Very early and strong contractions.

[baiyoke]

Someone in my club, who I was buddying yesterday, started freediving 4 months ago and have problems in static: After 30 sec. he gets a huge crunching contraction, and another one 5 seconds later and so on.... At around 45 sec. he gets a strong urge to pee, and at 1 min. max. he bails out...

Sounds like a really strong diverespons is at work. Also probably because he is using nose-free mask, no noseclip.

In DYN he can do app. 50 m max. I think, normally doing a little less... He told me, that it helps him to swim for about 15. min. before, inhaling on every 5 or 7 stroke...

This guy has a resting pulse at 42 bpm, does a lot of running and can do 10km in 40 min. so he's in good shape.

Has anyone experienced the same, or know someone who has... How can he best progress past that bail-out point at around 45 sec. - 1min.?

 

[vali]

does he have those problems from the beginning of those freediving months?...or is just happened yesterday for the first time?
yesterday he did static after swiming a long distance and doing that 5-7 stroke >> inhale...
i don't know...perhaps he was just tired....
and...like Aharon said in one of his webinar...beeing in very good shape and running a lot, has almost nothing to do with apnea training....
i think that the main problem is that your buddy has very little tolerance at CO2...
and yet..perhaps i'm wrong, but contractions at 30 sec?
he must train his boddy with greate tolerance of CO2
i'm 1.70m / 98kg / 45 years old / pulse arround 95/min...i can't run even one km without falling apart
however i can do 2 min with no effort
if his problem is not some kind of a medical issue, then i think low tolerance with CO2 is....and [perhaps] some anxiety and lack of concentration...

 

[Rik]

In my experience, having a very good physical condition even increases the chance that you would have early contractions. Those divers often react much stronger to carbon dioxide increase. The advantage however, is that their "fight phase" is better, although that can be also their disadvantage since a lot of struggling is heavy on the mind.

I would propose a slow increase and adaptation. Use the A table (CO2). If he is able to adjust to the carbon dioxide levels, his condition would be to his advantage.

 

[Ms Mer]

That's very early contractions.
I had similar problems - not that early though, maybe around 1 min I got my first contractions. However the urge to pee (and pass wind!) I know all about! It was seriously affecting my breathhold and I was bailing early because of it. What was happening for me was that I would get the urge to pee/fart and I would try holding it. This only made my contractions worse.

2 things have dealt to it. Kathryn Nevatt suggested I try some dry exhales before getting in the pool before training, to get my body to respond quickly and evacuate what ever it needed to. This worked amazingly well! My body responded very quickly, such that I had a static PB after trying that it first time. She also suggested that doing the dry exhales regularly before getting wet would get my body into a pattern of realising that I was about to train. This has worked and I don't find I need to do some exhales every time before training - getting into the habit is good though.

I do about 5 dry exhales (increasing from about 25 seconds to over 1 min) about 45 mins before I get in the pool. I don't have to go hard out - just enough to get my body to respond. One could do it closer to starting training, but I have to allow time to drive to training and get changed and I prefer to do them at home where I am nice and relaxed, but have from time to time done them at the pool.

The other thing I have changed is that if I do get the urge to pee or pass wind during a hold, just let it happen! Just make sure you are wearing a full wetsuit and wash it out after. Don't hold on - the muscles involved in holding just tense up the diaphragm more, use more O2 and make it way more uncomfortable than it need be. Better out than in.

There is a big mental aspect, or there was for me.

 

[sai]

I also get my first contractions pretty early. Even after a few warmups it's pretty likely that my first contraction comes before 1:30 minutes, sometimes after 45 seconds in the first hold. I'm also in pretty good shape, not a marathon runner though...
What is really strange, that even hyperventilation doesn't seem to postpone the contractions much. I'm curious if that's also the case for your buddy?
So far the only thing I can do is to fight, but it's really limiting your capabilities in diving deep for example. You can get squeezed easily.
Sorry, I can't offer any solution here but I'll subscribe to this thread because I'm somehow in the same position.

 

[baiyoke]

Thanks for advice everybuddy. Yep, he needs to work on all the mentioned things...

Still hope someone with the same experience come along in time, or perhaps an instructor who have seen it before..

I'll ask him to see what happens after hyperventilation Sai...

Ms Mer I think the things you mention is a common effect of diverespons, but it's my impression that nobody discuss it... But for sure, it's a good thing to be well prepared before training, others I know of have similar strategies

 

[Ms Mer]

What sort of relaxation routine does he use when doing a static or dynamic? How does he mentally prepare and what's his breath up like? Perhaps it comes down to being too tense mentally? Can become a bit of a vicious circle - you anticipate the contractions and their unpleasantness, are "waiting" for them and sub consciously tensing, then when they do start, you tense even more. Perhaps observe his body in the water during static and note any signs of tension? Just a thought.

 

[baiyoke]

Good points. I haven't really got to know his diving rutines, I was just surprised seeing the huge crunching at the first contraction... I'll talk with him and see how things goes...

 

[baiyoke]

What is really strange, that even hyperventilation doesn't seem to postpone the contractions much. I'm curious if that's also the case for your buddy?

Sorry, I can't offer any solution here but I'll subscribe to this thread because I'm somehow in the same position.

Hey Sai.

I allmost forgot to report back in this thread. I haven't had him hyperventilate, and we haven't experimentet yet, but might do... I've pointed him in the direction of this thread, so maybe he can tell himself... but this is what he told me yesterday:

He can get those contraction FROM hyperventilation, and even from meditation... Meditation could highten the co2 levels I guess... But I can't get my head around why he would get it from hyperventilation...

If he figures something out I'l report back...

 

[growingupninja]

Dive response and contractions seem to be very intertwined, but there are no firm rules regarding actual level of hypoxia, for me at least. I just don't base any kind of calculation or training cycles on them... divers just seem to bond when talking about them.

Cold water facial immersion typically gives me gripping contractions within the first 30-45 seconds as well as a lot of measureable dive response. Dry static and warm water wet holds I may not experience them for minutes, and if I am relaxed enough they aren't bothersome in themselves. Dynamic work in a pool or dry they are relatively predictable and consistent, and it is actual, accumulated workload that influences them.

Urge to pee is normal strong dive response, a result of vasoconstriction. I read that somewhere. I get the same thing when diving in the ocean mostly but sometimes when training too.

 

[sai]

I'm wondering if there's any way to train the CO2 buffers in the body? When I do FRC statics my first contractions come so fast, it's just ridiculous... Seems like I'm just 20 seconds away from contractions the whole day. *rolleyes*

 

[growingupninja]

I'm wondering if there's any way to train the CO2 buffers in the body? When I do FRC statics my first contractions come so fast, it's just ridiculous... Seems like I'm just 20 seconds away from contractions the whole day. *rolleyes*

I am pretty sure that there are different triggers--high CO2 being one, as well as falling and low O2, and even just cold water induced dive response has caused strong contractions in me, long before I am low on O2 or have an elevated CO2. I kind of think contractions are just part of dive response kicking in much of the time in DYN as well. The only ones I have noticed that respond to training are CO2 induced contractions.

 

[Apneaddict]

My contractions in STA come way too early in a pool (1:30 - 1:45)... And they get pretty intense very quickly, often resulting in a bail at 2:30 - 3:00 and hyperventilation doesn't do much at all either.

It's weird because I can do CO2 tables at 2:45 with only :20 sec of breathing / purging before the last hold... But can only manage the same in water with a 5-min breathe-up and several reflex-inducing holds.

I've done over 5:30 dry and contractions start after 3:00... Sometimes as late 3:45.

I think I have a really strong dive response as well and will try to dull it before my next attempt.

No in-water warmup holds, no exhale holds, etc. Just CO2 tolerance 1-breath holds on land beforehand.

I also think I'll wear a hood and a full mask (with noseclip overtop).

I have trained and conditioned the DR well and I feel that it helps me tremendously in DYN and even depth... but it just results in massive contractions in STA that are unbearable.

We will see!

 

[sai]

Well dealing with contractions in depth is one thing. But you're also putting yourself in great danger of getting squeezed. That's what bugs me about the early onset of contractions in deep diving.
Oh I have to add another strange thing. When doing apnea walking I get a super strong DR as soon as the first contraction comes. My legs and arms get super cold, my pulse drops below resting HR within 5 seconds, I can barely hold my pee in and lactic acid is building up fast. Contrary I've never ever experienced any kind of DR in water. Any thoughts?

 

[baiyoke]

I think I have a really strong dive response as well and will try to dull it before my next attempt.

No in-water warmup holds, no exhale holds, etc. Just CO2 tolerance 1-breath holds on land beforehand.

I also think I'll wear a hood and a full mask (with noseclip overtop).

To my best knowledge I think you got it upside down in the middle sentence: In-water warmup, exhales and 1-breath probably all do the same, and that is it weakens the DR (among other things, since it might also prepare you otherwise, especially mentally)...

If you have experienced that you get a stronger DR from consecutive holds in water, and consecutive exhales, it would be very interesting however, because that would indicate that DR is something that can be warmed up... However most people I think falsely interpret a weaker DR, as a stronger DR on consecutive holds, because it gets easier and easier.

So if you want a weaker DR theoretically I would add wet holds and exhales also... However, in a case of very early strong contractions, a strategi of very easy and gradually more chalenging holds might be the best mental warmup, so I actually agree in your approach with dry 1-breath-holds CO2 conditioning, at least as the first warmup...

On a sidenote I don't really like the term warmup, since we neither warm up actually, and since DR is probably at it's most potentially powerfull state at the first hold... I do however believe (from purely subjective anecdotal experience) that slow gradual starting can place the body in a more apnea-ready state, especialy just being in water, weightless, calm... I don't know if it's just the relaxation, or the water/apnea related thing... However I've stopped believing it is DR getting "started" in general (allthough part of the response migth be slightly engaged; "relaxation").

Oh I have to add another strange thing. When doing apnea walking I get a super strong DR as soon as the first contraction comes. My legs and arms get super cold, my pulse drops below resting HR within 5 seconds, I can barely hold my pee in and lactic acid is building up fast. Contrary I've never ever experienced any kind of DR in water. Any thoughts?

Now this is really weird... That just doesn't add upp... So we're getting highly speculative here: The apneawalk thing supports the notion of a really strong DR in you, however that should be even stronger in water... My first thought was that being in water just triggers some kind of "alarm" in you, so that the body is more in panic mode than DR mode... Stress in itself can add very much to the following DR, but too much stress might do the opposite and the fight-or-flight system might be too active... But a bit speculative I'll admit... Are you very tense under water, and fairly relaxed doing apneawalk...?