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Trigger Q's
- Thread starterWarthaug
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Rick,
Terribly busy right now so I might not be able to call. I don't even have time to type up a decent post. I'm in Seattle right now but will be packing up over the weekend for a two-week vacation on the Big Island starting on Monday. My first boy just turned 3 and my second son is turning 1 so we're going to be back with family celebrating their birthdays. I'm also feverishly trying to put the final touches on my latest round of prototype guns that I plan to test.
The reason I'm asking these questions is that I am puzzled about a few things you've stated in this thread. And the reason is that a couple years ago I was developing a trigger of my own design and built a test fixture to verify the predicted load capability. And like you, I was also interested in what the current triggers on the market were capable of. I tested an Alexander, a Riffe, and one of yours. In addition to the load tests, a friend of mine who is a metallurgist took both mine and your trigger to a lab and took some hardness readings. He also offered to cut up the busted trigger and put it under a scope to determine what type of steel it was. But I declined this since he was already doing me a favor and I didn't want to take up more of his time. One trick he showed me was to take a magnet and see if it sticks. If it doesn't stick, its austenitic stainless, also known as 300 series stainless and can't be heat treated. If it does stick it is martensitic in structure, containing less chrome and more respondent to heat treat. Your trigger stuck which means it is likely to be a heat treatable stainless steel. The Alexander, Riffe, and mine didn't stick and are all austenitic in structure. Mine is 316 and the Alexander and Riffe are likely 316 or a close relative. 300 hundred series is softer than heat treated 17-4. Given that the Riffe and Alexander have been around a lot longer than yours, their performance has been proven. This contradicts your statement that a sear softer than your shaft will eventually fail the mechanism with time. I disagree with your statement and lets just leave it at that.
I think I've gone far enough. If you choose not to share any more information that's perfectly fine with me. Like I said earlier, I respect your business and don't intend to harm or start any bad blood. I do intend however to start selling my guns with my triggers and that would technically make us competitors. Competition is good. Better products are the result, and the consumer ultimately benefits.
My sincerest regards to both you and Daryl,
Gilbert Gacula
P.S. On a lighter note, I do speak da kine you know lidat. Straight from the forgotten cane fields of the Hamakua coast. I'm not as uptight as I sound..
Aloha.
Terribly busy right now so I might not be able to call. I don't even have time to type up a decent post. I'm in Seattle right now but will be packing up over the weekend for a two-week vacation on the Big Island starting on Monday. My first boy just turned 3 and my second son is turning 1 so we're going to be back with family celebrating their birthdays. I'm also feverishly trying to put the final touches on my latest round of prototype guns that I plan to test.
The reason I'm asking these questions is that I am puzzled about a few things you've stated in this thread. And the reason is that a couple years ago I was developing a trigger of my own design and built a test fixture to verify the predicted load capability. And like you, I was also interested in what the current triggers on the market were capable of. I tested an Alexander, a Riffe, and one of yours. In addition to the load tests, a friend of mine who is a metallurgist took both mine and your trigger to a lab and took some hardness readings. He also offered to cut up the busted trigger and put it under a scope to determine what type of steel it was. But I declined this since he was already doing me a favor and I didn't want to take up more of his time. One trick he showed me was to take a magnet and see if it sticks. If it doesn't stick, its austenitic stainless, also known as 300 series stainless and can't be heat treated. If it does stick it is martensitic in structure, containing less chrome and more respondent to heat treat. Your trigger stuck which means it is likely to be a heat treatable stainless steel. The Alexander, Riffe, and mine didn't stick and are all austenitic in structure. Mine is 316 and the Alexander and Riffe are likely 316 or a close relative. 300 hundred series is softer than heat treated 17-4. Given that the Riffe and Alexander have been around a lot longer than yours, their performance has been proven. This contradicts your statement that a sear softer than your shaft will eventually fail the mechanism with time. I disagree with your statement and lets just leave it at that.
I think I've gone far enough. If you choose not to share any more information that's perfectly fine with me. Like I said earlier, I respect your business and don't intend to harm or start any bad blood. I do intend however to start selling my guns with my triggers and that would technically make us competitors. Competition is good. Better products are the result, and the consumer ultimately benefits.
My sincerest regards to both you and Daryl,
Gilbert Gacula
P.S. On a lighter note, I do speak da kine you know lidat. Straight from the forgotten cane fields of the Hamakua coast. I'm not as uptight as I sound..
Aloha.
Last edited by a moderator:
The neat thing about stainless steels is that they do something called "Work Harden".
Here's a little info about that: http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1178#_Work_Hardening
When the surface of the steel is compressed the structure of the metal condenses making the surface less malleable. In the case of a SST trigger, the more the trigger gets used the harder the metal that's getting compressed gets.
Work hardening of the mating surfaces of a trigger assembly is probably a good thing but work hardening is not allways a good thing. The harder something becomes the less elasticity it has. When metal can't stretch it can fracture and fail.
In order to reduce structural failure from work hardening the thickness of the metal has to be substantial enough to eliminate flexing due to the loads that are experienced by the component.
If you want to witness a work hardening failure do this experiment. Take an old stainless steel spoon or fork with a thin handle and clamp it in a vise. Using a pliers to grip the handle bend the handle back and forth until it breaks. Now take a piece of copper wire and do the same experiment.
What about galling?
300 series stainless steels can be used in load situations without mating parts galling as long as the heat produced by friction is reduced. Water makes a good lubricant and cooling medium. I think I've read that researchers have discovered that sodium also makes a good lubricant for reducing galling in stainless steel. Salt water works well to reduce friction and remove heat.
Here's a little info about that: http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1178#_Work_Hardening
When the surface of the steel is compressed the structure of the metal condenses making the surface less malleable. In the case of a SST trigger, the more the trigger gets used the harder the metal that's getting compressed gets.
Work hardening of the mating surfaces of a trigger assembly is probably a good thing but work hardening is not allways a good thing. The harder something becomes the less elasticity it has. When metal can't stretch it can fracture and fail.
In order to reduce structural failure from work hardening the thickness of the metal has to be substantial enough to eliminate flexing due to the loads that are experienced by the component.
If you want to witness a work hardening failure do this experiment. Take an old stainless steel spoon or fork with a thin handle and clamp it in a vise. Using a pliers to grip the handle bend the handle back and forth until it breaks. Now take a piece of copper wire and do the same experiment.
What about galling?
300 series stainless steels can be used in load situations without mating parts galling as long as the heat produced by friction is reduced. Water makes a good lubricant and cooling medium. I think I've read that researchers have discovered that sodium also makes a good lubricant for reducing galling in stainless steel. Salt water works well to reduce friction and remove heat.
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Mr Gilbert
In my first post and I believe in the first sentence I say that normally I don't post but in this particular case I would because I felt strongly about the topic. I felt that I could share my experience with everyone and hopefully enlighten a few folks along the way as to how triggers work. Gilbert I have made over 2500 triggers and tested each and everyone I believe I qualify as a technical expert. The reason forums like this do not see manufactures writting very often is that there is always someone who knows more than us and are so willing to "dispute" instead of being a silent professional and learning a thing or two!
One last thing let me give you your first lession in business; you never make yourself look better at someone elses expense. You will never hear Daryl nor myself put down another manufacturer because we believe that all manufactures strive to put out the very best product possible for the consumer. Someone who is starting out in business has a long road to walk before they can consider themselves successful it will do you no good at all to start by digging potholes! :vangry
Rick Bettua
Aimrite Inc
In my first post and I believe in the first sentence I say that normally I don't post but in this particular case I would because I felt strongly about the topic. I felt that I could share my experience with everyone and hopefully enlighten a few folks along the way as to how triggers work. Gilbert I have made over 2500 triggers and tested each and everyone I believe I qualify as a technical expert. The reason forums like this do not see manufactures writting very often is that there is always someone who knows more than us and are so willing to "dispute" instead of being a silent professional and learning a thing or two!
One last thing let me give you your first lession in business; you never make yourself look better at someone elses expense. You will never hear Daryl nor myself put down another manufacturer because we believe that all manufactures strive to put out the very best product possible for the consumer. Someone who is starting out in business has a long road to walk before they can consider themselves successful it will do you no good at all to start by digging potholes! :vangry
Rick Bettua
Aimrite Inc
.
I think everone knows that I am no technical expert and all I really like is a good laugh and a joke mixed in with sharing information, I had hoped to stay out of this one but I seem to have been dragged into it inadvertantly.
(sorry Marc XX well I do like a joke). There posts to me are so rich in knowledge, I find them always worth reading I wish that every manufacturer would post here and I hope that this thread wont put any others off posting in the future.
I think everone knows that I am no technical expert and all I really like is a good laugh and a joke mixed in with sharing information, I had hoped to stay out of this one but I seem to have been dragged into it inadvertantly.
I edited your post to prevent Deeper Blue being sued by Aimrite, not to protect any individualGilbertG said:
A question here, do all manufactures test thier triggers individually?Aimrite said:
On a personal note, this is such a shame, I really enjoy reading the posts that the manufactures put up, so many different ideas and aproaches; not only Daryl and Rick's but any manufacturer or genuine "expert" even Marc L'sAimrite said:
(sorry Marc XX well I do like a joke). There posts to me are so rich in knowledge, I find them always worth reading I wish that every manufacturer would post here and I hope that this thread wont put any others off posting in the future.Aimrite said:
That is a false statement .Take apart any two piece trigger mech that can use riffe shafts and you will notice that they look almost identical . The trigger may have a different shape or the achor point for the spring may be shaped different or in different position but it still works on the same desighn 90degree catch on the sear to mate with the 90 degree angle on the shaft.
"Besides this would be my case in point; if you can file your home built sere the material you are using is way too soft!"
Your trigger is not hard enough not to be filed.
Testing is a good thing but unless you test every trigger that you put out you want know which is going to fail or which one won't.There are many variables that can affect the outcome of the final product.The guy working at the foundry may not be a grad student from mit or georgia tech.
"I have made over 2500 triggers and tested each and everyone I believe I qualify as a technical expert."
Should read "Self proclaimed expert"
"One last thing let me give you your first lession in business; you never make yourself look better at someone elses expense. You will never hear Daryl nor myself put down another manufacturer because we believe that all manufactures strive to put out the very best product possible for the consumer. "
You should be careful about who you have going around rep-ing your products because they may not be the same person you are or believe in what you wrote.And for every two people they get to buy your products they push one away such as my case.
We have a manufacture that post on here quite often and they never have a problem because they don't feed us hyped up techno babble about there products.They give it to us on the level ,straight and true.As an educated/ business man I would expect you to have better communication skills to be able to talk to someone about something you know more of without belittling them .
Someone who is starting out in business has a long road to walk before they can consider themselves successful it will do you no good at all to start by digging potholes! You should practice what you preach .
Hi ajwaverider,
>
> Since I was the one responsible for asking Rick to try and give some
> useful information about what we know and have learned through our
> business, I guess I will address you. If you read his original post it was
> just to enlighten others about triggers and not to say one is better than
> another. His point was about safety.
First off, we don't normally like to post because of spearos exactly like
> you. Our original intent was to help others- not to say we are "the self
> procalimed expert" as you called Rick. Rick posted to show that unless
> you know what you are doing in fabricating your own mechanism, it can be
> dangerous. Diving is already a dangerous enough sport. No one wants to
> hear of anyone getting hurt.
> We're not here to argue with you. Rick's other replies were because he
> was called out by another poster who happened to be thinking about
> entering the speargun business and we applaud that. Best of luck to him.
> But to try and make our product look bad when he doesn't even have all the information is, in my opinion, poor taste. You don't have to be sneaky about things, we have nothing to hide and if we feel it would help spearos, we will be glad to help. Gilbert tried to do the back door thing and then called Rick out. You on the other hand should listen and learn.
> Rick and I are not engineers or rocket scientists, but we are smart enough
> to have enlisted the help of others about things we don't know. We don't
> bullshit. The biggest mistake is to think you know everything.
> You stated that you can see no difference in any mechaninsm that can fit a Riffe shaft. . When in fact, there is a difference in the geometry of
> those two particular mechaninsms you mentioned. And they are not the
> same. They work on the same princple, as you say, but that doesn't mean
> they have both 90 degree surfaces.
> Yes, there are far many more manufacturerers out there that have been in
> business longer than us. And that just makes us try harder to produce a
> better product. We have not had a single failure with over 2500 mechanisms we have tested individually and sold since we have been in business. Some of our clients are very respected custom gun builders. And we work hard to keep their trust. When you can say that you have the same track record, then I guess that will qualify you to be a "self proclaimed expert" too.
> AJ, you are obviously a very smart young man, and you profess to to know
> more than we do. You have many sources to look up information and links
> to technical information which is great. Knowledge gained is never
> lost....But you know something? My dad used to tell me when I was just
> out of dental school, that no matter how much they had taught me in my
> four brief years, it would never be a substitute for "OJT"- on the job
> training. He was right. His 26yrs of dental practice and experiences
> were far superior to my four years. There is not a day that goes by in
> the last 22 yrs that I am reminded of what a smart man he was. I wish I had picked his brain even more than I did when I had the chance. In my experience, you learn more by listening than by talking. One of my
mentors told me once jokingly, that he forgot more than I'll ever learn.
But that's the beauty of it. There's always something to learn, if you
remain humble and your intentions are pure.
I would hope that with over 70 yrs of diving experience between the both of
us,and Rick being a career Navy diver for longer than some have been alive,
we might have some useful information that can benefit others.
> Rick and I won't post on this thread any more, we have said what we hoped would help others, If you don't like it, skip over it. We won't argue
> anymore since it will not help others who want to learn something.
> Gilbert & AJ, best of luck in your future endeavors.>
> Aloha,
Daryl
>
>
> Since I was the one responsible for asking Rick to try and give some
> useful information about what we know and have learned through our
> business, I guess I will address you. If you read his original post it was
> just to enlighten others about triggers and not to say one is better than
> another. His point was about safety.
First off, we don't normally like to post because of spearos exactly like
> you. Our original intent was to help others- not to say we are "the self
> procalimed expert" as you called Rick. Rick posted to show that unless
> you know what you are doing in fabricating your own mechanism, it can be
> dangerous. Diving is already a dangerous enough sport. No one wants to
> hear of anyone getting hurt.
> We're not here to argue with you. Rick's other replies were because he
> was called out by another poster who happened to be thinking about
> entering the speargun business and we applaud that. Best of luck to him.
> But to try and make our product look bad when he doesn't even have all the information is, in my opinion, poor taste. You don't have to be sneaky about things, we have nothing to hide and if we feel it would help spearos, we will be glad to help. Gilbert tried to do the back door thing and then called Rick out. You on the other hand should listen and learn.
> Rick and I are not engineers or rocket scientists, but we are smart enough
> to have enlisted the help of others about things we don't know. We don't
> bullshit. The biggest mistake is to think you know everything.
> You stated that you can see no difference in any mechaninsm that can fit a Riffe shaft. . When in fact, there is a difference in the geometry of
> those two particular mechaninsms you mentioned. And they are not the
> same. They work on the same princple, as you say, but that doesn't mean
> they have both 90 degree surfaces.
> Yes, there are far many more manufacturerers out there that have been in
> business longer than us. And that just makes us try harder to produce a
> better product. We have not had a single failure with over 2500 mechanisms we have tested individually and sold since we have been in business. Some of our clients are very respected custom gun builders. And we work hard to keep their trust. When you can say that you have the same track record, then I guess that will qualify you to be a "self proclaimed expert" too.
> AJ, you are obviously a very smart young man, and you profess to to know
> more than we do. You have many sources to look up information and links
> to technical information which is great. Knowledge gained is never
> lost....But you know something? My dad used to tell me when I was just
> out of dental school, that no matter how much they had taught me in my
> four brief years, it would never be a substitute for "OJT"- on the job
> training. He was right. His 26yrs of dental practice and experiences
> were far superior to my four years. There is not a day that goes by in
> the last 22 yrs that I am reminded of what a smart man he was. I wish I had picked his brain even more than I did when I had the chance. In my experience, you learn more by listening than by talking. One of my
mentors told me once jokingly, that he forgot more than I'll ever learn.
But that's the beauty of it. There's always something to learn, if you
remain humble and your intentions are pure.
I would hope that with over 70 yrs of diving experience between the both of
us,and Rick being a career Navy diver for longer than some have been alive,
we might have some useful information that can benefit others.
> Rick and I won't post on this thread any more, we have said what we hoped would help others, If you don't like it, skip over it. We won't argue
> anymore since it will not help others who want to learn something.
> Gilbert & AJ, best of luck in your future endeavors.>
> Aloha,
Daryl
>
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Aimrite said:
That's an interesting statement when you think about it. rofl
Silence knowledge? Keeping people in the dark sets them up for failure.
As someone who's benefited greatly from others who unselfishly shared knowlege I promise I'll continue to share the best information I have or can find so that others can improve their quality of life and perhaps my own someday.
`Rick, Daryl,
I'm sorry that you've taken offense to my posts. But I posted because I was not only in disagreement with some of your statements, but by the way it transpired. I followed this thread from the beginning and was enjoying the exchange of opinions until someone from your camp decided to call the rest of the guys making homemade triggers "silly". That was rather mild compared to whats thrown around on these boards from time to time. Like you I opt to stay out of most of the discussions. But then both of you stepped in to exercise your rightful opinion with the subtle bellitlement of Mr Milhouse, who's tinkering with spearguns I can appreciate, and who's conceding to avoid further argument I admire. It was only until Rick had stated that sears should be harder than shafts or else they'll fail is when I balked. And that he went as far as telling a half-truth to prove a point to Milhouse. And one that Daryl enforced. Not only that, the apparent "plug" about your triggers mechs after making your point.
I agreed wholeheartedly with your advice about safety. But Rick, I disagreed with your statement about sear hardness from the moment I read it, which led me to test it. I simply pulled your trigger out and filed on it. ANYONE could have done this and anyone could have pointed that out. But most people won't have the balls to come out and say it.
I doubted that you use a proprietary alloy only available to you, so I thought I'd ask what it was made out of. Let me point out that Omer as well as other manufacturers routinely advertises their sear material and the material of everything else in their product line, so I thought my question wasn't out of line. If you do use an exotic material then why not advertise it? All we get from you guys is "spaceage" and "a variety of materials".
Statements made on these forums are often a trial by jury. If no one disagrees then it's likely to be taken as fact. But you see, words are even more likely to be taken as fact if they are coming from a reputable manufacturer. Which is why both of you have an obligation to be completely honest about your products to the less informed consumer. If you say something that wasn't quite correct and you wish to take back, you can always say that you made a mistake and correct yourself. It takes some guts to do this, but in the end people will instill even more trust in both you and your products.
Rick, it sounds impressive that you've tested one thing 2500 times. It would be mind blowing if you've tested 2500 things. Food for thought.
Rick and Daryl, I'm not putting down your products. They work fine just like everything else out there. I don't aim to ruin your business by pestering you like this.
I might add that I am still quite naive about running a business and my etiquette may not be quite so savory. I DO have lessons to be learned. I'll take this as one of them. But I might also add that I have learned some hard lessons as a practicing engineer. A few of them being, never say words you can't back up, if it don't make sense ask questions, and never underestimate the abilities of your competitor....
Again, my regards,
Gilbert Gacula
I'm sorry that you've taken offense to my posts. But I posted because I was not only in disagreement with some of your statements, but by the way it transpired. I followed this thread from the beginning and was enjoying the exchange of opinions until someone from your camp decided to call the rest of the guys making homemade triggers "silly". That was rather mild compared to whats thrown around on these boards from time to time. Like you I opt to stay out of most of the discussions. But then both of you stepped in to exercise your rightful opinion with the subtle bellitlement of Mr Milhouse, who's tinkering with spearguns I can appreciate, and who's conceding to avoid further argument I admire. It was only until Rick had stated that sears should be harder than shafts or else they'll fail is when I balked. And that he went as far as telling a half-truth to prove a point to Milhouse. And one that Daryl enforced. Not only that, the apparent "plug" about your triggers mechs after making your point.
I agreed wholeheartedly with your advice about safety. But Rick, I disagreed with your statement about sear hardness from the moment I read it, which led me to test it. I simply pulled your trigger out and filed on it. ANYONE could have done this and anyone could have pointed that out. But most people won't have the balls to come out and say it.
I doubted that you use a proprietary alloy only available to you, so I thought I'd ask what it was made out of. Let me point out that Omer as well as other manufacturers routinely advertises their sear material and the material of everything else in their product line, so I thought my question wasn't out of line. If you do use an exotic material then why not advertise it? All we get from you guys is "spaceage" and "a variety of materials".
Statements made on these forums are often a trial by jury. If no one disagrees then it's likely to be taken as fact. But you see, words are even more likely to be taken as fact if they are coming from a reputable manufacturer. Which is why both of you have an obligation to be completely honest about your products to the less informed consumer. If you say something that wasn't quite correct and you wish to take back, you can always say that you made a mistake and correct yourself. It takes some guts to do this, but in the end people will instill even more trust in both you and your products.
Rick, it sounds impressive that you've tested one thing 2500 times. It would be mind blowing if you've tested 2500 things. Food for thought.
Rick and Daryl, I'm not putting down your products. They work fine just like everything else out there. I don't aim to ruin your business by pestering you like this.
I might add that I am still quite naive about running a business and my etiquette may not be quite so savory. I DO have lessons to be learned. I'll take this as one of them. But I might also add that I have learned some hard lessons as a practicing engineer. A few of them being, never say words you can't back up, if it don't make sense ask questions, and never underestimate the abilities of your competitor....
Again, my regards,
Gilbert Gacula
In many regards, this thread is a shame. If I were Rick or Daryl I wouldn't want to be actively posting on these forums anymore. Who knows, that may have been the intent of some posters. I guess if you can't attack their products or characters, then you'll settle on attacking their intent.
Re: Technical expert vs. Self-proclaimed expert
Spearfishing is a sport with VERY few participants relative to it's "cousins": scuba and hunting. There are no councils of technical experts that set industry standards for equipment (that I know of, but then I know very little about the world of spearfishing). There are no international symposiums on spearfishing equipment safety. There probably aren't many white papers on alloy hardness or sere angles...etc in technical, Engineering, or Scientific rags. So in the absence of those "generally accepted" proofs/standards of technical expertise, we'll have to settle for something a little more fluid. If the number of times Aimrite/Rick Bettua has been given as an answer to the question: "which trigger mechs should I get for the gun I want to build?", and other custom gun makers use his mechs, and many seasoned end users consider Rick to be knowledgeable...then that makes him an Expert in my book. The fact that he tests his trigger mechs those thousands of times and takes the time to share his experiences (so DIYers don't get hurt or hurt their dive buddies) is testament to his integrity.
Inventions and technilogical advancements in spearfishing can be traced to a small handful of people. Their work is being improved by guys like Rick.
Re:" for every two people they get to buy your products they push one away such as my case."
I bet that Daryl and Rick just loved reading this. I'm a small business owner (side business as I have a full time job), and I really believe in my product. I don't think certain potential customers deserve my product. Anyone in business will know what I'm talking about. I don't need their money that badly, and I'd rather go home without a sale than to deal with the post sale drama.
Re: "Someone who is starting out in business has a long road to walk before they can consider themselves successful it will do you no good at all to start by digging potholes! You should practice what you preach ."
Dude, if someone decided to make spearguns to sell and that person gets mentioned in the same sentence as Rick and Daryl, then he can really celebrate. Provided the mention of his name or company isn't preceded by a "not" as in "buy Aimrite/Wong and "not" that guy..."
Re: "Rick and Daryl, I'm not putting down your products. They work fine just like everything else out there. "
I'd like to (possibly) agree and qualify part of this statement. Their products is like everything else out there in that a long piece of steel is projected at fish, but they're not like "everything else".
I own three spearguns. They're all Wong or Aimrite guns. The two Wong guns are second hand (one is third hand) , so I thought Daryl was crazy when he told me that my third hand gun has a lifetime warranty. But after using it for a few season I understand why. The guns (and parts) are so well made, failure probably isn't frequent. And Rick testified that there hasn't been a failure. The guns are so beautiful that I go out of my way to protect it from being scuffed or scratched. Every year Daryl tells me that I can send the gun in for him to refinish or fix any dings I put on it. I don't consider Aimrite and Wongspearguns to be the company that made my spearguns. Although I haven't met Rick, and I briefly met Daryl at the first FDL party (before I knew he made guns), I consider them to be friends that make spearguns.
There are some production gun makers that will probably have a coronary when Rick and Daryl decided to quit their day jobs and make guns full time.
In the end we're all hurling steel at fish. I want to have as much fun doing it as I can. Diving with one of their guns adds to that fun. I have all the confidence that my gun will shoot where I aim it. I also have a lot of respect for fish that I take. They die by a fine instrument made by two fine human beings.
Re: Technical expert vs. Self-proclaimed expert
Spearfishing is a sport with VERY few participants relative to it's "cousins": scuba and hunting. There are no councils of technical experts that set industry standards for equipment (that I know of, but then I know very little about the world of spearfishing). There are no international symposiums on spearfishing equipment safety. There probably aren't many white papers on alloy hardness or sere angles...etc in technical, Engineering, or Scientific rags. So in the absence of those "generally accepted" proofs/standards of technical expertise, we'll have to settle for something a little more fluid. If the number of times Aimrite/Rick Bettua has been given as an answer to the question: "which trigger mechs should I get for the gun I want to build?", and other custom gun makers use his mechs, and many seasoned end users consider Rick to be knowledgeable...then that makes him an Expert in my book. The fact that he tests his trigger mechs those thousands of times and takes the time to share his experiences (so DIYers don't get hurt or hurt their dive buddies) is testament to his integrity.
Inventions and technilogical advancements in spearfishing can be traced to a small handful of people. Their work is being improved by guys like Rick.
Re:" for every two people they get to buy your products they push one away such as my case."
I bet that Daryl and Rick just loved reading this. I'm a small business owner (side business as I have a full time job), and I really believe in my product. I don't think certain potential customers deserve my product. Anyone in business will know what I'm talking about. I don't need their money that badly, and I'd rather go home without a sale than to deal with the post sale drama.
Re: "Someone who is starting out in business has a long road to walk before they can consider themselves successful it will do you no good at all to start by digging potholes! You should practice what you preach ."
Dude, if someone decided to make spearguns to sell and that person gets mentioned in the same sentence as Rick and Daryl, then he can really celebrate. Provided the mention of his name or company isn't preceded by a "not" as in "buy Aimrite/Wong and "not" that guy..."
Re: "Rick and Daryl, I'm not putting down your products. They work fine just like everything else out there. "
I'd like to (possibly) agree and qualify part of this statement. Their products is like everything else out there in that a long piece of steel is projected at fish, but they're not like "everything else".
I own three spearguns. They're all Wong or Aimrite guns. The two Wong guns are second hand (one is third hand) , so I thought Daryl was crazy when he told me that my third hand gun has a lifetime warranty. But after using it for a few season I understand why. The guns (and parts) are so well made, failure probably isn't frequent. And Rick testified that there hasn't been a failure. The guns are so beautiful that I go out of my way to protect it from being scuffed or scratched. Every year Daryl tells me that I can send the gun in for him to refinish or fix any dings I put on it. I don't consider Aimrite and Wongspearguns to be the company that made my spearguns. Although I haven't met Rick, and I briefly met Daryl at the first FDL party (before I knew he made guns), I consider them to be friends that make spearguns.
There are some production gun makers that will probably have a coronary when Rick and Daryl decided to quit their day jobs and make guns full time.
In the end we're all hurling steel at fish. I want to have as much fun doing it as I can. Diving with one of their guns adds to that fun. I have all the confidence that my gun will shoot where I aim it. I also have a lot of respect for fish that I take. They die by a fine instrument made by two fine human beings.
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I must admit I am new to this world, but I just finished constructing my first spreargun (a 54 inch mid-handled, laminated, enclosed track). In my dealings with various manufactures only one did not project a condescending tone to a person like me who knew nothing. I obtained equipment and advice from multiple sources and only Daryl was truly excited to help and actually spent upwards of an hour several times on the phone giving me advice and helpful suggestions. Everything I obtained from him was very clean and professional. Parts I obtained from others were not always as such. I am not saying that my service from others was poor (although I would say, in my limited experience aimrite’s equipment is much more aesthetic), I am saying the service aimrite Daryl provides is hands down priceless to those seeking to build their first gun. Ok so I can put a price on it. If I would have went to Daryl first I would have save well over a hundred dollars in the construction process. I bought part I didn't need, I paid returned shipping for some things, Had a little confusion on the laminating process, Would have not made the mistake that led to a 54 inch gun instead of the original 60 inch gun......
To sum it up Daryl volunteered information which helped, others seemed to just answer questions if you were persistant enough to ask twice.
Copro
To sum it up Daryl volunteered information which helped, others seemed to just answer questions if you were persistant enough to ask twice.
Copro
Spinal Tap said:In many regards, this thread is a shame. If I were Rick or Daryl I wouldn't want to be actively posting on these forums anymore. Who knows, that may have been the intent of some posters. I guess if you can't attack their products or characters, then you'll settle on attacking their intent.
Spinal Tap . You are what I would call "biased" and because of that you missed Some of the important things that was said.You have misunderstood
the post because no one said that there products wasn't good. I just found
some of there statements questionable.Some people could read this and not pick up on it because of them just not knowing any different.Just a question for you would you feel any different if it was another company and you owned three of there brand?There are people that own things and have strong feelings toward them but have know idea what what makes them better or maybe equal to something else.I don't own any of the major brands and anytime I hear one talk about something they offer that other companies don't have, I try and find out what it is all about .I don't believe it just because they say it ,I believe it because it has been proven as fact.Some people don't question anything and people like me always have questions.I probaly should have phrased some of my words in the form of questions so to not be counterproductive to the thread, but hindsight is 20/20 .One thing I would say to you is that since you are a friend and you own three of there guns some people could think that you're a represenative of what they stand for and if you did something that was out of line it would reflect on them.If I was seen as a represenative of another company I should't go around throw ing punches at people for the products they produce.I have been in situations where one of my friends was doing something wrong (not against the law) but something that you shoudn't be doing and I had to tell him to
just cut it out even though we are good friends.If you look at some of the equipment some of the more seasoned guys use you will notice they have different brands and when they choose one over the other it is because of it's intended use and not because of it's brand name, Something we(or at least I) can look foward to .
GilbertG. said:
First of all if you want to call me out do so...I dont tippy toe and dont expect you to.
Were all big boys here and if someone really gets their feelings hurt by a web post they have issues to begin with Second I speak only for myself. I am in no ones "camp." I do have an affenity for Rick and Daryl's products and can proudly call them my friends but thats it. I am not sponsored or any such thing by them. In fact if you have read many of my posts I will be the first to point out that there is no "best" speargun out there. Different strokes for different folks. With so many good things out there to really be concerned about(like how in the world am I going to afford gas for the boat this summer withthe fuel costs!!!!), the name on your gun shouldnt be one!
Not that I have to defend my opinion to anyone here but I still feel building your own trigger mech is "silly" unless you intend to market them or build your own line of guns. Some of these homemade triggers Ive seen pics of use friggin dinnerware for parts! rofl Great for the people who do make their own...you are far more talented than I...but its not coming on my boat.
Anyway, I hope the weather clears soon, sounds like we all need to get out and dive!
Safe hunting
Mike Freeman
rigdvr said:
I'll bite.
You're right it is hillarious that a working trigger can be contructed in part from dinnerware.
What is a stainless flatware? its an ordinary piece of 304 stainless steel that's been drop forged into the shape of dinnerware and is waiting to be transformed into something that will go get dinner. rofl
I asked my spearguns if they wanted a ride on Rigdvr's boat and they said no. Who would have thought that would be their answer? Oh well. Their loss I guess. rofl
Guess they've never seen pictures of fish shot from my boat...definately their loss :wave If you ever do want to come hunt the rigs you are more than welcome but I'll supply the guns
Like I said...kudos to you but its not my cup of tea. I dont have the time or the inclination to turn my bedframe into a gun stock even though its wood so whats your point... The space shuttle is covered in ceramic tiles...but Im not gonna rip mine out of the kitchen and start building one rofl Leave the butter knives in the kitchen sink :blackeye
All in all, Ive looked at your guns and I was impressed with your ingenuity. Probably works great on the reefs in Florida. Here we have to power up the guns a little more and I wouldnt be comfortable doing that on an unproven mech. Sorry if I offended you by saying so.
Mike
Like I said...kudos to you but its not my cup of tea. I dont have the time or the inclination to turn my bedframe into a gun stock even though its wood so whats your point...
The space shuttle is covered in ceramic tiles...but Im not gonna rip mine out of the kitchen and start building one rofl Leave the butter knives in the kitchen sink :blackeye All in all, Ive looked at your guns and I was impressed with your ingenuity. Probably works great on the reefs in Florida. Here we have to power up the guns a little more and I wouldnt be comfortable doing that on an unproven mech. Sorry if I offended you by saying so.
Mike
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Oh where to begin...
Spinal Tap . You are what I would call "biased" and because of that you missed Some of the important things that was said.You have misunderstood
the post because no one said that there products wasn't good.
My post all but actually says "I'm biased". I admit I haven't read each post of this thread carefully. Technical stuff bore me. I'll expand on this further down.
You've either misunderstood or side stepped my point about attacking their intent. Below in Italics is what I'm referring to.
We have a manufacture that post on here quite often and they never have a problem because they don't feed us hyped up techno babble about there products.They give it to us on the level ,straight and true.As an educated/ business man I would expect you to have better communication skills to be able to talk to someone about something you know more of without belittling them .
Perhaps you could have rephrased Rick's "techno babble" into a more digestable terms, or were you just mad you couldn't comprehend what he was writing about?
Could it be possible that the discussion was of a technical nature, and Rick actually needed to use what ever "techno babble" to describe whatever he was describing?
Out of curiosity, who is this other manufacturer? I know Mark L of Omer has written some detailed stuff, but I don't believe he actually manufactures those products. I could be wrong.
Anyways, to conclude this point. You're implying that Rick or Daryl's intent in participating in this thread was to used "techno babble" to feed you guys hype. You also felt that experienced businessmen such as Rick and Daryl were in this thread to belittle some participants.
My lead in on my Original post used product and character as an example, but attacking their intent was the focus.
I just found
some of there statements questionable.
You could have said it just like that and then reference those questionable statements.
Just a question for you would you feel any different if it was another company and you owned three of there brand?
I don't follow. Are you asking if I would take the time to respond on this thread had it been another company (whose product I own)?
I'll take a stab at answering your question anyways...
That depends on the person(s). Is he a person I want to be friends with? Would I be proud to know him and call him my friend? I made it pretty clear in my post that I consider Rick and Daryl to be my friends who happen to make spearguns.
Do you know any owner(s) of gun companies that would help you pick up a used gun (one of his) that you bought from a guy near him, fix any damages, and send it to you with some fresh bands for free?
There are people that own things and have strong feelings toward them but have know idea what what makes them better or maybe equal to something else.I don't own any of the major brands and anytime I hear one talk about something they offer that other companies don't have, I try and find out what it is all about .I don't believe it just because they say it ,I believe it because it has been proven as fact.Some people don't question anything and people like me always have questions.
Thanks for the veiled insult. Technical stuff bore the hell out of me. If I'm not mistaken, you're a fan of euro type guns...Spearguns in general seem to be heading in the right direction and making some great progress. Just for reference I have never shot or even held a euro gun but reconize the advantages of using one . . You wrote this last July. To me that sounds like you read up on euro guns and liked what you read about them, so they're for you?
Did you ask all the questions you can before buying your Bandito Panther?
One thing I would say to you is that since you are a friend and you own three of there guns some people could think that you're a represenative of what they stand for and if you did something that was out of line it would reflect on them.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've read on this website. What the hell kind of logic is this?
If I was seen as a represenative of another company I should't go around throwing punches at people for the products they produce.
You lost me there champ. Did I diss another maker's products?
If you look at some of the equipment some of the more seasoned guys use you will notice they have different brands and when they choose one over the other it is because of it's intended use and not because of it's brand name, Something we(or at least I) can look foward to .
Well that depends on the seasoned guys you know. I dive with a handful of old bastards (and I call them that endearingly) in my town and they only have a couple guns each. One guy has only one, an Alexander Bluewater which he uses for anything from 2lb to 70lb fish.
Spinal Tap . You are what I would call "biased" and because of that you missed Some of the important things that was said.You have misunderstood
the post because no one said that there products wasn't good.
My post all but actually says "I'm biased". I admit I haven't read each post of this thread carefully. Technical stuff bore me. I'll expand on this further down.
You've either misunderstood or side stepped my point about attacking their intent. Below in Italics is what I'm referring to.
We have a manufacture that post on here quite often and they never have a problem because they don't feed us hyped up techno babble about there products.They give it to us on the level ,straight and true.As an educated/ business man I would expect you to have better communication skills to be able to talk to someone about something you know more of without belittling them .
Perhaps you could have rephrased Rick's "techno babble" into a more digestable terms, or were you just mad you couldn't comprehend what he was writing about?
Could it be possible that the discussion was of a technical nature, and Rick actually needed to use what ever "techno babble" to describe whatever he was describing?
Out of curiosity, who is this other manufacturer? I know Mark L of Omer has written some detailed stuff, but I don't believe he actually manufactures those products. I could be wrong.
Anyways, to conclude this point. You're implying that Rick or Daryl's intent in participating in this thread was to used "techno babble" to feed you guys hype. You also felt that experienced businessmen such as Rick and Daryl were in this thread to belittle some participants.
My lead in on my Original post used product and character as an example, but attacking their intent was the focus.
I just found
some of there statements questionable.
You could have said it just like that and then reference those questionable statements.
Just a question for you would you feel any different if it was another company and you owned three of there brand?
I don't follow. Are you asking if I would take the time to respond on this thread had it been another company (whose product I own)?
I'll take a stab at answering your question anyways...
That depends on the person(s). Is he a person I want to be friends with? Would I be proud to know him and call him my friend? I made it pretty clear in my post that I consider Rick and Daryl to be my friends who happen to make spearguns.
Do you know any owner(s) of gun companies that would help you pick up a used gun (one of his) that you bought from a guy near him, fix any damages, and send it to you with some fresh bands for free?
There are people that own things and have strong feelings toward them but have know idea what what makes them better or maybe equal to something else.I don't own any of the major brands and anytime I hear one talk about something they offer that other companies don't have, I try and find out what it is all about .I don't believe it just because they say it ,I believe it because it has been proven as fact.Some people don't question anything and people like me always have questions.
Thanks for the veiled insult. Technical stuff bore the hell out of me. If I'm not mistaken, you're a fan of euro type guns...Spearguns in general seem to be heading in the right direction and making some great progress. Just for reference I have never shot or even held a euro gun but reconize the advantages of using one . . You wrote this last July. To me that sounds like you read up on euro guns and liked what you read about them, so they're for you?
Did you ask all the questions you can before buying your Bandito Panther?
One thing I would say to you is that since you are a friend and you own three of there guns some people could think that you're a represenative of what they stand for and if you did something that was out of line it would reflect on them.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've read on this website. What the hell kind of logic is this?
If I was seen as a represenative of another company I should't go around throwing punches at people for the products they produce.
You lost me there champ. Did I diss another maker's products?
If you look at some of the equipment some of the more seasoned guys use you will notice they have different brands and when they choose one over the other it is because of it's intended use and not because of it's brand name, Something we(or at least I) can look foward to .
Well that depends on the seasoned guys you know. I dive with a handful of old bastards (and I call them that endearingly) in my town and they only have a couple guns each. One guy has only one, an Alexander Bluewater which he uses for anything from 2lb to 70lb fish.
:ko Let's get real here folks. This thread has degenerated into a whole lot of sillyness.
This thread began by Warthaug asking if it is possible to home brew a safe trigger. And the answer is yes! Indeed, Fish Tale has made such a thing and posted it for all to see. He even shared it with Warthaug. He has gone out of his way to show others how to do it and to help them do it. I applaud his efforts. Kudos to Fish Tail. We need more like him posting here.
All the talk about it being somehow wrong or impossible to make a safe trigger from scratch is hogwash. It is possible to make stronger, better, closer tolerance trigggers at home than some of the punched part or plastic part versions available on many commercial guns. Each and every commercial trigger in existence was prototyped by someone. And guess what? He or they put on his or their respective pants the same way we all do. One leg at a time.
This is not to say that good safe triggers are easy to design and make. That is not true. A practical knowledge of engineering and materials is necessary. Good intuition is also useful. Extreme detail consciousness is a requirement. The typical teenager and the typical adult simply do not have the requisite knowlege, skills, tools or talent to do the job. Those folks should buy a commercially made trigger. But that does not mean that others who have what it takes should not go forward. Fish Tail is a prime example of a fellow who has what it takes.
To manufacturers and would be manufacturers let me suggest that we readers are aware of the self serving nature of many posts made throughout this forum. We can tell when real information is being passed and when falshoods, platitudes and stories of no real value to the reader are being posted. Self serving posts with little real information anger readers. This can be seen by the reactions in this thread. All will help their sales if real information is posted rather than simple warnings with implicit or explicit suggestions to "buy our stuff". Also, if protecting the public is a reason to post, tell the truth, give concrete actual examples and in depth analysis of trigger design and construction and show how hard it really is to make a safe trigger. That will discourage more persons, who should be buyers rather than makers, than what has been posted so far.
For those who have an interest in some of the issues that make a good trigger, check out the US Patent Office web site and search for "biller" and "speargun" then look at the images. There you will learn a bit about trigger design.
FWIW, I would like to point out there are two safety issues in regard to triggers which need to be differentiated. One is whether the trigger will survive the load put on it (one time or over much use) and the other is whether the trigger has a "safety" that will prevent firing until placed in the fire position. It so happens that there are some commercial high quality hand made guns that have a very strong trigger but no safety. Is that gun safe? Should such a gun go on or around a boat or another diver? Hmmm.
Just my 2 cents worth.
oneoldude
This thread began by Warthaug asking if it is possible to home brew a safe trigger. And the answer is yes! Indeed, Fish Tale has made such a thing and posted it for all to see. He even shared it with Warthaug. He has gone out of his way to show others how to do it and to help them do it. I applaud his efforts. Kudos to Fish Tail. We need more like him posting here.
All the talk about it being somehow wrong or impossible to make a safe trigger from scratch is hogwash. It is possible to make stronger, better, closer tolerance trigggers at home than some of the punched part or plastic part versions available on many commercial guns. Each and every commercial trigger in existence was prototyped by someone. And guess what? He or they put on his or their respective pants the same way we all do. One leg at a time.
This is not to say that good safe triggers are easy to design and make. That is not true. A practical knowledge of engineering and materials is necessary. Good intuition is also useful. Extreme detail consciousness is a requirement. The typical teenager and the typical adult simply do not have the requisite knowlege, skills, tools or talent to do the job. Those folks should buy a commercially made trigger. But that does not mean that others who have what it takes should not go forward. Fish Tail is a prime example of a fellow who has what it takes.
To manufacturers and would be manufacturers let me suggest that we readers are aware of the self serving nature of many posts made throughout this forum. We can tell when real information is being passed and when falshoods, platitudes and stories of no real value to the reader are being posted. Self serving posts with little real information anger readers. This can be seen by the reactions in this thread. All will help their sales if real information is posted rather than simple warnings with implicit or explicit suggestions to "buy our stuff". Also, if protecting the public is a reason to post, tell the truth, give concrete actual examples and in depth analysis of trigger design and construction and show how hard it really is to make a safe trigger. That will discourage more persons, who should be buyers rather than makers, than what has been posted so far.
For those who have an interest in some of the issues that make a good trigger, check out the US Patent Office web site and search for "biller" and "speargun" then look at the images. There you will learn a bit about trigger design.
FWIW, I would like to point out there are two safety issues in regard to triggers which need to be differentiated. One is whether the trigger will survive the load put on it (one time or over much use) and the other is whether the trigger has a "safety" that will prevent firing until placed in the fire position. It so happens that there are some commercial high quality hand made guns that have a very strong trigger but no safety. Is that gun safe? Should such a gun go on or around a boat or another diver? Hmmm.
Just my 2 cents worth.
oneoldude
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Like I said...I trust my life to no safety! I had a Riffe and the safety was always falling out. Ive had billers and jbl's and had their safeties fail! The safety is the bands not being stretched.oneoldude said:
Thanks for the input though...