warm ups or no warm ups before max dynamic attemps

[hteas]

Hey Mullins-
Any comments about your warm-up compared to Tony?

 

[Mullins]

I get into the water and relax for about 3-4 minutes

 

[Kars]

Indeed the term 'no warmup' can be rather confusing. For me in Freediving 'no warmup' is ment as in doing no breathhold warmups.

As for preparation I do recommend warming up and stretching the muscles involved. In a light way over and long time. I don't recommend breath holds because in my opinion those only affect the O2 and CO2 buffers, I much rather have those fresh for the max dive.

Tony your experiments are very interesting, keep posting them

What I also find is that the amount of force used makes a difference.
Rhythm too.

Titan's rest rest rest comment could be one for made for me - Usually as a mailman delivering mail 6 days a week with my bicycle as my main means of transportation I have a lot physical workout. I really notice the difference in tiredness and consequently performance in the beginning and the end of the week.

Well tomorrow another pool session with some static and dynamics, so I better turn in and give my body his needed rest.

Maybe someone here can explain me why it is my body have not much problems with lactic acidity, but my barrier is because my head get's little O2? Recently I figured that I'm maybe thinking and coordinating too much, and should stop worrying about having a reasonable technique while doing a max. Has anyone any suggestions?

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[titan]

well kars let me just say you have a pretty cool job althought it's not certainly the most well paid job you bike hours must give good lacti acid response for the legs
I suffer from the same disease and I'm not good enough to receive the acid honours

I recently for the first time I timed my dyn swims, I usually start the first 25m very slow when feel the blood shunt I speed up like ****, but I was suprised to see that I was 1min the first 25m the next 25 (moderate pace in my head) I was doing arround 40 sec then it was 20 to 30 sec?!?!?!!?I usually stop beacuse I hate contractions I was doing no warm up static I get overtrained all the time I did a 15 day rest less packing boom pb, I only did something like 5 max dyn so I can not give much detail but my guess is some people even having good static capability they adapt well to fast(bigger than 1m/s) dyn swim style

I recomend not using my numbers as a reference but rather the idea of it since I'm a dyn with a 25ºangle monofin no glide suit covered by body hair from head to toe = crapy glide I tried the kick and glide but I prefer a continuous smooth stroke

I also did some trys with my DR and mine is good 30 sec of static and I feel a good vasoconstriction don't know for dyn but looks like it starts behing 25m I think the idea that DR only starts after the 1st contraction is wrong

I'm going the red sea next week envy to you all (I know it looks weird since it is probably the first time I can make envy to anyone at DB except for the post of my triton, but no more in 2 week Ihope it's who is posting cool photos) finally I'm gonna dive in real place for the first time in my life goodbye montain and rain

 

[MikkoP]

As for preparation I do recommend warming up and stretching the muscles involved. In a light way over and long time.

Why exactly?

Many freedivers are warming up and stretching their muscles before max dives, but what is precisely the performance enhancing effect it is supposed to have?

 

[Kars]

Warmed up muscles have better bloodflow.
Warming gently, over a longer time helps to avoid exhausting and overloading the muscle (including the heart). To have them warm up extend completely down to every fibre.

I used to warm-up my muscles in an too aggressive way, tiring parts of my muscles while not have parts warmed up sufficiently. I costed more energy and yielded less results. So now I need to practice more patience and do a long light warm up. For that swimming in my triathlon suit in a slow pace works. I avoid apnea's during such warm up, or have only short ones, well below the feeling of any discomfort. I don't want to affect my buffers I want to use for the max, and want to retain the slow sleepy mood my body is in.

I got the idea from a friend practising triathlon who read the most extensive works on swimming and shares the experience that the long gentle warm ups are by far better over the short time ones.

I love to hear of your experiences.

 

[Arjen]

Warmed up muscles have better bloodflow.

Isn't that something freedivers just do not want?

Blood flow means oxygen going to my muscles. But I rather have my muscles working completely anoxic for those 3 to 5 minutes, so I can use the oxygen for my brain to make sure I do not black out. It is not that I'm going to do a long cardio workout, so if my legs collapse of lactic acid after 5 minutes, who cares. If that little bit of extra oxygen will be the difference between a white or a red card at a comp in doing a PB, I'll gladly suffer the burning muscles for a day or two.

(Not that I could do 3 to 5 minutes at the moment, but there are probably a few people out there who can.)

 

[Kars]

I presume apart form better bloodflow, that they would have better distribution and use of the substances involved in anaerobic performances to.

Also muscle is modelled as straw like tubes contracting and extending, rubbing against each other. Now I think is you use your muscle they contract moist and other fluids lubing themselves, reducing friction inside muscles.

But I'm not a docter, nor did I read extensive litrature, so maybe who has studied the subject can explain it better.

 

[azapa]

Looking at the present competition circuit, is all this no-warmup stuff applied to statics as well?

 

[MikkoP]

Isn't that something freedivers just do not want?

Exactly. I was thinking that as the often mentioned effects of warming up and stretching are increased blood flow to muscles and enhanced metabolism, it seems to me that there is not much sense in doing them before a max attempt, where you really want just the opposite.

The effects of mammalian diving reflex include decreased blood flow to muscles and at some level also reduced metabolism, so from this point of view stretching and warming up the muscles could increase the oxygen consumption during the dive by hindering the diving reflex, and thus reduce the performance?

Also the benefits of pre-performance stretching in other sports are quite controversial. Warming up is evidently useful in physical sports, but there are many studies suggesting that stretching doesn't help to prevent injuries or muscle soreness, and that it may actually be detrimental to athletic performance.

 

[trux]

Actually you do want to improve the blood flow to muscles prior the dive. You need to do it to replenish oxygen and energy stores in muscles, and to remove waste products like for example acid lactic. From this point of view, the best is passive stretching sufficiently soon before the performance, and then staying quiet, so that the blood flow has time to settle down, but that the muscles and myoglobin keep their oxygen and energy.

 

[titan]

I presume apart form better bloodflow, that they would have better distribution and use of the substances involved in anaerobic performances to.

Also muscle is modelled as straw like tubes contracting and extending, rubbing against each other. Now I think is you use your muscle they contract moist and other fluids lubing themselves, reducing friction inside muscles.

But I'm not a docter, nor did I read extensive litrature, so maybe who has studied the subject can explain it better.

Kars is right, vibration in the muscles means wastte of energy and more risk of injury (the last is almost impossible in dyn) by the way lactic acid thru days?!?!? one thing is training at gym and people say hoo it's acid acid one thing is latic acid that doesn't last long another microruptures inside the muscles the feelings are almost the same but the reasons are different

comon post your results here I want to see happy faces

 

[trux]

The use of stretching for injury prevention, as well as the impact of stretching on muscle efficiency is a rather controversial topic. Some studies show that stretching may be detrimental to both injury risk, and performance. There is a quite good info in Wikipedia with plenty of links. Although it is far to be conclusive, and it does not cover all aspects of stretching, you may want to have a look at it:
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretching[/ame]

...
Results of the study found both stretching experiments to reduce effectiveness of muscle strength endurance by up to thirty percent. They suggest that pre-exercise stretching induces a fatigue-like state in muscles which would clearly inhibit performance if the muscle is not at full potential.

Smaller amounts of research included state that stretching may cause ischemia in muscles, which reduces oxygen levels and the ability to remove metabolic waste. Higher levels of metabolic waste create a catalyst that contracts muscles. This may cause muscle injury in individual performance. Other theories included claim active static stretching increases inflow of Ca2+ from extra cellular spaces into the muscles being stretched. The increase of Ca2+ reduced the muscle twitch tension by up to sixty percent. Reasoning behind this claims that increased levels of Ca2+ in resting muscles predisposes individuals to fatigue quicker than individuals who did not stretch

 

[trux]

This study is also interesting: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a714024258&fulltext=713240928

Please note that those studies speak about stretching, which is not always equal to muscle warm-up. And also the resulting effect may be quite different at a freediver who swims in slow relaxed style, than at a sprinter needing the maximal efficiecy at the peek force output.

 

[MikkoP]

Actually you do want to improve the blood flow to muscles prior the dive. You need to do it to replenish oxygen and energy stores in muscles, and to remove waste products like for example acid lactic. From this point of view, the best is passive stretching sufficiently soon before the performance, and then staying quiet, so that the blood flow has time to settle down, but that the muscles and myoglobin keep their oxygen and energy.

Makes sense. But how much there are lactates to be removed from the muscle in its normal state, and how much extra oxygen and energy it is possible to store to the muscles by increased blood flow, compared to normal state?

Smaller amounts of research included state that stretching may cause ischemia in muscles, which reduces oxygen levels and the ability to remove metabolic waste.

Well, this is getting complicated. Does passive stretching itself really increase the blood flow, or is it just the warming up that does so?

I also found this statement, by our static-guru Jome, about stretching and statics:

I haven't found stretching before statics beneficial. After stretching, I do indeed feel more relaxed, but objectively judged, my times do not get any better, in fact they get significantly worse. As to why this is, I've no explanation.

 

[trux]

We cannot make conclusions from studies about sprinters. Stretching has several effects. And the results also depend on the intensity, timing, and duration of the stretching. Excessive stretching may induce muscle soreness, render them less efficient, deplete oxygen stores, and induce state similar to muscle fatigue. On the other hand, warming muscles up, gently stretching them, increasing the blood flow well before the performance, may help replenishing the oxygen stores, and reducing muscle tension, hence helping to better relaxation.

I think the final result depends on the way you do the warm up, and when you do it. It is well possible that no stretching or no muscle warm-up is better, but I think it would be premature to tell it directly without making intensive and objective testing. Perhaps it would be a good idea for a thesis work - someone in another thread asked for some topics, so this one may be indeed interesting.

 

[Narsil]

Interesting thread. I often do some light stretching before a static.

Lung stretches (reverse and packed) aside, I don't think that stretching enhances max STA performance, but it may cut down or delay some of the 'itch' factor that tends to build up through the middle period of a breath hold.

Guy

 

[Arjen]

Actually you do want to improve the blood flow to muscles prior the dive. You need to do it to replenish oxygen and energy stores in muscles, and to remove waste products like for example acid lactic.

Why do I have to replenish oxygen and remove waste products before my max attempt?

I'm going to do a max attempt, so logically I would have prepared with enough rest and proper food. I have also done as little as possible to get to the location of my max attempt so my muscles should be as oxygenated as possible, been fuelled to capacity and should have no waste products in them.

I think there is a possibility that stretching will have an averse effect, because you will use some of the fuel and create waste products. Also, if it opens the blood vessels to the muscles, it will be easier for them to consume oxygen and that is the last thing I want in a max attempt.

I do have to add that this is based on my feeling, just a little understanding of cell biology and layman logic. There is a distinct possibility I'm completely wrong on this.

 

[trux]

There is a lot of very interesting material about stretching available on the net, and likely even more in academic libraries. I just looked at it shortly, but there seem to be indeed a lot of information, and it looks like especially in the last few years the opinions are changing rather radically.

For example this book is not bad too: http://books.google.fr/books?id=5MTcORR6lvUC&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=muscle+stretching+efficiency+performance&source=bl&ots=39kAGnz0en&sig=SaNUMHXuEEhC-xtDfSzwrifQf-M&hl=en&ei=KH3wStqoG8KMjAfy6ogK&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CC8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=muscle%20stretching%20efficiency%20performance&f=false

They tell at measured subjects at weightlifting there was a loss of 28% strength immediately after stretching, and the strength loss persisted for more than 1h after stretch (9%). Muscle activation and EMG activity were significantly depressed after stretching, but were recovered by 15 min. Passive stiffness was recovered quickly at 15 min, but not recovered fully at 1h.

From this point of view it looks like passive stretching of muscles you do not plan to use, shortly prior the performance (< 15 min) could reduce their EMG stimulation, and hence improve relaxation. The question is though what other consequencies blood flow, chemical, and mechanical changes such short time prior breath-hold would have on the oxygen consumption.

Opposely to immediate effects, long time stretching prior workout was found to have positive effects on muscle strength and performance.

 

[trux]

Why do I have to replenish oxygen and remove waste products before my max attempt?

Because you want to have as much oxygen and as little of waste products as possible in your muscles during the max attempt.

I'm going to do a max attempt, so logically I would have prepared with enough rest and proper food. I have also done as little as possible to get to the location of my max attempt so my muscles should be as oxygenated as possible, been fuelled to capacity and should have no waste products in them.

That is rarely the case - you need to travel to the pool, you need to transport your equipment, you often need to walk stairs up and down, etc. So flushing the muscles with more blood without big physical effort (that's why I spoke about passive stretching), and then relaxing over a serious period may be a good idea.

I think there is a possibility that stretching will have an averse effect, because you will use some of the fuel and create waste products. Also, if it opens the blood vessels to the muscles, it will be easier for them to consume oxygen and that is the last thing I want in a max attempt.

That's correct, and that's why I did not recommend stretching shortly prior the performance. Well, except of the speculation about stretching unused muscles very shortly prior start - but I do not believe too much into it. I just mentioned it because it might be interesting for experimenting.

In any case, I'd more focus on muscles that won't really work, but where the enhanced flexibility may help to better streamlines and relaxation, or to easier taking and holding big breath. Contracted respiratory muscles can seriously reduce your maximal lung volume.