Trigger Q's

Spinal Tap said:

Oh where to begin...

Spinal Tap . You are what I would call "biased" and because of that you missed Some of the important things that was said.You have misunderstood
the post because no one said that there products wasn't good.

My post all but actually says "I'm biased". I admit I haven't read each post of this thread carefully. Technical stuff bore me. I'll expand on this further down.

You've either misunderstood or side stepped my point about attacking their intent. Below in Italics is what I'm referring to.

We have a manufacture that post on here quite often and they never have a problem because they don't feed us hyped up techno babble about there products.They give it to us on the level ,straight and true.As an educated/ business man I would expect you to have better communication skills to be able to talk to someone about something you know more of without belittling them .

Perhaps you could have rephrased Rick's "techno babble" into a more digestable terms, or were you just mad you couldn't comprehend what he was writing about?

I could dumb it down for you but the just of it is you don't have to be a rocket scientist to build a decent trigger

Could it be possible that the discussion was of a technical nature, and Rick actually needed to use what ever "techno babble" to describe whatever he was describing?

It is possible but what differce would it make of some people reading could not understand what he was talking about or did not bother to read becaused it board them.

Out of curiosity, who is this other manufacturer? I know Mark L of Omer has written some detailed stuff, but I don't believe he actually manufactures those products. I could be wrong.

Believe or not everything they sell they don't make .You missed when they said that.

Anyways, to conclude this point. You're implying that Rick or Daryl's intent in participating in this thread was to used "techno babble" to feed you guys hype. You also felt that experienced businessmen such as Rick and Daryl were in this thread to belittle some participants.

They're intent was to teach some people about speargun triggers.

My lead in on my Original post used product and character as an example, but attacking their intent was the focus.

The way I read there post they made it sound like making a safe trigger was beyond the capability of
the common man.



I just found
some of there statements questionable.

You could have said it just like that and then reference those questionable statements.They were mentioned ,you must have read over it.


Just a question for you would you feel any different if it was another company and you owned three of there brand?

I don't follow. Are you asking if I would take the time to respond on this thread had it been another company (whose product I own)?

I'll take a stab at answering your question anyways...

That depends on the person(s). Is he a person I want to be friends with? Would I be proud to know him and call him my friend? I made it pretty clear in my post that I consider Rick and Daryl to be my friends who happen to make spearguns.

It has nothing to do with friends .I was asking if we was talking about riffes and you had only riffe would you fill the same?

Do you know any owner(s) of gun companies that would help you pick up a used gun (one of his) that you bought from a guy near him, fix any damages, and send it to you with some fresh bands for free?
]
What do you think of companys that doesn't do that?

There are people that own things and have strong feelings toward them but have know idea what what makes them better or maybe equal to something else.I don't own any of the major brands and anytime I hear one talk about something they offer that other companies don't have, I try and find out what it is all about .I don't believe it just because they say it ,I believe it because it has been proven as fact.Some people don't question anything and people like me always have questions.

Thanks for the veiled insult. Technical stuff bore the hell out of me. If I'm not mistaken, you're a fan of euro type guns...Spearguns in general seem to be heading in the right direction and making some great progress. Just for reference I have never shot or even held a euro gun but reconize the advantages of using one . . You wrote this last July. To me that sounds like you read up on euro guns and liked what you read about them, so they're for you?

I don't understand your point.I not only read up on them but built my own.Im also going to start building a hybrid in about two weeks .You must have missed that thread in your search.


Did you ask all the questions you can before buying your Bandito Panther?
No questions needed .Members on this forum with simular situations answered
all the questions I had.
Also you missed the part about why I bought it .Because it was affortable and suited the low vis water we have here.

One thing I would say to you is that since you are a friend and you own three of there guns some people could think that you're a represenative of what they stand for and if you did something that was out of line it would reflect on them.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've read on this website. What the hell kind of logic is this?

If you don't understand what I was saying there is no point of having a discussion with you.

If I was seen as a represenative of another company I should't go around throwing punches at people for the products they produce.

You lost me there champ. Did I diss another maker's products?
No you didn't .
I was making a reference to other peoples behavior.

If you look at some of the equipment some of the more seasoned guys use you will notice they have different brands and when they choose one over the other it is because of it's intended use and not because of it's brand name, Something we(or at least I) can look foward to .

Well that depends on the seasoned guys you know. I dive with a handful of old bastards (and I call them that endearingly) in my town and they only have a couple guns each. One guy has only one, an Alexander Bluewater which he uses for anything from 2lb to 70lb fish.

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If you look at some of the pics in the fish photo section you will see some guys with very respectable catches .And they have several photos with different guns in each photo either differt styles or by different makers.

You didn't read very much of what was written and you're to angry to understand anything I said . If you're going to search thru old post to find ammo you should atleast come up with something decent.I sent you that pm to help you understand what happened but you said you half read thru it too so I don't think there is anything that I haven't said that can help you.

ajwaverider said:

If you look at some of the pics in the fish photo section you will see some guys with very respectable catches .And they have several photos with different guns in each photo either differt styles or by different makers.

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I know there are guys with a lot of different guns who take lots of nice fish. I was trying to show you that there are guys who've been diving for decades that take very nice fish with one gun. With the exception of one guy, most guys I know have guns by one or two gun makers and buy different size guns. Doesn't that make sense? You buy one, like it, you get more in another size...

ajwaverider said:

You didn't read very much of what was written and you're to angry to understand anything I said .

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You're making an assumption. Just because I said techincal stuff bore me, doesn't mean I didn't go through the entire thread. It started out amicable until Gilbert decided to lay those landmines because he's spent the last few years reverse engineering the most well known American triggers and sharing on the internet what the Rick may not have wanted to share. Rick responded in a way I'd expect anyone to.

ajwaverider said:

If you're going to search thru old post to find ammo you should atleast come up with something decent.

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Well you're the one that proclaim to be the kind of guy that asks alot of questions and insinuating that I'm just a little sheep that follows the crowd. I actually read your old posts a little while back and what you wrote (that you asked a lot of questions...) in the previous post kinda contradicts something I read, so I searched it out. In an old post you said that you've never held or shot a euro gun but you recognized the advantages of them. Well, that doesn't sound like you exhausted all your questions before deciding that an entire genre of guns was for you.

You bought a Bandito Panther off the internet. What questions did you ask about it's performance to conclude that gun's capabilities were "proven as fact"?

If what you say is true about the length of time you'be been diving, then I've spent more time looking for my "game" gun than you've been actually diving. I don't post much because there are guys who've been diving longer than I've been alive. I shut up and listen/read, and then if I feel I have something different to contribute I chime in with an opinion.

That's another buga boo of mine. There are a lot of newbies getting into spearfishing these last few years, and those guys seem to know it all. They go and read everything they can find and become "experts" behind their keyboard. The problem is that not everything they've read is accurate, but they don't have the diving experience to know. So when an even newer newbie gets on these sites to ask, they're anxiously writing a response...sometimes a wrong or even dangerous answer. I've digressed, but I doubt you'll read this far. After my detailed almost point by point response to your post, all I got was a "you're too angry to unerstand..."

I'm done with this. You can have the last word and win.

Trigger

The thread is going out. The last posts didn't even include the word TRIGGER. Guys, there is PM for personnal things, and threads for public things!

Hey children,
I'm amazed that no one in this thread has pointed out what is to me the most obvious danger in "home made" triggers.
Here I am struggling to cope in what we call the compensation culture, which we're lead to believe comes from the States. I stuggle to fill in "risk assessments" for almost everything from making a cup of coffee upwards. Making a trigger for a gun, hell, that would cause heart attacks all round.
If a trigger failed and someone got shot you wouldn't be able to move for lawyers looking to sue someone. Now I guess that if it was a commercial trigger then the manufacturers would a). have legal insurance and b). could show a history of safety testing etc.
If you made your own trigger and it failed and injured someone do you think you would have the same protection as the commercial companies. Even if you did, them land sharks (sorry any legal eagles out there) would chew you up and spit you out.
I love engeneering and design but I think you gotta be sensible here.
"Just because you can doesn't mean you should" - Jurrasic Park.
Dave

Someone in this thread has actually pointed out what is to me the most obvious danger of a loaded speargun whether they be home made or commercially made.

History has shown that if a user mishandles a loaded speargun it is dangerous. "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" - Jurrasic Park.

Here's a bunch of "Just because you can" - Jurrasic Park examples: [ame="http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=13724"]When to load speargun? before or after - Spearboard Spearfishing Community[/ame]

Three pages of peoples experiences. Of the guns that discharged unexpectedly how many of the triggers were commercialy made, how many were home built.

If a speargun discharge injures someone other than the user the speargun was being mishandled.

Hey Gang,
I tried to stay out of this because I am no expert on trigger mechaninsm. I am like most people that post here and am just a diver who like to kill and eat fish. That being said I am partial to certain guns. These are the guns that have and continue to produce for me. I have tried everything from a Mares Califonian Pnuematic to a GilbertG prototype 110 this weekend. Regarding guns this is what I have found starting from my first ending with this weekend.

The Mares Californian sucked. No range, very little power and everytime I shot it, there was a very loud "boom" underwater and every fish within sight spooked.

JBL Magnum was a good beginer gun. It was cheap (free), had decent range and killed fish. The trigger was sticky and it was not very accurate. It did howerer stone my biggest fish to date so props to the JBL.

Wong 55" woodie with Alexander trigger. I still have this gun and have shot many good fish with it. This was my pride and joy for many years and will never give it up. The thing shoots straight and can handle three 3/4 inch bands without having any stick or change in trigger pull. Very nice and comfortable to shoot overall. That being said, I don't use much because I prefer the manueverability of the euro style gun. However, when I need a powerful reef gun, the Wong gets the call.

Custom 65 inch blue water gun. Designed by my good friend Josh after the Wong Ono gun. It is made of Koa, has an eclosed track, Alexander trigger and slip tip, Riffe 5/16 inch shaft, and handles five 5/8 inch bands. Very powerful and deadly accurate. Strictly for blue water as it is a beast to lug around.

Sampled the RA 100. I couldn't figure out how to aim with it and managed to miss everything I shot at. Not a bad gun just didn't have the time to get used to it.

Escalpez Challenger 90. Missed my first two shots then nailed the next two. Cute gun and very easy to handle. It was this gun that sold me on the Euro.

Sporasub Aspic 100 with a Beauchat reel. This is my bread and butter gun. With a single 20 mm band, JBL track, and a 17/64 shaft this gun is money. I haven't noticed any significant difference in trigger pull since switching out the 16 mm band to the 20 mm and have never had it misfire on me. All in all, this gun is bad ass!

Riffe C4 rear handle. Good gun, with a smooth trigger pull. I have small hands so I don't like the Riffe handle. Actually used this gun because I had the shooting line snap on the Aspic on an Ulua earlier in the day. Good thing my partner that day brought the Riffe or I would have been bumming.

GilbertG 110 prototype. I can't say how much I was impressed by this gun. The craftsmanship and design are awesome. This was an enclosed track woodie with a rear handle, shot a 17/64 shaft powered by two 9/16 bands. The trigger pull was super smooth and it worked flawlessly. The power and accuracy were also superb. I can honestly say that when Gilbert's guns are on the market, I will purchase a 120 with the same design as the prototype I used on Saturday.

Okay, some may say that I am plugging Gilbert's gun because he is a friend of mine. Yeah, I consider Gilbert a friend but keep in mind that I just met him on Saturday. He, Uluapounder, my roommate and I head to the beach and next thing I know Gilbert pulls out five prototype guns and tell us to choose which one we want to try. If that was a marketing ploy it worked as I was truely impressed by the gun I used. To further clarify my previous statement that I am partial to what works for me, here is a rundown of current gear. Piccaso Apnos 3mm wetsuit, Special Fins Hybrid hard fins, Seacsub X One mask, Impulse 2 snorkle, grey Atlas gloves, Sporasub Aspic 100, polypro tagline of various lengths, 8 foot Kawabunga hybrid pole spear, and a $20 Sporasub inflatable float. I'll cuntinue to use my current gear until I find stuff that works better. As far as triggers go, as long it works I'm okay with it. I wouldn't even try to load three bands on the Aspic to shoot an Ulua nor would I try to shoot an Ono with a single band on my blue water gun. Different stroke for different folks and different guns for different applications. Just my opinion here.

Brad

w3ac

pictures of the gilbertg gun with specifications?

thanks

big guns

e.t.

fishtale

thats a clever design you have there

good

E.T

Spearingfish said:

fishtale

thats a clever design you have there

good

E.T

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Thank you!

I took the 38 inch gun out for a quicky trip yesterday afternoon. I didn't find anything I wanted to shoot but we can add another hour of loaded gun time without a failure of malfunction. Having a hands on "feel" for how strong the guns and triggers that I've built are; I would be very surprised if they had a failure. Even with the confidence I have in my work I would never treat them as if they couldn't accidentally discharge.

Well I kind of want to go to bed, but being new around here I just found this thread and wanted to make 2 very short points.

1. Most trigger mechanisms I have seen whether homemade or not simply cannot discharge accidentally without some material failing. When you build a homemade trigger mechanism you should probably consider what a reasonable load would be and make sure your materials can handle that load. It is great and certainly a compliment to the abilities of the designers that many commercially made trigger mechanisms can handle 1500 pounds of force or whatever, but how would 1500 pounds of force ever end up being applied to a homemade speargun? And it would seem to me like something other than the trigger would fail if that much force was applied.

2. Point 1 shouldnt matter at all. I am personally a shooting person (rifles mainly) and many different gun manufacturers claim their trigger mechanisms to be the best in the world. But of all the people who are accidentally killed every year by guns, almost none are because the trigger failed. They are because someone pulled it. Just doint point the thing at people and it doesnt matter how good or bad your trigger is.


All that being said I certainly do not mean to slight commercial triggers whatsoever. If it makes you feel safest go with a commercial one. If it fails then sue someone, but it wont fail. If you feel competent just make your own.

GilbertG. said:

Rick, Daryl,

I'm sorry that you've taken offense to my posts. But I posted because I was not only in disagreement with some of your statements, but by the way it transpired. I followed this thread from the beginning and was enjoying the exchange of opinions until someone from your camp decided to call the rest of the guys making homemade triggers "silly". That was rather mild compared to whats thrown around on these boards from time to time. Like you I opt to stay out of most of the discussions. But then both of you stepped in to exercise your rightful opinion with the subtle bellitlement of Mr Milhouse, who's tinkering with spearguns I can appreciate, and who's conceding to avoid further argument I admire. It was only until Rick had stated that sears should be harder than shafts or else they'll fail is when I balked. And that he went as far as telling a half-truth to prove a point to Milhouse. And one that Daryl enforced. Not only that, the apparent "plug" about your triggers mechs after making your point.

I agreed wholeheartedly with your advice about safety. But Rick, I disagreed with your statement about sear hardness from the moment I read it, which led me to test it. I simply pulled your trigger out and filed on it. ANYONE could have done this and anyone could have pointed that out. But most people won't have the balls to come out and say it.

I doubted that you use a proprietary alloy only available to you, so I thought I'd ask what it was made out of. Let me point out that Omer as well as other manufacturers routinely advertises their sear material and the material of everything else in their product line, so I thought my question wasn't out of line. If you do use an exotic material then why not advertise it? All we get from you guys is "spaceage" and "a variety of materials".

Statements made on these forums are often a trial by jury. If no one disagrees then it's likely to be taken as fact. But you see, words are even more likely to be taken as fact if they are coming from a reputable manufacturer. Which is why both of you have an obligation to be completely honest about your products to the less informed consumer. If you say something that wasn't quite correct and you wish to take back, you can always say that you made a mistake and correct yourself. It takes some guts to do this, but in the end people will instill even more trust in both you and your products.

Rick, it sounds impressive that you've tested one thing 2500 times. It would be mind blowing if you've tested 2500 things. Food for thought.

Rick and Daryl, I'm not putting down your products. They work fine just like everything else out there. I don't aim to ruin your business by pestering you like this.

I might add that I am still quite naive about running a business and my etiquette may not be quite so savory. I DO have lessons to be learned. I'll take this as one of them. But I might also add that I have learned some hard lessons as a practicing engineer. A few of them being, never say words you can't back up, if it don't make sense ask questions, and never underestimate the abilities of your competitor....

Again, my regards,

Gilbert Gacula

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This thread is a shame, it should be closed or deleted goes far in the "lessa Majestad" crime. And is also Silly, how you dare....

seaman said:

This thread is a shame, it should be closed or deleted goes far in the "lessa Majestad" crime. And is also Silly, how you dare....

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I had counted this thread as long dead and burried then someone who seems to want it gone or locked, floats it back to the top of the forum for everyone to view and continue comment on. Now that's really funny! rofl

I think the thread is fascinating. The thread digs into speargun trigger design and safety and custom built spearguns like very few places on the internet do. It's good for spearfisherman to understand and actually think about what contributes to a strong, safe, efficient hunting weapon. The thread also encourages innovation in spearfishing. Continued innovation is a good thing for the future of spearfishing.

If some people have expressed themselves in a way that reflects poorly on their character or motives... well; they did so of their own free will.