Sunday, December 15, 2019
  • Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 40,000+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 496,000+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,300+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

Taimen - Russian pneumovacuum speargun

fabio70

Active Member
Mar 12, 2008
11
0
36
Naples Napoli
Hi all, i found a about this interesting gun on youtube and i'm looking for some further informations

The gun is manufactured by the russian Taimen and is supported by a russian forum
I did write to manufacturer but had a very short answer.


Due to different language it's difficult for me to understand so much on apox.ru, but i found also some pics of disassembled gun and it looks like very innovative and interesting to me.

Taimen doesn't seem have resellers outside Russia, so i would like to know impressions from people that have/use the gun and if they know if it's possible to buy it in Europe (where, prices...).

Thanks in advance.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

vrokhlenko

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2002
137
18
108
54
USA, NJ
Visit site
Thanks for the info that site is really interesting, do you have the gun?
Hello!

Judging from the review it is a high-quality gun (better choice of materials than Italian/French air guns since it uses stainless steel barrel and titanium trigger parts and good metal lathe work) that comes in different sizes (length) from 50 to 70 cm. I do not think you can buy it outside the territory of the former USSR. My quick search even did not show any places where you can buy it in Russia or Ukraine. I am not even sure that it is still produced.

In general, in Russia/Ukraine there are several 'standard' gun designs that anybody can use in manufacturing. Some implement it better, some worse. Choice of materials/tolerances play vary important role in final quality of the product.
 
OP
OP
F

fabio70

Active Member
Mar 12, 2008
11
0
36
Naples Napoli
Taimen still exist, they have a site on apox.ru and answered, very shortly to my email, but seems they don't sell outside Russia. I would like to by the gun that is still produced (as i understood from their email) but it's dangerous to buy and having not support after.

So i was looking for further information... but i'm realizing that effectively the gun is not reselled in europe and also quite unknown in russia too (but i don't know how many russian users are on this forum, probably few).
 
Last edited:

vrokhlenko

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2002
137
18
108
54
USA, NJ
Visit site
You are right! The factory is in Cheliabinsk, but they do sell through Apox.ru. Their e-mail [email protected]. Here are the link with prices in Russian rubles:
http://apox.ru/content/view/635/138/1/1/.

The most expensive gun costs 350 US dollars, length - 1 meter.
Even if they ship it to you, you would have problems with spare parts.
I would stay away (but I am biased - Russian is my native language, after all and I have extensive experience using Soviet-made guns)
 

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
I do not have one of these. Considerable design effort has gone into making the gun light enough to float even though it has a small diameter outer tank. The reduced reservoir volume will give the gun a high compression ratio which affects the power output, but the gun is not designed to be a "big banger", so does not need it. Here the emphasis is on manoeuvrability and having a compact weapon. Normally a gun of these very small dimensions would not float due to inadequate water displacement, however the internal parts are very small and appear to be well made, which has cut a lot of unnecessary weight out of the gun. The inner stainless steel barrel is machined down where any extra thickness is not needed and the compact muzzle uses a hydraulic shock absorber, I assume all the holes in the front end are the water outlets for the absorber, so that also means less weight.

The use of rubber elements as springs is a little quirky (line release lever, muzzle shock absorber reset?, I am thinking of that little silvery sliding metal knob on the side of the muzzle) and the white plastic injection moulded parts may be rather delicate, it will depend on the type of plastic used. The pump inlet valve cover is only a moulded bung, it does not screw in, which is a little disappointing. However I never trust screw tail caps and rinse my guns out with them removed, so not such a problem.

The vertical sliding column sear is biased by the internal air pressure, which means that the trigger mechanism has only one moving part in addition to the plastic trigger, which is rather ingenious. The piston catching step is small, somewhat like the RPS-3, but here it holds on a 90 degree step whereas the RPS-3 has a 60 degree angled face which is blocked from being pushed aside by a boss that inserts in the rear of the disc type sear. The similarity is the sears move up and down in their releasing action.

As you are in Italy I do not think that you would have trouble getting a gun to you, at least you are living on the same continent! The manufacturer may be glad of some extra exposure in the West.

You would need spare spears (at least two, you can always have others made) and spare seals, particularly the spear to muzzle seal which is not just a simple "O" ring. Like all spearguns if you treat it with care then it should last, particularly as non-rusting parts have been used in this one (not sure about the handle screws, but they can be replaced if not stainless).

Many Russian spearguns are only used in freshwater, so often have plated or bare steel parts. Maybe OK for that type of service, but not so good in saltwater. I do not think that the "Huchen" (Taimen) will suffer from these problems.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
F

fabio70

Active Member
Mar 12, 2008
11
0
36
Naples Napoli
Popgun many thanks for your answer, that's a real review of the gun.

Complain with you about the handle, it's the only thing i don't like of the gun (beautiful shape and inclination, but bad assembling system) perhaps the material is strong enough (i don't know but it doesn't seem from pics).

Despect to the impressing video, i think too the gun is not designed to be a "big banger", but it's not what i want and what i need. Tuna it's not my usually catch (sargos, bass... are) and big fish upper 3 kg are not usual encounter in Italy, so 4 mt shot range it's enough for me and i prefer manoeuvrability, compact weapon and (i add) very clear shot line for aiming, quality that the gun seems to have.

However as you described the gun seems a jewel for me, adding also that i heard the trigger mechanism it's titanium.

It's a real shame that the gun is not reselled in europe, cose in italy there are many good guns but there is nothing similar and except the new omer airbalete, pneumatic guns are equal to 30 years ago.
 

vrokhlenko

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2002
137
18
108
54
USA, NJ
Visit site
Hey, Fabio!

I go to Mediterranian for spearfishing practically every year (last 2 years I went to Korfu, Greece. I have also been to Corsica and Italy). I also go to my native Ukraine once in a while. So it might be a (remote) possibility that I can get it for you. If they can send it to my relatives from Russia to Ukraine, that is! PM if you are interested.
 

vrokhlenko

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2002
137
18
108
54
USA, NJ
Visit site
Thanks a lot but i think it's to much complicate and sill i will have no support for spare parts.
It probably is! I myself need spare parts for my Cyrano and in the USA it is next to impossible to get.
Anyway, I am always willing to help my fellow spearfishers. so if you change your mind, let me know. If you are technically inclined and can work the lathe, you might be OK with the gun like Taymen. Usually O-rings is all you need.
 
OP
OP
F

fabio70

Active Member
Mar 12, 2008
11
0
36
Naples Napoli
Wich parts you need, i could post some link to online shop where to buy or simply ask, but i don't know about shipping costs.

For cyrano parts first try here and for shipping here. You can do a massive order with friends.

Try also here, both have very low prices.

Hope this help, don't warry asking more you are wellcome.
 
Last edited:

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
The plastic handle has been made that way to minimise weight and it also contains a foam buoyancy element, however according to Hanter's report it is not a closed cell foam but an open cell type, so not really very good for buoyancy once it takes up water! This foam cell type may have been changed since then, so it is something that you could ask the manufacturer. The plastic handle had to be a clamshell moulding to allow the installation of the trigger, line release and safety lever which is the black item just under the trigger. That way their respective pivot pins can be trapped in the moulding halves during assembly and you do not see the ends of the pins, nor can they fall out.

Their web photos shows plenty of guns in various sizes and they have been around for some years, so I expect that the handle has stood the test of time (so far anyway!). If you think of a typical pneumatic speargun as a clock then this is a watch from the size of parts perspective. I do not think the cylindrical sear is made from titanium, there was no mention in the reports that I can remember, but I may be wrong. Titanium is lighter than steel, is strong and tough, but not good for wear unless it has special coatings. Stainless steel would be better, you require something hard in a sear of this type to avoid blunting the edge of the piston retention step, plus the mechanism is swimming in oil, so corrosion is not a problem.

The gun is relatively expensive to buy, but even though it is a "factory gun" the production quantities cannot compare with those for the Italian models in terms of their sales volume, so less guns produced means a higher price per unit. The most expensive PV models have the power regulator R (10% power decrease) and rear tying of the shooting line M, which I guess means a line slide, otherwise they are single power and a front tied line. Spears have integral tips or thread attached tips.

A reseller in Europe would have to take a portion of the sales price, so if you can buy direct from the manufacturer then it would be cheaper, unless there was a volume discount on unit prices for a distributor. After looking at the high price of the "Airbalete" other pneumatic spearguns now seem cheap, although you do get a reel as standard equipment! If you shoot a really big one then it gets the reel and the gun.
 

vrokhlenko

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2002
137
18
108
54
USA, NJ
Visit site
Fabio, thanks for the info. Tuttopescamare is a fun company to have business with. They sent me two DIFFERENT Pegaso fins but corrected themselves later on! But now their shipping to the US (probably after dealing with me) is 150 Euros. All I need is set of O-rings (I actually need one for the piston) but it is not sold separately. I disassembled/assembled the gun many times and installed different US-made o-rings, but one of them is of a special shape that can not be obtained from anywhere but Mares.
In general ALL mail-order European companies have a minimal shipping fee to the USA wich is very high. What I need is a part that can be put into envelope and sent to the USA for 1 Euro.

I have two Cyranos and one of them leaks air, another one is fine. I myself was intereste in getting a Russian gun but like I said you have to be ready to service it yourself and even enhance/modify it. Since my father was making and designing guns for many years and I can still rely on his help and advice, I just myself can go ahead and bite the bullet
 
OP
OP
F

fabio70

Active Member
Mar 12, 2008
11
0
36
Naples Napoli
If you are technically inclined and can work the lathe, you might be OK with the gun like Taymen. Usually O-rings is all you need.
Why it's necessary to be technically inclined and can work the lathe, to be OK with the gun like Taymen?

The plastic handle has been made that way to minimise weight and it also contains a foam buoyancy element, however according to Hanter's report it is not a closed cell foam but an open cell type, so not really very good for buoyancy once it takes up water! This foam cell type may have been changed since then, so it is something that you could ask the manufacturer. The plastic handle had to be a clamshell moulding to allow the installation of the trigger, line release and safety lever which is the black item just under the trigger. That way their respective pivot pins can be trapped in the moulding halves during assembly and you do not see the ends of the pins, nor can they fall out.

Their web photos shows plenty of guns in various sizes and they have been around for some years, so I expect that the handle has stood the test of time (so far anyway!). If you think of a typical pneumatic speargun as a clock then this is a watch from the size of parts perspective. I do not think the cylindrical sear is made from titanium, there was no mention in the reports that I can remember, but I may be wrong. Titanium is lighter than steel, is strong and tough, but not good for wear unless it has special coatings. Stainless steel would be better, you require something hard in a sear of this type to avoid blunting the edge of the piston retention step, plus the mechanism is swimming in oil, so corrosion is not a problem.

The gun is relatively expensive to buy, but even though it is a "factory gun" the production quantities cannot compare with those for the Italian models in terms of their sales volume, so less guns produced means a higher price per unit. The most expensive PV models have the power regulator R (10% power decrease) and rear tying of the shooting line M, which I guess means a line slide, otherwise they are single power and a front tied line. Spears have integral tips or thread attached tips.

A reseller in Europe would have to take a portion of the sales price, so if you can buy direct from the manufacturer then it would be cheaper, unless there was a volume discount on unit prices for a distributor. After looking at the high price of the "Airbalete" other pneumatic spearguns now seem cheap, although you do get a reel as standard equipment! If you shoot a really big one then it gets the reel and the gun.
Thanks for further info, i'm really interested by this gun, i'll take time to think about also about shipping from Russia.

A reseller in Europe would have to take a portion of the sales price, so if you can buy direct from the manufacturer then it would be cheaper, unless there was a volume discount on unit prices for a distributor.
This is right until you have to buy the gun, but think about when you need only the piston.

After looking at the high price of the "Airbalete" other pneumatic spearguns now seem cheap, although you do get a reel as standard equipment! If you shoot a really big one then it gets the reel and the gun.
I haven't airbalete and actually it's the most expensive pneumatic in Italy. I have seen in a shop and it seems really beautifull gun (but not innovative like russian one neither pneumovacuum). However it hasn't still passed "the test of time", so we don't know if effectively worths the price.

I think also omer hasn't a pneumatic experience like mares, cressi or seac (this one i prefer above all) and airbalete for now it's only a beta test aka the newest windows relases, it surely need patch and i don't like to be a beta tester payng that price (this is my personal opinion).

Soon i think we will have news from seac and also mares seems working on a new pneumatic (someone, me to, should like a mirage gun remake). We will see...
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
F

fabio70

Active Member
Mar 12, 2008
11
0
36
Naples Napoli
Fabio, thanks for the info. Tuttopescamare is a fun company to have business with. They sent me two DIFFERENT Pegaso fins but corrected themselves later on! But now their shipping to the US (probably after dealing with me) is 150 Euros. All I need is set of O-rings (I actually need one for the piston) but it is not sold separately. I disassembled/assembled the gun many times and installed different US-made o-rings, but one of them is of a special shape that can not be obtained from anywhere but Mares.
In general ALL mail-order European companies have a minimal shipping fee to the USA wich is very high. What I need is a part that can be put into envelope and sent to the USA for 1 Euro.
Mmmm... I'm sorry for inconvenience, i had business with both shops and never had one problem. Tuttopescamare has great volume of business, probably it depends on it. However i'll look in Naples for a complete set of oring and let you know.
 

vrokhlenko

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2002
137
18
108
54
USA, NJ
Visit site
Fabio!

In your previous posting only the first quote is mine, the rest belong to other person. So I will answer, why you need to be able to worl the lathe.

First of all, you might need to be able to make your own spears (harpoones), since they tend to get lost or bent. Some reviews of taymen complained about spear quality, especially those that come as one piece. So you need to be able to make a back end part and a tip. For that you need to make two internal threads (one in end part, one in the tip) and two external threads (on the shaft of a spear). External threads are made without a lathe, for internals you would need a lathe. Ofcourse you migth use an available tips for European guns abut you will still need to make an external thread on the front of the shaft. However the back end that goes into the handle is of a special shape and has to be custom made. I do not believe it is of the same shape as European guns have.

Secondly, trigger mechanism always has issues. Maybe you would not need a lathe for that, but you would need access to materials and prepared to alot of filing. Also some metals in pairs corrode quickly so you need an access to titanium which is not very easy to worl with. Aluminum alloys in combination with stainless steel for example, corrode very badly.
 

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
Fabio, I have never had a metal body piston wear out, the only things that go are the seals, but you need to change the oil every two years as it gradually gets contaminated. Thin oil is used because it sloshes around inside the gun keeping everything lubricated unlike grease which can be gradually pushed away from the spot that it is meant to be lubricating.

If the seals are "O" rings then local ones can be sourced of the same size, few people make special size "O" rings, most "O" rings are standard sizes, metric or imperial. Only unusual "O" ring is the Mares body tube "O" ring, however other "O" rings can usually be stretched to fit, but you need the correct cross section of the rubber ring to get the proper sealing action. As the Italian made guns are all clones they probably all use the same body tube "O" ring (for 40 mm tank diameter guns). Seac's gun is a revamp of the original Mares Sten which for a period was also called the Reef when the Sten 87 came out (Competition Line).

You are right about the "Airbalete", probably best to let them be sorted out for a year by first-up owners. My prediction is that oil will be added to them eventually, even though the special grease used will work for a while. While handy to work on a dry gun (no pile of clean but soon to become oily rags), it is nice to know the oil reaches all the internal areas if you up-end the gun from time to time during storage periods and give it a shake.
 

popgun pete

Well-Known Member
Jul 30, 2008
3,377
744
153
Australia
I have to revise some of my earlier comments after studying more photographs of the Таймень "Huchen" PVRM gun. The silvery fore-aft sliding knob on the muzzle is a quick line release device that is sprung loaded by the small rubber block mounted directly behind it. When you pull the knob back the shooting line can be removed as it was previously held by the front tip of this sliding element which is narrowed down to form a catch that traps the shooting line in the annular groove at the front end of the muzzle. This form of line attachment replaces the threading of the line through an anchor position which is usually incorporated in the front line hook by drilling a hole through it or providing a hole in the plastic moulding. The shooting line used is a stretchy type of thin line (some sort of monofilament?) developed by the gun's manufacturer which comes in various thicknesses, 1.4 to 2.5 mm diameter, 30 to 70 kg breaking strain.

The inner barrel's sliding piston has a large polyurethane bush on the front end which is most likely the shock absorber as well as the means to hold the spear in the barrel with the gun loaded. The rubber vacuum seal at the muzzle, a purpose moulded cuff, probably helps to hold the spear in as well both due to a degree of friction and the partial vacuum in the inner barrel. The narrow metal tail of the spear will contact the face of the metal piston so that when the gun fires the polyurethane bush will not bulge outwards from the effort of pushing the spear forwards, the driving force coming through the metal to metal contact rather than through the walls of the polyurethane bush. If the latter occurred then the bulged polyurethane bush would tend to brake the piston on the wall of the inner barrel and thus slow down the shot. If you look at the Seabear's piston system, which also uses a polyurethane front bush, you will see that the reverse tapered projection on the titanium piston's nose which secures the bush in position has a small cup shape that receives the conical point on the extreme rear of the spear tail when the spear is pushed down the barrel, essentially the same idea to create a metal to metal driving contact.

A much smaller polyurethane bush is mounted on the spear tail for the increased shoulder diameter of the shaft retention step. This helps to ease the passage of the spear tail on the way through the rubber vacuum seal at the muzzle without damaging it and also stops the line slide jamming on the shaft tail at the end of the spear's flight. This description only applies to the rear tied "harpoon" version of the gun, the front tied version dispenses with any stop on the spear tail as there is no line slide required with the shooting line tied off just behind the spear tip through a number of transverse holes.

A user manual showing all these aspects can be seen on the www.apoxy.ru web-site under the "Full-Passport version 2005" heading which has 13 "pages", the last of which takes you back to the price list for the guns and accessories.

Hopefully someone who actually owns one of these can fill in any other details that have not been covered here, such as whether the air flow during the shot has to pass through the hole in the sear which would tend to throttle the shot. The optional power regulator is a port in a transverse rod that revolves through ninety degrees to be either open or closed and is located immediately behind the sear, so if the air flows through this regulator port then it must also pass through the sear as well. With no schematic drawing the air flow passages in the rear of the gun are a mystery in terms of the inner barrel screwing into the rear bushing which houses the trigger mechanism; those connecting threads have to be in front of the vertical sliding column sear, so how does the air from the front air tank get to pass around the rear of the piston and the power regulator, if one is fitted. By some drilled holes no doubt, but just where are they positioned?
 
DeeperBlue.com - The Worlds Largest Community Dedicated To Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing

ABOUT US

ISSN 1469-865X | Copyright © 1996 - 2019 deeperblue.net limited.

DeeperBlue.com is the World's Largest Community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving, Spearfishing and Diving Travel.

We've been dedicated to bringing you the freshest news, features and discussions from around the underwater world since 1996.

ADVERT