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Switching to anaerobic process
- Thread starterSkindiver
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
aerobics
You mentioned something about this before, Eric. Since then, I've been doing an aerobic work out after my static practice. Repeat six minute statics, three minutes apart, sometimes give me a headache. The bike ride feels good.
Aloha
Bill
You mentioned something about this before, Eric. Since then, I've been doing an aerobic work out after my static practice. Repeat six minute statics, three minutes apart, sometimes give me a headache. The bike ride feels good.
Aloha
Bill
Yes Eric but don't forget that
And I am quoting here the following researcher:
David C. LaPorte
Department of Biochemistry
University of Minnesota
"Another theory (which is getting a lot of support) focuses on the rate of lactate consumption rather then production. Lactic acid which is generated in a working muscle is being consumed in other tissues, such as the liver and other muscles. The level of lactic acid in the blood is effected by both the rates of production and consumption. As the working muscle works harder, it produces more lactic acid. This is balanced by the abilities of the other tissues to consume more lactic acid. However, when the rate of production of lactic acid is greater then the fastest rate at which other tissues can consume it, blood lactic acid goes up dramatically"
And I add here: eliminating vast amounts of lactic acid by a mere post cool-down period (light aerobic session) is not always effective, especially if the athlete (myself) has a significant muscular development.
Another solution (something I am considering) would be cutting down any extra anaerobic training (heavy resistance training) which significantly helps to achieve that state (muscle hypertrophy or its maintenance), and improving aerobic capacity since we know that high levels of lactate/hydrogen ions will be detrimental to performance, and one of the key reasons for endurance training is to enable the body to perform at a greater pace with a minimal amount of lactate. This can be done by long steady runs, which will develop the aerobic capacity by means of capillarisation (formation of more small blood vessels, therefore enhancing 02 transport to the muscles) and by creating greater efficiency in the heart and lungs. If the aerobic capacity is greater, it means there will be more oxygen available to the working muscles and this should delay the onset of lactic acid at a given work intensity.
Nothing new here, but I just wanted to clarify my point of view.
So I guess I must catch up with the old times.
BTW I started taking yesterday sodium phosphate right before training (1 gr) and it did wonders. No more bloody trigger points in my neck. I was afraid of taking sodium bicarbonate because I heard bad stuff about its use (nausea and vomits) apart from the comment you made yesterday, Eric.
Regards, gerard.
And I am quoting here the following researcher:
David C. LaPorte
Department of Biochemistry
University of Minnesota
"Another theory (which is getting a lot of support) focuses on the rate of lactate consumption rather then production. Lactic acid which is generated in a working muscle is being consumed in other tissues, such as the liver and other muscles. The level of lactic acid in the blood is effected by both the rates of production and consumption. As the working muscle works harder, it produces more lactic acid. This is balanced by the abilities of the other tissues to consume more lactic acid. However, when the rate of production of lactic acid is greater then the fastest rate at which other tissues can consume it, blood lactic acid goes up dramatically"
And I add here: eliminating vast amounts of lactic acid by a mere post cool-down period (light aerobic session) is not always effective, especially if the athlete (myself) has a significant muscular development.
Another solution (something I am considering) would be cutting down any extra anaerobic training (heavy resistance training) which significantly helps to achieve that state (muscle hypertrophy or its maintenance), and improving aerobic capacity since we know that high levels of lactate/hydrogen ions will be detrimental to performance, and one of the key reasons for endurance training is to enable the body to perform at a greater pace with a minimal amount of lactate. This can be done by long steady runs, which will develop the aerobic capacity by means of capillarisation (formation of more small blood vessels, therefore enhancing 02 transport to the muscles) and by creating greater efficiency in the heart and lungs. If the aerobic capacity is greater, it means there will be more oxygen available to the working muscles and this should delay the onset of lactic acid at a given work intensity.
Nothing new here, but I just wanted to clarify my point of view.
So I guess I must catch up with the old times.
BTW I started taking yesterday sodium phosphate right before training (1 gr) and it did wonders. No more bloody trigger points in my neck. I was afraid of taking sodium bicarbonate because I heard bad stuff about its use (nausea and vomits) apart from the comment you made yesterday, Eric.
Regards, gerard.
Personally, I don't want microcapillaries in my muscles; I don't want my legs to receive any blood or oxygen at all, because every molecule of O2 that my legs consume, is one less molecule of O2 for my brain.
Instead, my method is to increase the amount of ATP/CP/Myoglobin in the legs by various training methods, thus increasing the amount of stored energy in the muscle. Further, teaching the muscle to function at more acidic levels means more stored energy can be stolen from glycolysis as well.
They say there is enough anaerobic energy stored in a (well trained) muscle to perform 50 seconds of maximum muscular effort, without any O2 from blood.
During a 4 minute constant weight dive, I don't think there is 50 seconds of maximum effort (more like 150 seconds of 30% effort), so it should be possible to store enough energy in the legs to perform the whole dive without any blood flow to the legs.
Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
Instead, my method is to increase the amount of ATP/CP/Myoglobin in the legs by various training methods, thus increasing the amount of stored energy in the muscle. Further, teaching the muscle to function at more acidic levels means more stored energy can be stolen from glycolysis as well.
They say there is enough anaerobic energy stored in a (well trained) muscle to perform 50 seconds of maximum muscular effort, without any O2 from blood.
During a 4 minute constant weight dive, I don't think there is 50 seconds of maximum effort (more like 150 seconds of 30% effort), so it should be possible to store enough energy in the legs to perform the whole dive without any blood flow to the legs.
Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
So Eric
Would you please tell me how the hell are you going to ascend with aerobically unfit legs? Anaerobically fit legs won't bring you up to the surface since we are talking about of the aerobic system primarily, not a short sprint perfomed in a different fluid which is air.
Regards, gerard.
Would you please tell me how the hell are you going to ascend with aerobically unfit legs? Anaerobically fit legs won't bring you up to the surface since we are talking about of the aerobic system primarily, not a short sprint perfomed in a different fluid which is air.
Regards, gerard.
When I did my deep dives in 2001, the whole ascent was anaerobic, virtually no blood was flowing into my legs.
Again, anaerobically trained legs have 50 seconds of maximum effort stored in them. A finswimmer can sprint 150m in 50 seconds of maximum effort. Remember Urchenko (sp?) did the record of 100m immersion in 31.XX seconds.
Each person can train whichever method he wants to, all we do is exchange opinions.
Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
Again, anaerobically trained legs have 50 seconds of maximum effort stored in them. A finswimmer can sprint 150m in 50 seconds of maximum effort. Remember Urchenko (sp?) did the record of 100m immersion in 31.XX seconds.
Each person can train whichever method he wants to, all we do is exchange opinions.
Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
Impressive speeds...
Gerard - it seems that you consider muscular development to be a more important factor in CW freediving than reducing 02 consumption?
Please tell us it isn't true.....
Gerard - it seems that you consider muscular development to be a more important factor in CW freediving than reducing 02 consumption?
Please tell us it isn't true.....
Hey Eric
I am not here either to argue nor to challenge your views about training. Each to its own. I still believe that the ascent could be done mostly aerobically except the initial ascent (kick up for 5-10 m, and the last 15 metres). But I repeat again this is my theory, in practice I would probably sprint all the way up, just o get the hell out of there
Anyway we should close this discussion right now since it's not taking us anywhere productive.:head
Ben, I am not a muscle head mate. I train with weights for HEALTH reasons, and if I also get the goodies of it the better. It is helping me in freediving a lot.
Regards my friends, gerard.
I am not here either to argue nor to challenge your views about training. Each to its own. I still believe that the ascent could be done mostly aerobically except the initial ascent (kick up for 5-10 m, and the last 15 metres). But I repeat again this is my theory, in practice I would probably sprint all the way up, just o get the hell out of there
Anyway we should close this discussion right now since it's not taking us anywhere productive.:head
Ben, I am not a muscle head mate. I train with weights for HEALTH reasons, and if I also get the goodies of it the better. It is helping me in freediving a lot.
Regards my friends, gerard.
discussion killed ?
Gerard. I was learning much from this discussion. The tone of the above sounded the death knell for this discussion. No one here owes anyone an explanation on anything. The mooted positive potential of switching to anaerobic processes for ascent has been discussed in detail. To ask how the hell... particularly of one with houses full of experience is not only disrespectful but also redundant.
It is clearly evident that one can ascend aerobically. The purpose of this discussion was to explore the benefits of ascending positively intentionally anaerobically.
Aside from this, its not your place to end any discussion. Not even if you had started it. Once its tossed into the public domain you have no title or rights to it and where it goes.
The written word can be misleading in terms of tone. The tone of Bens message however is clearly indicated by the huge grinning icon he has attached.
I too train with weights. If i'm going to utilise a anaerobic method of ascent then i want anaerobically strong legs. However to question the merits of aerobic fitness is again redundant even for the most uninitiated.
Skindiver.
Gerard. I was learning much from this discussion. The tone of the above sounded the death knell for this discussion. No one here owes anyone an explanation on anything. The mooted positive potential of switching to anaerobic processes for ascent has been discussed in detail. To ask how the hell... particularly of one with houses full of experience is not only disrespectful but also redundant.
It is clearly evident that one can ascend aerobically. The purpose of this discussion was to explore the benefits of ascending positively intentionally anaerobically.
Aside from this, its not your place to end any discussion. Not even if you had started it. Once its tossed into the public domain you have no title or rights to it and where it goes.
It would be most appropriate for you to refrain from posting or viewing the thread any further if you felt it was of no further value to you.
The written word can be misleading in terms of tone. The tone of Bens message however is clearly indicated by the huge grinning icon he has attached.
This is neither argumentative not challenging and should not have invoked a defensive response.Please tell us it isn't true.....
I too train with weights. If i'm going to utilise a anaerobic method of ascent then i want anaerobically strong legs. However to question the merits of aerobic fitness is again redundant even for the most uninitiated.
Skindiver.
Integration
OK, I think I've got it figured out now . . . it seems that I should do lots of sprinting toward the end of my hypoxic intervals, and then drink a big glass of red wine when I'm done with my training session (to make me feel better and to avoid taking too many capsules), and when I'm feeling particularly overtrained, take a week off and just drink the wine.
I can definitely see why this will avoid burn-out. I'm looking forward to training hard already.
OK, I think I've got it figured out now . . . it seems that I should do lots of sprinting toward the end of my hypoxic intervals, and then drink a big glass of red wine when I'm done with my training session (to make me feel better and to avoid taking too many capsules), and when I'm feeling particularly overtrained, take a week off and just drink the wine.
I can definitely see why this will avoid burn-out. I'm looking forward to training hard already.
Following Eric's posts about anaerobic work, I have tried out various combinations of speed/effort at various stages in the dive.
I noticed that when sprinting the last 15-20m of a constant weight dive I surface feeling tired but exhilarated, rather than relaxed but spaced-out.
But, be careful...
After a morning in the water, I made 2 successive dives to -37m. Each time I tried to sprint the last part.
The first went perfectly and I surfaced with burning legs, but feeling great. I swam a bit to get rid of the lactic acid and tried a 2nd dive.
I was pretty physically tired however, and this time, upon surfacing I had a samba (my first ever, incidentally). I think the reason is that I was 'out of breath' from the sprint as well as from the apnea and that I panted superficially instead of breathing deeply.
I reckon you can dive sloooowly without being too physically fit, but if you want to try Eric's sprinting technique then make sure you're up to it.
I'm off to work out!
Al
I noticed that when sprinting the last 15-20m of a constant weight dive I surface feeling tired but exhilarated, rather than relaxed but spaced-out.
But, be careful...
After a morning in the water, I made 2 successive dives to -37m. Each time I tried to sprint the last part.
The first went perfectly and I surfaced with burning legs, but feeling great. I swam a bit to get rid of the lactic acid and tried a 2nd dive.
I was pretty physically tired however, and this time, upon surfacing I had a samba (my first ever, incidentally). I think the reason is that I was 'out of breath' from the sprint as well as from the apnea and that I panted superficially instead of breathing deeply.
I reckon you can dive sloooowly without being too physically fit, but if you want to try Eric's sprinting technique then make sure you're up to it.
I'm off to work out!
Al
One big dive only.
Yes Alastair.
I use this technique for one big ( comp ) dive only, and only if you are up to it strength wize ( anaerobically strong and enduring)
I would'nt try it for spearing, or recreational diving at all. Its pointless then.
Usually after a single max effort i get out anyhow and bank the confidence, earn interest on it, and do it again next weekend.
Skin.
Yes Alastair.
I use this technique for one big ( comp ) dive only, and only if you are up to it strength wize ( anaerobically strong and enduring)
I would'nt try it for spearing, or recreational diving at all. Its pointless then.
Usually after a single max effort i get out anyhow and bank the confidence, earn interest on it, and do it again next weekend.
Skin.
Thanks for the advice Skindiver.
On this subject, I'll be doing a number of comps this year, and I wanted to know what people advised for warmups for CW.
More than any other sport, you need to be be prepared (relaxed, ventillated, with diving reflex kicked in), but without having knackered yourself.
I guess negatives help without tiring. Does anyone do at least one test dive?
Al
On this subject, I'll be doing a number of comps this year, and I wanted to know what people advised for warmups for CW.
More than any other sport, you need to be be prepared (relaxed, ventillated, with diving reflex kicked in), but without having knackered yourself.
I guess negatives help without tiring. Does anyone do at least one test dive?
Al
I do 2 warmup dives and I usually swim down and pull the rope up. If I have a heavy weighted line I pull the line both up and down.
The first dive I do a hang at about 20m, the dive time is about 2.20. (~40% of target depth)
The second I go to about 30-33m but I don't hang there and the divetime is about 1.40. (~60% of target depth)
For me it's important to not push it on the warmupdives and also not to get any lactid acid buildup.
The first dive I do a hang at about 20m, the dive time is about 2.20. (~40% of target depth)
The second I go to about 30-33m but I don't hang there and the divetime is about 1.40. (~60% of target depth)
For me it's important to not push it on the warmupdives and also not to get any lactid acid buildup.