The beginning or end of freediving?

[Simos]

Ok it's a dramatic thread title lol

I just came across the below which I hadn't seen before, and the implications for freediving could be potentially important.

Who knows, maybe as a safety mechanism or just as a way for the average Joe one day to take a pill and enjoy lond recreational dives without scuba equipment? :martial

Scientists Invent Oxygen Particle That If Injected, Allows You To Live Without Breathing | TechWench.com

Newly developed oxygen particles injected into blood could save lives | Fox News

 

[Azrael3000]

Just one thought about this, how do they get rid of the CO2?

 

[Simos]

Just one thought about this, how do they get rid of the CO2?

They didn't... From the second article:

While this feat is extraordinary, Kheir noted the microparticles should only be administered for a limited period of time – between 15 and 30 minutes.

“We limited it to 15 minutes for a reason,” Kheir said. *“The particles don’t really exchange carbon dioxide at all. *Carbon dioxide is normally carried in the plasma. *Most patients don’t die from high carbon dioxide, but they definitely die from low oxygen. *It’s only intended to stabilize patients for a period of time while another procedure is being done.”

 

[Erki]

It seems to be very effective for emergency medicine, but may be to dangerous for everyday diving. But definitely it may be used as doping, but 1 hour rule helps here.

 

[Ghassan]

Great title Simos, i can see that such a shot can be a must to an emergency room but i dont think it would ever be usefull to a diver unless its a welder with w suite on where he still have room to breath or at least move his lungs ....

but if one uses his imagination and think of a diving pill .....:waterwork simply great

 

[trux]

I do not see any considerable advantage in comparison to breathing pure oxygene prior the dive. I suspect that under pressure, the extra O2 in the shot might have similarly toxic effect as pure O2, and in both cases your dive time would be limited by hypercapnia, not by hypoxia. Additionally, reading about the problems they had with bubbles at the initial tests, I suspect the shot might also seriously increase the risk of DCS. And frankly told, I'd consider much safer having a breath or two of O2 than shooting myself intravenously with some synthetic stuff, whose side effects are not known.

 

[Simos]

I do not see any considerable advantage in comparison to breathing pure oxygene prior the dive. I suspect that under pressure, the extra O2 in the shot might have similarly toxic effect as pure O2, and in both cases your dive time would be limited by hypercapnia, not by hypoxia. Additionally, reading about the problems they had with bubbles at the initial tests, I suspect the shot might also seriously increase the risk of DCS. And frankly told, I'd consider much safer having a breath or two of O2 than shooting myself intravenously with some synthetic stuff, whose side effects are not known.

Hmmm not sure it's entirely true Trux - I am no scientist of course but it did seem to me that there are two very significant differences with breathing pure O2 (at least if the technology is further developed):

1. With the 'shot' (or maybe pill in the future?) approach you could control the release of O2 (unlike breathing oxygen) and if you can get a steady slow release you might be able to sustain a longer dive. Other advantages is that it might be possible to dive with a decent DR (i.e. sustained low but enough level of O2) and you could 'top up' with a further pill/shot

2. It's potentially a lot more portable than an O2 tank so you could use it at various stages of the dive e.g. while swimming on the ascent or if you are in trouble during your dive (e.g. get tangled in a line)

Obviously at this stage these are quite theoretical for now but I could see how they could conceivably be developed to something that does make a real difference.

Probably they won't though as there won't be enough commercial interest to adapt these technologies for diving purposes...

 

[trux]

I do not think you are right, Simos. First of all, I doubt the substance would work through the intestinal tract. It is a kind of O2 carrier similar to hemoglobin, and I do not see how it could efficiently work when ingested. Then, I did not see anywhere in the article (but it is already a few days I read it, so I may have forgotten), any way to regulate the release of oxygene, other than controlled continual injection of the substance, which would be highly unpractical under water. Then, you can't forget that you are injecting unnatural substance into your bloodstream, and it may provoke a number of secondary effects, including violent alergical reactions. Even if a non-medical applications in a non-emergency case were acceptable (which I doubt), it is unlikely you could apply it more than once. So why taking all that hassle and risks for some extra minute or two, maximally a couple of them (before the extreme hypercapnia brings you out or kills you)? And even if repetitive shooting yourself would be possible, I'd like to see you doing it in water

Taking a breath from an O2 bottle is much easier, without difficulties, you can repeat it many times, and in fact it poses much less risk. There are small 0.5 - 3 liter bottles that you can put into your float and breathe from them definitely much easier than shooting yourself with some wierd stuff. Not that I'd recommend to anyone freediving on O2 - I am completely against it (you can check out some relevant threads here on DB to see why), but using this substance for freediving is an even bigger nonsense, and a much greater risk.

 

[Erki]

In principle these are tiny oxygen bubbles trapped into lipid (fat) particles. So everything is quite natural, but the problem can be the stability of this colloidal system. Second aspect is that the amount of oxygen that can be administrated by this way is limited and not very large. 1L of normal oxygenated blood (Hg 150 g/l) contains almost the same amount of oxygen as air at 1 atm and room temperature. So if we inject 1L of this thing and it contains 50% of pure oxygen by volume, then we increase blood oxygen content only about 50% (estimate 5l of blood).

 

[trux]

Personally I do not consider having 1 liter of extra fat circulating in my veins for very natural and doubt the organism would like it much. Now that's for one dive. Do couple of dives and you'll have to remove all the blood and replace it with the lipids. It's simply a nonsense. If you don't like freediving on a breath of plain air, get a scuba tank

 

[Simos]

Well of course I don't see it hitting the shelves any time soon (probably ever) - just posted it as I found it interesting and there is a small chance it could somehow affect freediving (maybe doping if anything lol)

In a sci-fi or futuristic world though and while you talk of using scuba tanks instead, maybe a device that you could wear on your body that could inject some O2 into your bloodstream (and maybe somehow remove CO2) could be a lot more convenient than carrying scuba tanks around and could boost dive durations with no tanks just about enough to be a perfect middle ground between freediving and scuba diving.

Of course this thing would still need to store O2 somewhere etc but I think there are still potential advantages to this approach than using tanks and lungs.

It would be a bit like rebreather but for the blood

 

[tycoonelyk]

I completely agree with trux on this one. Also I would assume that it would have similar effects on your mind like hyperventilating (not feeling the need to breath and having to much co2 in your system and eventually passing out)

And if a product like this does come out, I'm sure they would do urine tests at free diving competitions to make sure no one is trying to get an edge over the competition.

 

[tycoonelyk]

All new in 2013, introducing to the market, BLOOD diving! No more regulators! No more lengthy hoses! Just a tank of freshly oxygenated blood! Just stick and entry needle in one arm and an exit needle in the other and you won't have to bother with breathing on BLOOD! Decrease down times by 10-20 minutes! *insert cool flashy video and or pics* (Side effects include pain and possible skin tearing from the needles, and in most cases, shark attacks)

 

[Simos]

Well it's all theoretical but since we're on the subject, out of curiosity if you could take a pill with no side effects and have an easy 15 min dive, wouldn't you go for it?

 

[tycoonelyk]

If it I had an exact time limit so I could set a timer on when to come up? Hell yeah I would!

 

[tycoonelyk]

Maybe every free diver male should have babies with free diver females, and eventually over a billion years we would develope gills!

 

[Simos]

Maybe every free diver male should have babies with free diver females, and eventually over a billion years we would develope gills!

I think it's more likely we'd develop fins

 

[tycoonelyk]

and a layer of blubber for the colder waters =D

 

[Erki]

Some comments:
Urine tests would not show the usage of this stuff.
20 minute dives are obviously to optimistic with this substance, this effect is more likely up to 30%.
This is not an oral pill and problably will never become.

I did some search for this topic and found that similar technologies have been tested since 70-s, but not much real applications to date.

 

[Azrael3000]

Maybe every free diver male should have babies with free diver females, and eventually over a billion years we would develope gills!

Is that your pickup line on freediving spots? :chatup