Question Too early contractions (5m) in the ocean?

[Waterbear]

Hi fam!

I am hitting a wall: Every time I dive in the ocean I encounter contractions waaaay too early (~5-6m depth, after a few seconds). They are immediate and fast interval despite trying all types of breathe-up, relaxations, duck-dives, FIM or CWT, hangs...
In pool I can do 40m DNF/DYN without urge to breathe, and 60m quite relax with just a few contractions. In dry STA I can do 4min+ with contractions only starting around 2min ...so I am not sure what is going on. I'd expect to feel a slight urge to breathe around 35sec worst case scenario...not contractions so early.

I can go down to -15m without much trouble technique-wise: duck-dive feels clean, frenzel feels good, finning is not too intense, head straight. But I have to pass through all these contractions that feel quite unpleasant for ~90% of the dive.

I suspect it could be psychological: the ocean here is very cold and grey...not super friendly. But a lot of other beginners I dive with have no issues of this type...and even if I feel sometimes a bit challenged in the ocean, I'm not sure that explains a drop of 95% in pre-contractions time. Maybe it's the vertical position...honestly I have no idea.

I'm not sure what to do about it. Chill hangs do not seem working, and my constant improvements in EQ, DNF/DYN seem having no effect on this. It's regular as clockwork. The frustration kinda ruins every dive by now and I am worried I'm just banging my head on the wall and building up more bad association with open waters.

Any idea on what is going on? If so, any idea on how to prevent this?

Thank you

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Hi fam!

I am hitting a wall: Every time I dive in the ocean I encounter contractions waaaay too early (~5-6m depth, after a few seconds). They are immediate and fast interval despite trying all types of breathe-up, relaxations, duck-dives, FIM or CWT, hangs...
In pool I can do 40m DNF/DYN without urge to breathe, and 60m quite relax with just a few contractions. In dry STA I can do 4min+ with contractions only starting around 2min ...so I am not sure what is going on. I'd expect to feel a slight urge to breathe around 35sec worst case scenario...not contractions so early.

I can go down to -15m without much trouble technique-wise: duck-dive feels clean, frenzel feels good, finning is not too intense, head straight. But I have to pass through all these contractions that feel quite unpleasant for ~90% of the dive.

I suspect it could be psychological: the ocean here is very cold and grey...not super friendly. But a lot of other beginners I dive with have no issues of this type...and even if I feel sometimes a bit challenged in the ocean, I'm not sure that explains a drop of 95% in pre-contractions time. Maybe it's the vertical position...honestly I have no idea.

I'm not sure what to do about it. Chill hangs do not seem working, and my constant improvements in EQ, DNF/DYN seem having no effect on this. It's regular as clockwork. The frustration kinda ruins every dive by now and I am worried I'm just banging my head on the wall and building up more bad association with open waters.

Any idea on what is going on? If so, any idea on how to prevent this?

Thank you

I'd need to see your diving to be sure, but typically contractions on the descent (you really shouldn't have any descent contractions to any depth) are caused by 1 or more of 4 common things..

Poor EQ technique: using too much force with any kind of EQ will create lots of tension. Especially valsalva, which should be avoided as it's extremely forceful.

Shifting too much air: again part of EQ, typically you need to have some air in the mouth to EQ. If you're moving this air from lungs to mouth with too much force or in a very sloppy way, if can trigger contractions.

Full Vs empty lungs training.. DYN and STA on full lungs won't build comfort at depth.. you need to practice relaxing with 1/2 to fully empty lungs.. do no contractions STA and easy DYN on (in your case diving quite shallow) 1/2 lungs.. probably you're very tense once your compressed.. you need to work on this without the stress of actual depth.

Mental fear of depth: In your case 5m is very shallow for this to be fear related.. is suspect it's possible but more likely a technical issue (1-3) that I mentioned.

Id suggest finding a good instructor who can really coach and develop your Frenzel Equalization, making sure it's as passive as possible, and practice relaxed (no contractions) STA on 1/2 lungs (passive exhale). Work in improving your no contractions time on 1/2 lung static.

--

FYI, there's hope.. for 3 years of diving in Montreal I had contractions starting at about 10m on the way down..

Just a few months ago, I did 90m with contractions starting at 30m.. on the way up!

 

[Waterbear]

I'd need to see your diving to be sure, but typically contractions on the descent (you really shouldn't have any descent contractions to any depth) are caused by 1 or more of 4 common things..

Poor EQ technique: using too much force with any kind of EQ will create lots of tension. Especially valsalva, which should be avoided as it's extremely forceful.

Shifting too much air: again part of EQ, typically you need to have some air in the mouth to EQ. If you're moving this air from lungs to mouth with too much force or in a very sloppy way, if can trigger contractions.

Full Vs empty lungs training.. DYN and STA on full lungs won't build comfort at depth.. you need to practice relaxing with 1/2 to fully empty lungs.. do no contractions STA and easy DYN on (in your case diving quite shallow) 1/2 lungs.. probably you're very tense once your compressed.. you need to work on this without the stress of actual depth.

Mental fear of depth: In your case 5m is very shallow for this to be fear related.. is suspect it's possible but more likely a technical issue (1-3) that I mentioned.

Id suggest finding a good instructor who can really coach and develop your Frenzel Equalization, making sure it's as passive as possible, and practice relaxed (no contractions) STA on 1/2 lungs (passive exhale). Work in improving your no contractions time on 1/2 lung static.

--

FYI, there's hope.. for 3 years of diving in Montreal I had contractions starting at about 10m on the way down..

Just a few months ago, I did 90m with contractions starting at 30m.. on the way up!

Thank you for such detailed response!

I think you might be right on some points:

- I believe I am doing proper frenzel (I can equalize at RV without engaging my core) but might push too much on it or holding it for too long. My refill is also a bit sloppy, I am working on it trying to keep it short and quiet.

- Most of my training has indeed be on full lungs: I perceived FRC/RV as more useful for people experiencing greater pressure (25m+) but I will experiment with it then!

Thank you again, I will test all of that You indeed give me hope!

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Thank you for such detailed response!

I think you might be right on some points:

- I believe I am doing proper frenzel (I can equalize at RV without engaging my core) but might push too much on it or holding it for too long. My refill is also a bit sloppy, I am working on it trying to keep it short and quiet.

- Most of my training has indeed be on full lungs: I perceived FRC/RV as more useful for people experiencing greater pressure (25m+) but I will experiment with it then!

Thank you again, I will test all of that You indeed give me hope!

Just two points..

There should be no active refill of the mouth.. this needs to be coached.. (I'm working with a girl right now who always had contractions on the way down.. she does hands free but also did an active refill.. we removed the active refil and her contractions went away)..

And yeah.. for divers in the +40s the FRC/RV dives would be done in depth.. for you, or anyone in the 0-30/40 range, I'd reccomend doing them dry, just to replicate the sensation of holding the breath without being completely full..

So empty or half lungs in depth is advanced.. empty or half lungs dry STA can be used by beginners to get comfortable in shallow depths..

 

[Waterbear]

Just two points..

There should be no active refill of the mouth.. this needs to be coached.. (I'm working with a girl right now who always had contractions on the way down.. she does hands free but also did an active refill.. we removed the active refil and her contractions went away)..

And yeah.. for divers in the +40s the FRC/RV dives would be done in depth.. for you, or anyone in the 0-30/40 range, I'd reccomend doing them dry, just to replicate the sensation of holding the breath without being completely full..

So empty or half lungs in depth is advanced.. empty or half lungs dry STA can be used by beginners to get comfortable in shallow depths..

Ok I will try to work on that! Thank you for the precision.

Unfortunately due to the pandemic I am not sure if I can find a coach available.

 

[Waterbear]

I have been training getting used to RV/FRC dry for the last few weeks, and I feel more relax. But noticed that I would sometimes have sore throat and a slight pressure in the chest afterward. Are these common symptoms?

 

[Nathan Vinski]

I have been training getting used to RV/FRC dry for the last few weeks, and I feel more relax. But noticed that I would sometimes have sore throat and a slight pressure in the chest afterward. Are these common symptoms?

They are possible symptoms..

Sore throat could be from holding your glottis shut with too much effort (it should be very gentle).. this is something you can play around with to find the minimum effort required to hold the breath (exhale or inhale).

or having big contractions (you shouldn't really be having any, especially not big ones, on this exercise.

--

Tight chest can actually be some bloodshift.. it can happen even on dry STA when doing it on exhale.. as long as it goes away after a bit and no urge to cough then it's just a part of getting used to these lower lung volumes

 

[Waterbear]

They are possible symptoms..

Sore throat could be from holding your glottis shut with too much effort (it should be very gentle).. this is something you can play around with to find the minimum effort required to hold the breath (exhale or inhale).

or having big contractions (you shouldn't really be having any, especially not big ones, on this exercise.

--

Tight chest can actually be some bloodshift.. it can happen even on dry STA when doing it on exhale.. as long as it goes away after a bit and no urge to cough then it's just a part of getting used to these lower lung volumes

Thank you for the precisions!

Yes I avoid getting contractions. I stop when I feel the first one coming, or shortly after it. When I do dry FRC I definitely feel the vacuum squeezing slightly my throat, even tucked in, so I might try to focus on RV for a bit first.

The tight lungs stop mostly after 2-3h max.

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Thank you for the precisions!

Yes I avoid getting contractions. I stop when I feel the first one coming, or shortly after it. When I do dry FRC I definitely feel the vacuum squeezing slightly my throat, even tucked in, so I might try to focus on RV for a bit first.

The tight lungs stop mostly after 2-3h max.

So that's good insight for me..

If you feel a vacuume on FRC it means you're extremely tense when holding at that lung volume. Somehow you're more relaxed at RV..

FRC (passive relaxed neutral diaphragm) should be the most comfortable with the least internal (±) pressure

Since you're developing tension here it's shows it's what you need to practice most.

It also explains why you're getting contractions at the depths you are.. 5-15m are the depths that your lungs would be at about FRC.. apparently you're very tense in this particular lung volume range.

I'd suggest approaching it like a technique/skill..

Do like 20x 10-15 seconds FRC holds, instead of trying to work the breath hold try to completely limit the tension in your abs, ribs, diaphragm, and throat.

Play around with PURPOSELY creating tension in those areas, and you'll hopefully figure out where youre making it by accident, and then how to stop it..

Remember, since FRC is a passive lung volume is should require almost 0 effort to keep the air in. On RV I'd expect a vacuume feeling, but FRC shouldn't have it..

 

[xristos]

I'd need to see your diving to be sure, but typically contractions on the descent (you really shouldn't have any descent contractions to any depth) are caused by 1 or more of 4 common things..

Poor EQ technique: using too much force with any kind of EQ will create lots of tension. Especially valsalva, which should be avoided as it's extremely forceful.

Shifting too much air: again part of EQ, typically you need to have some air in the mouth to EQ. If you're moving this air from lungs to mouth with too much force or in a very sloppy way, if can trigger contractions.

Full Vs empty lungs training.. DYN and STA on full lungs won't build comfort at depth.. you need to practice relaxing with 1/2 to fully empty lungs.. do no contractions STA and easy DYN on (in your case diving quite shallow) 1/2 lungs.. probably you're very tense once your compressed.. you need to work on this without the stress of actual depth.

Mental fear of depth: In your case 5m is very shallow for this to be fear related.. is suspect it's possible but more likely a technical issue (1-3) that I mentioned.

Id suggest finding a good instructor who can really coach and develop your Frenzel Equalization, making sure it's as passive as possible, and practice relaxed (no contractions) STA on 1/2 lungs (passive exhale). Work in improving your no contractions time on 1/2 lung static.

--

FYI, there's hope.. for 3 years of diving in Montreal I had contractions starting at about 10m on the way down..

Just a few months ago, I did 90m with contractions starting at 30m.. on the way up!

Nathan how did you manage to reach this level? Was it with hv or without? I dive close 10 yrs dry static i get contractions 50- 80 sec in. I had done 5 min with hv before 5 yrs, 4 30 with hv before 7 years. Since then i haven't done much full lung static. Is there point to do co2 training and what should it be like? Also during the 90 m you didnt do constant pressure equalisation, right?

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Nathan how did you manage to reach this level? Was it with hv or without? I dive close 10 yrs dry static i get contractions 50- 80 sec in. I had done 5 min with hv before 5 yrs, 4 30 with hv before 7 years. Since then i haven't done much full lung static. Is there point to do co2 training and what should it be like? Also during the 90 m you didnt do constant pressure equalisation, right?

The main way I reached this level was by doing exercises that mimic the target dive-time (but) without having contractions..

Examples:

DYN (60m + 4x30m with 1-5 breaths recovery) this allows lots of CO2/lactic build up but not enough time per hold to start having contractions.. total time = about 3:00

Deep hang: Fin normally to 40-45m (50% my goal) and hang until first urge to breath (not contraction).. eventually after months, my no contractions dive time on the exercise was 3:25..

Lots of 50-65m dives, when I'm in shape after good unitial base training these are always completely comfortable.

The important thing is that these exercises are quite similar to the overall breath hold of need on 90m but just enough easier that I could do multiple reps per session, and never really be in the struggle zone.

--

Full lung static isnt that representative.. when I was doing 3:00 dives to 45 with no significant urge to breath, I'd still have contractions at 2:45 in normal STA.. I did 2 STA tests just to see, and was surprised at how poorly I did.

The thing is, I could easily do 3:00 with no urge to breath on FRC and 2:30 on RV.. so it was clear my breathold was adapted to the lower lung volume at depth.

--

EQ wise, it's "no pressure" EQ..

Ive done some measurements, and the internal (mouth) pressure I have with a full mouthfill (no squeezing) is 35-40mmHG.

The pressure I need to EQ is only 8-10mmHG.

For for nearly 3/4 my descent I'm "not equalizing".. just letting the natural pressure in my mouth without squeezing the air do the work..

For the last 20-25m I just use very gentle Frenzel with what ever air us left in my cheeks, if I feel it's necessary.. but by this point the pressure change is so small it only like 3-4 half-equalizations..

 

[xristos]

The main way I reached this level was by doing exercises that mimic the target dive-time (but) without having contractions..

Examples:

DYN (60m + 4x30m with 1-5 breaths recovery) this allows lots of CO2/lactic build up but not enough time per hold to start having contractions.. total time = about 3:00

Deep hang: Fin normally to 40-45m (50% my goal) and hang until first urge to breath (not contraction).. eventually after months, my no contractions dive time on the exercise was 3:25..

Lots of 50-65m dives, when I'm in shape after good unitial base training these are always completely comfortable.

The important thing is that these exercises are quite similar to the overall breath hold of need on 90m but just enough easier that I could do multiple reps per session, and never really be in the struggle zone.

--

Full lung static isnt that representative.. when I was doing 3:00 dives to 45 with no significant urge to breath, I'd still have contractions at 2:45 in normal STA.. I did 2 STA tests just to see, and was surprised at how poorly I did.

The thing is, I could easily do 3:00 with no urge to breath on FRC and 2:30 on RV.. so it was clear my breathold was adapted to the lower lung volume at depth.

--

EQ wise, it's "no pressure" EQ..

Ive done some measurements, and the internal (mouth) pressure I have with a full mouthfill (no squeezing) is 35-40mmHG.

The pressure I need to EQ is only 8-10mmHG.

For for nearly 3/4 my descent I'm "not equalizing".. just letting the natural pressure in my mouth without squeezing the air do the work..

For the last 20-25m I just use very gentle Frenzel with what ever air us left in my cheeks, if I feel it's necessary.. but by this point the pressure change is so small it only like 3-4 half-equalizations..

Thanks loads for the in depth answer, in the sea I do 2:30 40 meter dive then 35 meter 2:30 dives in a session. Dry I do 2min Rv no urge to breath BUT all this is with hyperventilation.

In the equalization do you think there is point for someone who can control tensor veli palatini to try and open eustachian when doing the deeper half equalizations?
I did plenty Rv 10-12m dives doing the constant equalization method you describe. I was running out of air every time at ~10m. I was hearing air leak with a particular sound. I noticed that the reason i was loosing was depth and pressure differential between mouth cavity and thoracic cavity. Specifically either too much pressing with cheecks (fixed that), or too much negative pressure in the thorax. In the thorax side I think it's more complicated maybe due to relaxation, maybe due to flexibility, maybe due to insufficient bloods shift, but, trying to relax I still lost air maybe due to relaxing mouth muscle as well and it didn't change much between dives. And here is another question, do you close with vocal chords or glottis and what should we use ?

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Thanks loads for the in depth answer, in the sea I do 2:30 40 meter dive then 35 meter 2:30 dives in a session. Dry I do 2min Rv no urge to breath BUT all this is with hyperventilation.

In the equalization do you think there is point for someone who can control tensor veli palatini to try and open eustachian when doing the deeper half equalizations?
I did plenty Rv 10-12m dives doing the constant equalization method you describe. I was running out of air every time at ~10m. I was hearing air leak with a particular sound. I noticed that the reason i was loosing was depth and pressure differential between mouth cavity and thoracic cavity. Specifically either too much pressing with cheecks (fixed that), or too much negative pressure in the thorax. In the thorax side I think it's more complicated maybe due to relaxation, maybe due to flexibility, maybe due to insufficient bloods shift, but, trying to relax I still lost air maybe due to relaxing mouth muscle as well and it didn't change much between dives. And here is another question, do you close with vocal chords or glottis and what should we use ?

To be competely honest with you.. I haven't dove without hyperventilating in about 2 years..

Even my 90m CWT dive was done with tingly fingers and lips. Most deep divers actually do use HV, and it's only really bad for Dyn performance..

--

EQ..

If you can do hands free (tensor palatini muscle) BTV...

Then you should equalize this way even with mouthfill. No constant pressure, no switching to Frenzel at the end..

Simply hold air in the mouth, and do hands free.. ** even though I cannot EQ hands free, I taught my girlfriend to use mouthfill combined with hands free.. she was having trouble with Frenzel to 32-33m, once she switched to MF+hands free she quickly did 40m in just a few sessions.

Umm, glottis / vocal folds.. it's all the same. In any case, you should'nt eed to "hold it closed".. if you are it's way to much tension and this will mess up your EQ.. if you are a hands free person, then you're probably not used to pressure in the mouth, so like I said, you can simply use hands free with air in the mouth and this should be easier for you..

A great way to practic is the RV dives you've been doing.. I'm not sure what your PB is, but if you're diving deeper than 50, I'd suggest aiming for 15m RV with the mouthfill hands free.. if you're deeper than 70-75, aim for 20rv..

Those respective depths are a good sign that your chest is adapted well enough, and that your EQ is working properly according to your level..