Tropol monofin - angle survey

[trux]

Thanks, Fondueset, for the feedback.

... In terms of fit criteria - based on my experience - my fin is very tight compared to my waterway nemo or any of my bifins. I normally need about 15 minutes for my feet to adjust to the fin and, after I take it off, I need about 5 minutes for my feet to relax back into 'walking' configuration ...

I wonder if the tight fit plays really a role (especially at slow, kick-and-glide freedivers). Is the difference of the power transmission or the "feel of water" really so important? And do not the tight footpockets hinder relaxation, well-being feeling, and don't they cause cramps or tetanised muscles, increasing so O2 consumption, and being so actually counter productive?

Although bi-finner, I speak from personal experience - recently I changed fins, the style, and forgot my socks couple of times, hence swimming with very loose footpockets. My style is now very slow, similar to the kick-and-glide style - I swim close to the bottom, very relaxed, and only do very low amplitude short double scissor kick, using the return from the pool bottom, and then glide long. I do not really feel that the loose footpockets hinder the performance, but I do feel quite positively the relaxed swimming and the relaxed feet, experiencing less cramps than before. I am not sure whether tight fitting footpockets would translate into more length.

But then again, I am just an intermediate freediver, and no top competitor, so perhaps on the top level it may play a bigger role. Though, on my mind, at the kick-and-gliding freedivers, who spend the majority of the time and distance in gliding position, the ratio of comfort and relaxation over tight fit and power transmission should be much higher than at fast swimmers with continuous kick.

 

[Fondueset]

I would say yes - force transmission is really quite important. The challenge, for a recreational monofin, is to optimize this without causing cramping and circulation problems. I am very happy with the feel and performance of my fin.

All of my best and longest dives have been with my monofin - so I would say there is no adverse effect unless foot pain becomes extreme.

 

[trux]

Just curious, do some of the Russian monofin footpockets have a bulge under the foot arc, to avoid crashing it with the tight footpocket? On my experience with ski shoes, tightly closed shoe with unsufficient sole profile crashes the foot bridge, causes extreme pain, and consequent strong cramps in whole legs. I'd also tell that footpockets with profiled soles would transmit the force much better than with flat bottom. And I believe most of monofin footpockets I saw so far, had all flat bottom. Well, it is true though that I did not look at any glide type monofin closely yet, so perhaps it is different there.

EDIT: or would the sole profile make the footpocket too stiff, reducing so the feet/ankle flexibility?

 

[Kars]

Hi All,

I'm pleased seeing that more people are chiming in this interesting discussion developing the best Freediver's monofin.

As for measurement of foot size and blade stiffness, I recommend sticking to the industries' current standards, simply because in ordering people can relate to the well known standard such as the Water Way Classic fin.

1) What would be nice is a more closely grouped size stafle: (40-41) (42-43) (44-45) instead of the old spacing like: (40-43) (44-47)


Blade stiffness:

2) I think it would be nice to have 4 stiffness levels: sprint, medium, medium - soft, soft.
Personally I'm using a Hyperfin (brand name) Medium. Which in practice feels softer than a Water Way Classic medium - MD2. I would not recommend soft for the Glide stroke, nor I would recommend a soft or medium - soft for deep diving. This is because at depths greater than say 25m people are generally 5 KG negative, and a soft fin cannot handle the power to swim up.

Foot pockets:

3) A closely fitting foot pocket, for efficient energy transfer and better control.
Similar to Fondueset's wish, a bit more room at the toes, and some more stretch at top of the arch. The bi fins such as the Cressi Gara 2000 have this done by combining softer rubber with plastic at the place where the bulk of the power is applied. In a way the Water Way classic foot pockets do provide a pretty good fit because the almost squarely moulded foot pocket is flexible enough to flex around the foot's arch.

4) Trux' proposed foot arch supporting bulge would also be very supportive, though I would not overdo it.

5) Foot specific shape's. I would VERY much like to see a truly foot specific shape's for the left and right foot. Just like C4 has done for their bi-fins.

6) A vacuum hole at the end of the pocket is also a simple improvement.

7) Supported heels, also add to comfort and efficiency.

8) A neoprene patch of 3mm glued inside the foot pocket is also a great addition helping a better, more comfortable and -important- closer fit. The modern Water Way Classic fins have these.

I dive without socks, mainly it's not necessary for the 1 - 2 hour dives in the 18c water (surface temp). Also I really notice a fairly big difference in efficiency and feel and control when more power is applied, when deep down. Currently I dive to 40 - 65m.
Diving with 'loose' feet in a monofin is fairly horrible and a big distraction.
Though without socks, I use plastic and soap to have a closer, tight fit and avoid blisters.

Enclosing, I find wearing a fin puts pressure on the foot, but when applied at the right area's one will get used to it, becoming more flexible within 3 - 5 training sessions.
For those who want to remain very comfortable or like to wear 5 mm socks I suggest buying a size bigger. That is possible thanks to an above mentioned more sizes available.

Finishing, I too like to test your fin, again, as I had the pleasure doing at Nordic deep last year!

Keep reading, asking and learning!

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[jome]

Hi,

My quick comments and wishes:
-I prefer soft to medium blade, but of course it would be nice to have the whole range available.
-I prefer comfort to agony - there might be a marginal performance improvement in agonizing footpocket tightness, but at least for me it is far outweighed by the benefits of being able to dive comfortable - not least because it makes training much more fun and thus more frequent. Training is supposed to feel hard, even agonizing sometimes, but I think the focus is wrong if the agony is caused by a tight foot pocket and not sore muscles or breathing reflex

But again, it would be nice to have the option of "performance" footpocket. What finswimmers talk about a lot is "a starting fin" (freely translated). Ie you have one basic fin for training. More comfortable, more durable, perhaps cheaper - you do your volume training with that. Then you have one "super fin" that you only put on for serious performance dives. Often cherished for years, patched endlessly and loved to death. It doesn't need to be comfortable, you only need it for one dive.

From a commercial point of view, I think serving the recreational or semi-serious crowd would make more sense than the elite - who are a couple of dozen people in the world and often cheap Where as the average joe has money to burn, endless craving for new stuff and the silly idea that equipment makes a diver

But if I had to choose: comfort rather than "performance" - soft rather than hard. I also firmly believe that it's not impossible to make a both comfortable and well performing footpocket. A big step is to make the toe-end of it a bit wider and softer. Not the old "rubery wedge"-type that is in cheap monofins. Even a hint of anatomical design would do wonders. Just look at how running shoes have evolved. Everyone has different feet, yet still there are good general models available that are quite comfortable.

 

[Fondueset]

I was in the pool for 3 hours during 50 yard laps with and without my fin. Had to take a break after 90 minutes to rest my feet so I did no fins laps.

I think if these guys can match the performance and comfort of the standard non-axial footpocket - but in silicone rather than the highly degradable rubber now in use - and if they can put the fin together well - they will have created a superior product. Make the pocket tight where it has to be, loose where it can. Do it in standard or 1/2 sizes - give us 4 or 5 blade stiffnesses and maybe two angles (30 and whatever the standard current non-axial angle is - I think around 23 degrees) we're good. No point in overthinking it. bulk of fins sold will probably be medium - with soft second and hard third.

 

[TimoP]

What seems key to me is avoiding compression of the toes, and sides of the foot while still having the fin fit snugly so that power is well transmitted. In other words - the fin must fit tightly in areas that are key for force transmission - without putting undue pressure on the feet in areas that are not relevant.

That's the point ! And as said many times, footpockets of a new monofin don't usually feel comfortable on the first week in use, but after some weeks they should be so comfortable, that you can use monofin for hours without a break. Different shape in left and right foot pocket would be nice (I have noticed that they use this kind of techology in shoes, don't they )

In Northern and Central Europe, in Canada, in the northern part of USA and prob in NZ you must have (mainly 3-5 mm) neopren socks in open water, simply because the water is cold especially in wintertimes. In pools and in southern warm open waters a 1-3 mm "monofin toe sock" is good for "toe comfort", but not everybody use them. But if you'll use a thick sock, you can take a larger foot pocket size, if needed. Somebody use socks on the outside of the foot pockets in wintertime, but that's a kind of speciality...

 

[Stuart]

I dive reguarly in cold water and much prefer a tight fitting foot pocket. It is a leak of energy (physical + psychic) to have your foot sloshing around. Build a footpocket for performance. In fact build a fin for performance!

 

[Fondueset]

I also dive regularly in very cold water - about 34F (1C). If the fin is too tight - the feet very quickly become a limiting factor. I've used my fin with 1.5, 3 and 5 mil socks. Obviously its best with the 5mil in terms of performance - but in the pool I use 3 mils and it feels pretty solid. I wore it with 1.5mil socks for six hours and it felt fin - though I did get some chaffing on one toe. I think Max, who built it, really knows what he's doing in terms of footpocket construction. In any case - the problem is solved just by having different sizes - if you need thick socks you can go up a size.

 

[ahofbauer]

Hi there!

Human feet come in a lot of different shapes
an sizes:

There are broad feet and narrow feet,
high arches and low arches
AND very especially, there are small feet also

We have been completely unable to get fitting
monos for my wife... her shoes are size 4 (mexican)
corresponding roughly to size 34 (european)
The only exception are "Finis Wave Fins" (really BAD)

About 70% of all mexicans have very small feet (as
compared to european or american standards),
men and women alike. The problem, however, does
exist in a lot of countries.

So far, our (most recent) solution has been to bolt
some bike-shoes to a fin blade (a good idea from
Lunocet-Ted)

Someone also suggested that it would be a nice idea
to have a printable template of the footpockets inner
shape (as seen from above and from one side) so You
can cut it out of a piece of cardboard and see if it suits
Your feet in size and shape and maybe also a angle
template to measure the angle between leg and foot
when stretched.

Too many people consider the purchase of a mono a
kind of russian roulette, because the probability of
getting the right footpocket is small.
The net if full of complaints!

Uhhhh....
...and please, please, please try to design a monofin
THAT FITS THROUGH a normal airport x-ray machine.
There are airports where NO EXCEPTIONS ARE MADE,
meaning that the fin MUST be x-rayed!