Underwater Breath Holding

[pembroke]

Man i'm chuffed at getting 30-40 sec's, 99% of my tiddlers were swimming to me on the surface, biggest i have got is 4lb silver grey mullet, seen and missed plenty bass of all sizes but i know my day will come, spearfishing god permitting lol

 

[Erik]

I guess I have to qualify here. I go where the fish are.

On west coast Canada, if you want Ling Cod at all, or Rockfish that are a decent size, you need to go deeper. If you want to go deeper, you need to breathe up, because you'll be down longer and use more juice getting there and back.

And having a good breatheup is not the same as hyperventilating. I never hyperventilate or distort the balance in my body. It's just that in 8 to 10C water you use shitloads of O2 and need time to recover. There's a vast difference between
8C and 15C in this regard. A 3 minute breathe up for a 1 or 2-minute dive is a good practical time to recover from the last dive. Terry Maas used to do 2 and 2's, and I suspect he sits a little longer at the surface these days. Less of a breatheup is not a good policy.

In the lakes I hunt in, most of the diving is in 5 to 10 metres and the water's warmer for the most part. Those dives are longer ie: 2:30.

There are guys I hunt with who are much better divers and hunters than me. My numbers aren't outrageous at all, and I posted them because someone's asking.

It's never about time or depth or bragging rights (except for size of the fish!). But you asked. Go where the fish are and be safe about it. If you have any concern or fear at all, then call the dive or make it shorter or shallower.
Cheers,
Erik

 

[igodeep]

I guess I have to qualify here. I go where the fish are.

On west coast Canada, if you want Ling Cod at all, or Rockfish that are a decent size, you need to go deeper. If you want to go deeper, you need to breathe up, because you'll be down longer and use more juice getting there and back.

And having a good breatheup is not the same as hyperventilating. I never hyperventilate or distort the balance in my body. It's just that in 8 to 10C water you use shitloads of O2 and need time to recover. There's a vast difference between
8C and 15C in this regard. A 3 minute breathe up for a 1 or 2-minute dive is a good practical time to recover from the last dive. Terry Maas used to do 2 and 2's, and I suspect he sits a little longer at the surface these days. Less of a breatheup is not a good policy.

In the lakes I hunt in, most of the diving is in 5 to 10 metres and the water's warmer for the most part. Those dives are longer ie: 2:30.

There are guys I hunt with who are much better divers and hunters than me. My numbers aren't outrageous at all, and I posted them because someone's asking.

It's never about time or depth or bragging rights (except for size of the fish!). But you asked. Go where the fish are and be safe about it. If you have any concern or fear at all, then call the dive or make it shorter or shallower.
Cheers,
Erik

i would have to agree, you are right about the cold differance, breath up, and its never about depth or time which we all forget sometimes, you have a great example and you must train hard and do it safe, it takes time never push yourself to hard but only at your own pace, and it doesnt matter if someone can do a little more, if your goals are to do the same just work a little harder. nice post erik.

 

[nz676]

more than 1min breath up is not hyperventilating...you can hyper ventilate in 1 min if you wish as well as 30 sec or 10 sec hyperventilating means to rapidly breath in and out.So as long as you use your head do a nice deep inhale slowwwwww exhale try to count to at least 10 seconds on your exhale your ok its not hyperventilating.a 2-4 min breath up is essential in canadian water as its cold and the bigger fish are deeper as erik said so you need to go deep therefore you need a longer recovery breath up.If you did a 30 m dive for 1.30 then a 1min breath up that would be a rather bad idea and i would highly advise against it.In canada big ling hang out at least past 70 feet halibut dont start till 80-100 so you kinda have to go deep just dive with a buddy of shared skill level.

 

[Robbo66]

more than 1min breath up is not hyperventilating...you can hyper ventilate in 1 min if you wish as well as 30 sec or 10 sec hyperventilating means to rapidly breath in and out.So as long as you use your head do a nice deep inhale slowwwwww exhale try to count to at least 10 seconds on your exhale your ok its not hyperventilating.a 2-4 min breath up is essential in canadian water as its cold and the bigger fish are deeper as erik said so you need to go deep therefore you need a longer recovery breath up.If you did a 30 m dive for 1.30 then a 1min breath up that would be a rather bad idea and i would highly advise against it.In canada big ling hang out at least past 70 feet halibut dont start till 80-100 so you kinda have to go deep just dive with a buddy of shared skill level.

Hi,

Realize 1 min breathe ups are not sufficient for deeper dives, just think it may not be advisable to recommend 3-4 min breathe ups in the manner it was posted. It could easily be misinterpreted, particularly when as I said, 99% do not dive to such depths in the UK. Plenty of people read these threads who are new to this.

Rob

 

[Erik]

It's bad enough when a nice fish shows up at the "end" of your dive, let alone trying to prove how far or deep we can go! I try to tell myself to go up no matter what, but sometimes you take that shot or follow just a little longer- which is dangerous. Usually I'm smart.

Freedive competition with support is one thing, hunting is another. Very easy to get focused on the hunt and forget ourselves.

Cheers,
Erik

 

[nz676]

Hi,

Realize 1 min breathe ups are not sufficient for deeper dives, just think it may not be advisable to recommend 3-4 min breathe ups in the manner it was posted. It could easily be misinterpreted, particularly when as I said, 99% do not dive to such depths in the UK. Plenty of people read these threads who are new to this.

Rob

i understand your concern completely,im saying that regardless if your not doing it right it doesnt matter how long you breath up your still hyperventilating.Therefore if you are doing a 1 min breath up improperly you still may be subjecting yourself to the possibiltly and raised chance of a SWB.So...... thats why i added in my statement that you should breath deep, exhale slow try to count to 10. Just in the off chance someone new is reading my statement therefore they can practice a good technique if they wish to try for deeper dives and like i also stated bring a good dive buddy safety first.But i fail to see just because someone posted they do a 3-4 minute breath up someone would just assume this means to hyperventilate?I just hope most people new to the forum take some formal training or have a more experianced buddy who can show them the ropes.

 

[Robbo66]

i understand your concern completely,im saying that regardless if your not doing it right it doesnt matter how long you breath up your still hyperventilating.Therefore if you are doing a 1 min breath up improperly you still may be subjecting yourself to the possibiltly and raised chance of a SWB.So...... thats why i added in my statement that you should breath deep, exhale slow try to count to 10. Just in the off chance someone new is reading my statement therefore they can practice a good technique if they wish to try for deeper dives and like i also stated bring a good dive buddy safety first.But i fail to see just because someone posted they do a 3-4 minute breath up someone would just assume this means to hyperventilate?I just hope most people new to the forum take some formal training or have a more experianced buddy who can show them the ropes.

Agreed, though it wasn't your post I was referring to as regards the 3-4 min breathe ups...
Many new don't take formal training and jump in and shoot everything and anything. There seems to be this huge emphasis on breath hold where as here in the UK, technique and knowledge of the tide/area will yield far more fish.

 

[dario_deli]

i understand your concern completely,im saying that regardless if your not doing it right it doesnt matter how long you breath up your still hyperventilating.Therefore if you are doing a 1 min breath up improperly you still may be subjecting yourself to the possibiltly and raised chance of a SWB.So...... thats why i added in my statement that you should breath deep, exhale slow try to count to 10. Just in the off chance someone new is reading my statement therefore they can practice a good technique if they wish to try for deeper dives and like i also stated bring a good dive buddy safety first.But i fail to see just because someone posted they do a 3-4 minute breath up someone would just assume this means to hyperventilate?I just hope most people new to the forum take some formal training or have a more experianced buddy who can show them the ropes.

I totally agree with this. It's totally possible to hyperventilate with 30 sec improper breathing and I feel sorry for this lack of information in the forum given by so called "experienced spearo" (who knows if they are).

And I add my opinion that the longer you prepare the dive - relaxed and slowly - the better it is no matter what the depth is. It all depends on your level of training. 1, 2, 3, 4 min, it is all very personal. I personally never dive more than a min and half ish also at 25-30 mt. And if I dive in UK I don't even get to 1 min probably. 10 mt can be many for somebody and it may require a good preparation on the surface, definitely over a min.

Thanks nz676!

 

[Robbo66]

Dario, great to hear from you and great to see we agree with NZ, as I have done right from the start. It was not his post I was referring to by the way.
None the less, great to see you're back on the forum following the 'events' of last season.

 

[andycornish]

I went on a freediving course to try and help my breath hold, and it was really useful it also showed the correct way to 'breathe up' and for it not to be hyperventilation. The main part was to breathe in then then when you breathe out make it take the double the amount of time it took to breathe in.

So if you breathe in for 4 seconds, exhale for 8 seconds this helps clear CO2 but is not hyperventilation. As for the amount of time for a breathe up it was less about how long you breathe up for and more was about when you felt ready, for me this was 4-5 breaths completely relaxed followed by one final breath which was big as you could manage.

The course (AIDI **) was invaluable for rescue skills and what to do it someone you are with blacks out or samba's, i would recommend it to anyone thinking of going to a depth more than 10m. It also means that i have started free diving as a sport now, but that was just a happy coincidence

 

[trux]

... this helps clear CO2 but is not hyperventilation

Sorry, but if a technique helps clearing CO2, then it definitely is hyperventilation. Reducing of CO2 level is the exact effect of hyperventilation we want to avoid.

 

[andycornish]

Sorry, after reading again and your post trux i realised what i had typed, what i meant was "It has the beneficial affect of relaxation of the body and mind helping to reduce the heart rate. This helps to reduce O2 consumption and CO2 production during both the breathe up and the dive, which is a safe way to reduce the urge to breathe." Sorry again !

Assuming everyone knows why hyperventilation is bad, just reading through notes from the course and came across a good explanation
"Hyperventilation does not store more O2, but lowers the level of CO2 in the blood,
This will delay the urge to breathe, until the CO2 will raise above its normal level,
This is dangerous: if you don't have the urge to breathe you will not know how far you can go"

Due to the body wanting the breathe when "the CO2 level in the blood increase past a certain level, and NOT when the O2 level is too low".

I apologise for the mistake, my revision tired brain does not function as well as a normal brain

 

[trux]

This will delay the urge to breathe, until the CO2 will raise above its normal level,
This is dangerous: if you don't have the urge to breathe you will not know how far you can go"

In fact this is not the worse effect of hyperventilation. Although it is very dangerous, experienced freedivers can learn not to rely on the urge to breath but rather recognizing hypoxic symptoms. Much worse effect of the hyperventilation, and unfortunately often omitted even during curses, is not the suppressed urge-to breath, but the reduced hypoxic tolerance. Low CO2 causes the shift of the Bohr saturation curve, hence making oxygen affinity to hemoglobin stronger (and more difficult to discharge to the tissue where needed), which results in a premature blackout.

 

[andycornish]

That's not something that was covered in the course, not heard of the Bohr saturation curve before, any websites good to read up on that ?
So it sounds like hyperventilation also reduces the amount of bottom time as well ! I cant believe they actually used to teach it as a breathe up technique !

 

[Erik]

I say let your body breathe the way it wants to. It knows what the balance is and will make you breathe accordingly.
If you're trying to change the balance for a goal, then purposely alter your breathing, with the understanding that there are consequences, good and/or bad.

Otherwise, trust your body.
warmly,
Erik

 

[trux]

That's not something that was covered in the course, not heard of the Bohr saturation curve before, any websites good to read up on that ?

Well, yes, there is indeed one excellent website to read about all this - it is called Deeper Blue. Just enter any term you are interested in, into the search box above, and you get enough reading to keep you busy for weeks. And in the Science section you will find very interesting threads about hyperventilation, and about many other aspects of freediving physiology. If it is not enough, I have some 600 documents about freediving physiology listed on my website too:

documents medical @ APNEA.cz

 

[cdavis]

Very interesting thread and a great overview of how what works is hugely different in different conditions. Great cautionary tale for those looking for specific numbers. As an example, I dive frc in warm water, 4+ minute breathe ups, repetitive two minute+ dives in 25 meters of calm water are no problem. If I used 4 sec in, 8 out, fairly full breaths, my head would be spinning in a minute or so, massive hyperventilation. That is about my breathing rate, but at about 1/5 or less of a full breath. In cold water, boy is it different. I've had the pleasure of diving freaking cold northern Vancouver with Erik and depth and bottom times are cut in half. Breathups are much more aggressive. I could hardly get rid of enough c02 no matter what I did.

Erik had it right, listen to your body and relax, it automatically adjusts to conditions. Get used to a relatively (for your conditions) low breathing rate and you can stay down a long time. One caution though, habit and apprehension can cause you to over-breathe in the water and not be aware of it. It helps to get an idea of just how minimal you breathe sitting on the couch and use that as a starting point.

Connor

 

[andycornish]

Thank you trux, certainly enough information there to answer any question i might have. From the sounds of it its best to keep free diving techniques to free diving, and keep spearing as i have before as Erik and cdavis have already written, to breathe normally. Like they said the body knows what it needs probably better than i think i know

 

[blueface]

Hi andycornish! This helped me to understand. Thanks again trux. I don't mean to derail the thread but I heard Bohr saturation curve.

http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-science/78976-some-iscience-swb.html