• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

UK gun choice question

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Pastor

Supporter
Supporter
Mar 17, 2004
3,773
698
0
59
Something that has been making me wonder for some time now. Whilst I understand that 95% of the guns we use are made for the Mediterranean spearos by the major European makers and that they have been accepted as the norm because of limited choice. Is this the only reason why very few of us use mid handled guns? They have many advantages over the rear handled types especially with our general poor or changeable viability. They are length for length much easier to handle and to work with in kelp. Most of us use smallish guns and hunt at closish range but how often have we needed a bit extra range when using a short gun?

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this
 
  • Like
Reactions: spaghetti and Mr. X
Pastor;678391 Most of us use smallish guns and hunt at closish range but how often have we needed a bit extra range when using a short gun? I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on this[/QUOTE said:
When the vis is good!?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!
 
  • Like
Reactions: spaghetti
When I first started looking for a gun, I was surprised how few guns, esp. euro-guns are mid-handled. Perhaps it's the old images of James Bond but as you suggest, a mid-handle gun would seem to offer many of the benefits of both a short gun (reduced turning inertia) and a long gun (long rubbers/spear/range). My conclusion was it was probably something to do with simplicity & cost.

I would think a gun that combines the benefits of a short gun (say 65-75cm) and a long gun (90-100cm) would be the ideal all round gun for the UK.

BTW Foxfish, I had a "Mamba moment" yesterday. Clear vis., big fish, direct hit - spear did not penetrate [see Dorset 2007 thread for details]! The area near the gill plate is often very tough, lots of bone & cartilage - perhaps bigger fish should be shot a little further back?
 
Last edited:
The only mid handled I've ever tried was grandfather's Mares Titan a looong time ago, and this makes of it a very limited experience but here's my two cents: when you hold a mid handled, your body is closer to the spear, and closer to the fish, than it would be with a rear handle of the same length. This is a problem, because our fish (bass mullet bream) are very shy and they easily get scared if the mass of a man's body comes too close to them. That's why a rear handle, compared to a mid handle, allows you to keep your body enough far off the fish to do less scaring, but the spear is still close enough to hit it.
Moreover, I think that aiming with a mid handle is less instinctive than with a rear handle, and an accurate aiming on quick, instinctive shots is very important with nervous fish like bass mullett and breams.
After all, look how many speargun manufacturers there are in Europe, not only italians byut also french, spanish, greek, turkish: none of them is making mid handled guns, and the few who used to, gave it up over 30 years ago. There must be some technical reason.
About carrying two guns: Mr.X I don't carry two, I carry three: small, medium, large. Strapped on the float of clipped under the buoy they really make no harm. You will have at hand the right gun for every hunting situation.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Pastor and Mr. X
Interesting.
...to, gave it up over 30 years ago. There must be some technical reason.
About carrying two guns: Mr.X I don't carry two, I carry three: small, medium, large. Strapped on the float of clipped under the buoy they really make no harm. You will have at hand the right gun for every hunting situation.
Of course - the "holy trinity". Didn't realised you carry all at the same time. I am beginning to understand the reasoning. In the UK we have to give 2/3's of our income to the taxman, so we usually only have one to take. Also, we don't get holed-up Grouper. I think they do a similar sort of reef fishing for bass in Bognor(?) but sounds like the poor viz wouldn't warrant carrying a 100cm gun.
 
Last edited:
This is exactly what I mean :) I believe there are differences between how we hunt

when you hold a mid handled, your body is closer to the spear, and closer to the fish, than it would be with a rear handle of the same length. This is a problem, because our fish (bass mullet bream) are very shy and they easily get scared if the mass of a man's body comes too close to them. That's why a rear handle, compared to a mid handle, allows you to keep your body enough far off the fish to do less scaring, but the spear is still close enough to hit it.

Certainly in my experience of hunting Bass they are inquisitive fish and often they are too close to shoot and I have to wait for them to move out from in between me and my spear tip especially when they come in from behind. This is when a short gun is a useful tool but I didn't plan this, the fish could equally come in from the front and keep it's distance. A mid handle 90 is exactly like a 50-60 to use but with extra range.

Moreover, I think that aiming with a mid handle is less instinctive than with a rear handle, and an accurate aiming on quick, instinctive shots is very important with nervous fish like bass mullett and breams.

I would argue this, I find it much easier and faster to aim with a mid handle than with my rear handled guns, with the mids it is just a matter of pointing with my arm out beside me. Whereas with my Euros I need to sight down the shaft to get an aim. Now that might be just a personal thing but it works for me. My hit rate/accuracy has increased with a mid handle.

After all, look how many speargun manufacturers there are in Europe, not only italians byut also french, spanish, greek, turkish: none of them is making mid handled guns, and the few who used to, gave it up over 30 years ago. There must be some technical reason.

This was the point I was getting at in my first post and I think you are 100% right in that your preference for the rear handles is justified. In the UK I think things are different and that there could/should be a choice. I think however that here for some mid handles are a realistic option. I have 4 mid handles and 3 rear handled and use them all regularly depending on conditions.

About carrying two guns: Mr.X I don't carry two, I carry three: small, medium, large. Strapped on the float of clipped under the buoy they really make no harm. You will have at hand the right gun for every hunting situation.

This I cannot argue with, having the right gun is essential. However where I dive I cannot predict exactly where I will land on a dive, I cannot see the bottom, the vis can change from 1.5 to 4m within a few metres at times. Sometimes I dive and find myself tight into large rocks in poor vis and conversely sometimes on open ground in good vis. In strong currents it is hard to predict where exactly you are over your reef. This is where I think the versatility of the mid handle gun comes into its own. OK some days we have very good vis and the rear handle gun is the one to have but this isn't always the case.
 
Pastor,

You already know i'm interested in this...so, can you help me understand how you would accurately use a mid handle gun in a low tide shallow water (1-1.5m) kelp bed surface stalking situation. For me with a 75cm rear handle i sometimes almost have my trigger finger hand above the water- certainly right next to my face. Wouldn't a mid handle gun be a problem in situations such as these as the rear could potentially be out of the water? Is that a problem?

I have been seriously considering making a pistol style super short maybe 40cm for just such occasions. I know the range wont be anything to write home about but at least i wont be left with a bass underneath the handle of my gun being unable to do anything about it!

Another thing i have been wondering about is how accurate mid handles are when taking vertical shots? i only ask because almost 80% of my fish are shot from the surface directly above.

ben
 
Last edited:
Tell you what Pastor I am going to build one early next year then I can make more of a judgment. I have recently built two guns with rear mounted triggers - about 6'' behind the handle connected via s/s rod but I will have to look into how the Americans mount mid handles?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr. X
You're not the only one to be thinking along those lines.... either a mid handled shortie or a roller gun......maybe even a mid handled roller....has anyone done it? Could it be done? Is there any point....probably not!
 
My fav gun is a Riffe MT0 rigged with 1/4 " shaft. It shoots about 4 meters if the fish are not too heavily armored. Its also extremely sturdy - though it does sink with the shaft out. I'm working on a roller mod for it.

The mid-handles take some getting used to -particularly for longer shots - compared with the euro guns. They are more sort of 'slap-shot' guns.
 
...I think however that here for some mid handles are a realistic option. I have 4 mid handles and 3 rear handled and use them all regularly depending on conditions...

This I cannot argue with, having the right gun is essential. ...
Hi Pastor, I'm a little confused by your argument here. On one hand you're saying these mid-handled guns are really versatile (I'm thinking: "one gun for all UK conditions?") but on the other hand you have 4 different ones + 3 rear handled ones:D (...and which one is the "the right one"?;) Probably the Red Dragon Wong - right:D)

Ben, Foxfish already made a roller gun. Haven't heard much about though. I think shortly afterwards he discovered the Dark Side (bought and customized, a pneumatic gun, with Mamba kit to extra oomph:D).
 
Last edited:
I inherited two of the four a couple of years ago. I have a 90 which has been my go to gun for most days and the longer euros for good vis days, the Wong is very new to me and will be my good vis gun from now on. Of the two inherited guns one is an 80 the other a 60 (I think) The 80 is a cracking bad vis (<1m) gun the 60 to be honest I have only used once. I don't think there could ever be one gun for all occasions but I think these allow some flexibility on the day.

I'm not trying to argue that mid handles are better because they're not, they are just different. I'm just wondering what other British spearos thoughts are on their non use over here really. I too thought they were not for me until I tried Ali's Riffe a few years ago and now I'm sold.
 
I have a 75cm gun with a spear that comes a 6-8 inches from the muzzle, which as far as i can tell is the norm.

I have seen guns with the spear that pretty much ends AT the muzzle with the barb held within the gun. Is this a good thing/bad thing?
 
OK well between myself & my bro OMD we concluded many years ago that the best type of gun for our Guernsey waters was - a 90 or 100 euro style gun with the longest 6.5 spear you could get your hands on. We have used this set with a single 18 or 20mm band for 20 + years & never really found better!
Our logic is based on - you got to get real close to your target - or at leased your spear tip has too!?
Of course now I have moved on :martial
 
Before I tried one, I used to think a mid handle gun would be the solution to a whole load of problems, but since then I have used several different ones (several Riffes, a couple of customs, Nemrod and a prototype from a euro manufacturer.)
I find them less manouverable and adaptable than a rear handle of the same overall size. I find the section behind the handle gets in the way, particularly it catches on my bicep when moving the gun under my body with a bent arm. It is also not practical to hold the handle with a reverse grip and pull the trigger with your thumb (which is very useful low viz and hole fishing technique) I very rarely swing a gun round any distance. If a fish is more than a few feet from where the gun is pointing it is far better to bring the gun into your body, move it, then re-extend gun and arm. This is more awkward with a mid handle
Mid handles are inherently more bulky than a rear handle, and need that extra mass to compensate for the handle pivot point being so far off the centre line. This is not a problem if you are shooting a big thick shaft with multiple bands as you need the extra mass to control recoil anyway, but for the UK, there is never a need to use more than one rubber and a 6.5mm shaft, so you just dont need the bulk
I am not arguing that rear handle is better overall, just that there are reasons euro guns evolved the way they did. In my experience, shooting "small" fish is pretty similar all over the world, and Euroguns are perfectly adapted to do it
cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr. X
and a prototype from a euro manufacturer.)
Shame they didn't progress any further, do you have any more information?

I find them less manouverable and adaptable than a rear handle of the same overall size.
I find the opposite especially when trying to work in a confined space such as around weed.

I find the section behind the handle gets in the way, particularly it catches on my bicep when moving the gun under my body with a bent arm.
In some cases I'm sure this can happen, I'm not trying to say the mid handle design is perfect but that it is another option. The technique using of the two types of gun is different and you need to get used to it. That being said the design allows you to keep your arm further forward than with a rear handle making this less likely anyway. Two observations here, I suspect that if this was happening the position of the handle was too far forward for you. The other that there are times when I like to bring back the butt and rest it on my bicep, especially when hunting shallow water, it's a luxury I can't have with a rear handle.

It is also not practical to hold the handle with a reverse grip and pull the trigger with your thumb (which is very useful low viz and hole fishing technique)
Although I disagree this it a point of there being different techniques between the two styles. With there being a foot or so less gun out in front of you (length for length) and possibly therefore less need to bring the gun back so far. Realistically though it does happen and yes I do it but I don't have any problem using my thumb on the trigger.

I very rarely swing a gun round any distance. If a fish is more than a few feet from where the gun is pointing it is far better to bring the gun into your body, move it, then re-extend gun and arm. This is more awkward with a mid handle
I see where you are coming from, I too found this but like all things I quickly learnt to bring the butt in under my arm rather than into my body, it's just something you get used to like driving.


Mid handles are inherently more bulky than a rear handle, and need that extra mass to compensate for the handle pivot point being so far off the centre line.
True, this is the trade off for bringing the tip of your shaft a foot closer to you. There are advantages and disadvantages all round


This is not a problem if you are shooting a big thick shaft with multiple bands as you need the extra mass to control recoil anyway, but for the UK, there is never a need to use more than one rubber and a 6.5mm shaft, so you just dont need the bulk
There isn't actually a need for that much extra mass than a rear handled gun if you are talking about a single euroshaft and a single band. So agreed! Apart from my Wong my other three use a single 16mm band and a Rob Allen shaft and work very well.

I am not arguing that rear handle is better overall, just that there are reasons euro guns evolved the way they did. In my experience, shooting "small" fish is pretty similar all over the world, and Euroguns are perfectly adapted to do it
After 33 years of spearfishing and using a eurogun I would also say the same thing but here's the question: had there been a viable British gun manufacturer around back when the other European manufactures stopped making mid handles, would they have stopped too? After two seasons of using a Euro mid handle gun I think not, they have opened my eyes, not instantly admittedly, it took a bit of getting used to but I truly believe that it's a shame that we don't have the choice (unless we choose to build) and that if people gave then the time to learn how to use them there would be a demand for that choice.
 
hey up... I used my fathers old Nemrod mid hadled gun in years past and hated it. I found it hard to move, heavey and like Spearo Dave says, couldn't get it in holes as easy. I found it harder looking down the barrel with a mid handle as well. For me the handle at the end, for UK use, is the one for me. Might be different if I was blue water hunting after Tuna, the Riffe gun would be great for that I think.
 
You found the Nemrod hard to aim Clive??? That would have been the brass helmet getting in the way mate rofl Hang it on the wall mate :)
 
The only mid handled gun I've ever shot is the old jaguar air gun. As they fired a massively heavy shaft at about 5 miles an hour this is probably not relevant. However as I can't hit a barn door with my Mamba which although it is rear handled doesn't have a top mounted spear to sight along then I doubt I could use a middy either. Omer XXV Gold 90 is the sweetest gun I've ever used. Who said something about old dogs and new tricks.

Dave
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr. X and spaghetti
DeeperBlue.com - The Worlds Largest Community Dedicated To Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing

ABOUT US

ISSN 1469-865X | Copyright © 1996 - 2024 deeperblue.net limited.

DeeperBlue.com is the World's Largest Community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving, Ocean Advocacy and Diving Travel.

We've been dedicated to bringing you the freshest news, features and discussions from around the underwater world since 1996.

ADVERT