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SWB: Reducing the Risk

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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In pool:

Don't think, Fall-in, no prep, no gear, on empty, static (1'50") + dynamic dragging drogue (1'50" = 75m), crawl out go home, do it again tomorrow x 3, day off, do it again tomorrow x 2, too tired, 2 days off.

In sea: same difference

Bad Day: Say it never happened
Good Day: Say it never happened
Every Day: Clean slate & carry no good or bad luggage

Seb
 
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This is what i am doing all the time. I don't believe in complicated programs. But i have noticed that i need more than one day rest because i start using packing . And my rib cage hearts after the packing . It takes about 2 days for the pain to goes away. I think that the pain is based on the stretch on the rib cage.
 
I don't think it is a good idea to do anything that hurts. If you have pain for 2 days after pack stretching, you are overdoing it or doing something wrong, and there is a risk of injury.
 
on empty, static (1'50") + dynamic dragging drogue (1'50" = 75m),

Sebastien can you translate that for me a little bit more? You do an FRC static of 1'50" and without breathing do a dynamic (dragging drogue????) for 1'50"/75M? Or is it some other variant of that? Thanks
 
I explained my opinion on pack stretching here...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/65340-dangers-dry-apnea-2.html#post630497
http://forums.deeperblue.net/beginner-freediving/70188-packing-hypercapnia.html#post632863
I wouldn't do it myself.

About the dive reflex, I find that being cold or having cold water on my face decreases the amount of time or distance that I can safely do, even if I am not very cold or shivering. This is consistent and even happens during dry statics. Is this a common experience? :confused:
 
I usually have an involuntary smile on my face when I dive without a mask. It feels so intimate and comfortable. I think the lack of good vision also contributes to a more relaxed quality of attention.
My best times happen when I just start to get a mild chill. This is usually accompanied by a sense of ease/excitement in the solar plexus region which translates into the feeling that I could stay down forever. This passes but whether it happens or not really defines a good dive for me. I am not pushing anywhere near the kinds of times you guys get though.
 
I explained my opinion on pack stretching here...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/65340-dangers-dry-apnea-2.html#post630497
http://forums.deeperblue.net/beginner-freediving/70188-packing-hypercapnia.html#post632863
I wouldn't do it myself.

About the dive reflex, I find that being cold or having cold water on my face decreases the amount of time or distance that I can safely do, even if I am not very cold or shivering. This is consistent and even happens during dry statics. Is this a common experience? :confused:
Great Thread.
I find my times/distances better as much as 50% at the end of a dive when I'm cold and almost shivering. For example (I am a beginner) dyn no fins just in water: max 36M. Later, "cold and shivering" about to leave pool: 60M on the same day. Same in the ocean spearfishing. I get such a good DR at the end that it's a real shame to get out due to cold..
 
Interesting. I think that for me, the increase in metabolic rate caused by trying to generate heat is greater than the decrease caused by the dive reflex.
 
Results from Anderson's program:

I started this looking for a way to increase bottom time beyond 2 minutes. For a year or so, I've followed a very laid back training program that matches my diving style. It worked great for a while, but seems to have plateaued. Anderson has had a lot of good ideas in the past, and the idea of focusing on training the DR seemed like a good one.

So far results on Anderson's program are interesting, but a little disappointing. I'm not doing exactly all that he suggests, the water drinking is hard and I'm using stiff fins. I'm 3 1/2 weeks into it, not enough to say much, but can feel my body adapting nicely to the training. I can get through to but not past the last rep in the 4th set of exercises(static, wall sprints) and expect to be into the 5th set pretty soon, big improvement from the first time I tried it. Its a very long work out and I have been cutting my recovery times short (finally found a spotter) and shorting some of the early reps to save time.
I think it will improve how long I need to recover from a dive, or at least my perception of it (not sure that's a good thing). Can't say yet whether it will provide a better DR.

Here's the funny thing. I normally do simulated dives, swim 25 real slow, hang up to 1:15 and swim back. Work up to slightly over two minutes total time. Since I started Andersons program, I haven't been able to get past 1:51 and that was a stretch. I'm beginning to think his program is responsible. Does this ring any bells?

Connor
 
Fogfish,

In answer to your question: static + dynamic ... same dive

I switch from static to dynamic phase after the first clear contraction

During my dynamic I drag a 'drogue' of sorts...the type that makes you take ~30 strokes for a 50m pool length. It takes me ~ 1'50" to cover 75m.


Seb
 
Its a very long work out and I have been cutting my recovery times short
That would raise a red flag as far as effecting your overall performance. If you don't give your body enough time between workouts to recover you end up weakening it and degrading your performance. I don't know enough about physiology on how different training regimens effect your static or dynamic performance.


Thanks Sebastien, that will help me tailor my training.
 
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Opps, I wasn't clear. I meant recovery time between reps. I've been doing roughly 2 minutes instead of three+, slightly longer on the tough reps.

Connor
 
Fogfish,

You may have to consider, depending on you training status, being careful about using someone else's program, especially since it presumes certain qualities have been developed to a high enough degree (i.e. the dive response, energy systems). I don't know if you've been doing for long or not, but if not, one of the biggest mistakes I see and hear about it, which beginners can't seem to grasp or accept as being a waste of their time investment, is to blindly follow the training routines of world record-holders, for example.

Seb
 
Thank you for the concern. I do not plan to follow what you posted exactly, but it at least gives me an idea of where I could be headed. Maybe try out 25% of the times that you posted and see where I stand in comparison.

At this point I have read about so many different training regimens that I have no clue what I will be doing once I get the OK to begin again from my doctors. After reading as much as I can understand I am leaning towards FRC diving. Since I am not going for any records I figure it won't be too difficult to be a proficient recreational freediver, I just need to map out a conservative and efficient regimen.

Again thank you for bringing up your concerns. It is giving me another opportunity to review my plans and the reasons I chose those methods, as well as how well they would actually work with me.
 
I have a small question about the packing. I have been doing it and like the results. What is the best way to practice it. It gives me maybe just the extra 10 % . Today i have a chance to tray it in open ocean and it feels good when you are going down to have the extra air.
 
DR, feeling relaxed without a mask, cold showers:

Ever noticed how people enter a beach on a warm day? You've been in really cold water and what you're seeing confuses you, this water isn't cold but you see raised arms, a little jump here and there as small waves threaten to move the water up their bodies by 100 mm. The sooner the face is under water, the sooner the feeling of peace, the feeling of being in the water.

It's the same when taking a cold shower. If the water hits my face first and I remain breathing, then the cold water doesn't feel cold, it's more a mental awareness that it is cold but irrelevant. I've always been skinny, always found it hard to get warm (not necessarily keep warm but get warm) but this (or yoga) has been the way to heat my body in the morning. After a shower like this, any day seems warm. I seem ready. Cold showers: they don't match the notion of boot camps, the army or brutality.

So I look at the people at the beach, with their hands raised to the side of their bodies, crunching their shoulders to keep as much of their bodies out of the water. What I see is their central nervous system (ever heard of Korean Baths - movement from hot to cold baths?); a (mild) feeling of constriction and panic.

Disclosure: I attended one of Sebastien's courses a couple of years ago. Being new to diving of any sort, I spent most of the time (on the surface) with that feeling of constriction and panic - just as most people experience when trying any new exercise routine (this feeling of anxiety during the commencement of exercise seems particularly strong in the overweight).
 
Here's a question for Seb, and others, to answer for me.

While reading through the different subjects in the latest DAN manual on freediving, there was disscussion on just what caused the diving relfex to kick in. One of the people there questioned the whole idea of cool water on the face. He said that this caused Braydacarida, slowing fo the heart rate, and while this was helpful it wasn't actually the "Dive Relfex".

It seemed that the only way to kick in the reflex was by trips to depth, either full-lung or empty-lung, to get the spleen to contract and release the extra red blood cels into the blood stream- which is what he did classify as "dive reflex".

I know that a few negative pressure dives at the begining of the day does WAY more for my breath hold times than any cold water on my face.

So, is it dive reflex or not to just slow your heart rate down, and can you train your spleen to contract through facial immersion alone?

Jon
 
What is the link (if any) between anxiety/anticipation (central nervous system pre-dive), response(s) (during dive) and endomorphism (post-dive)?

Sounds like you might have moved to avoiding the anxiety Sebastien but maximising the temperature difference? I get this from one of your earlier posts regarding preparation (lack of).

It might be possible to train for these temperature differences (hot to cold). But referring to your earlier posts, perhaps that just trains you to go from hot to cold water?
 
It seemed that the only way to kick in the reflex was by trips to depth, either full-lung or empty-lung, to get the spleen to contract and release the extra red blood cels into the blood stream- which is what he did classify as "dive reflex". ...

Diving Reflex is neither bradycardia, nor splenic contraction. It is a complex of physiological reactions and adoptions with the purpose to save oxygen consumption. It includes bradycardia, vasoconstriction of blood vessels in extremities, vasodilatation in core, blood shift to the lungs, splenic contraction, and other mechanisms. The effect of the splenic contraction is relatively minor - unlike at seals where the spleen contains huge volume of blood and hematocrit, human spleen contains just around 200-250ml and around 8% of total body red blood cells.

To your question, Jon - the guy was wrong also with the claim that depth is necessary for the splenic contraction. That's wrong, splenic contractions can be also simulated with face immersion. Look for example at this excellent document describing experiments with splenic contractions (using facial immersion):
Spleen volume and blood flow response to repeated breath-hold apneas -- Bakovic et al. 95 (4): 1460 -- Journal of Applied Physiology
 
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