warm ups or no warm ups before max dynamic attemps

[chrismar]

Looking at the present competition circuit, is all this no-warmup stuff applied to statics as well?

Not as much. A few top athletes do no-warmup statics, but it's a much shorter list than with dynamics.

Personally, I find myself quite clear-headed when doing no warm-up statics compared to the same dive with a warm-up or breathe-up, but I find statics in general to be no fun at all. Not my game, thanks.

 

[Arjen]

You need to do it to replenish oxygen and energy stores in muscles, and to remove waste products like for example acid lactic.

Why do I have to replenish oxygen and remove waste products before my max attempt?

Because you want to have as much oxygen and as little of waste products as possible in your muscles during the max attempt.

I was trying to imply that there is nothing to oxygenate or replenish. When properly planned, everything is already in the optimum state. And if it is not, like you explained because of travel, luggage and stairs, which are reasonable arguments, is stretching going to actually help? Could you not reach the same effect by lying on a mat for 30 minutes listening to some chill out music. By doing that I would make sure that all the muscles are replenished (it is not that we have taken the stairs on top speed so only a little bit is needed), without opening pathways that I do not want opened.

Arguments that it might not beneficial could be that, in stead of replenishing, you use more energy that could have been used in the attempt, you open the blood vessels to your muscles, inviting them to use more oxygen and it is breach of the no warm up routine you would do if you were in the optimum state for a max attempt. Not having done any work, easy travel, etc.

In saying all this I realize with abandon how sh#t my training has gone these last few weeks. I have not been able to do a proper max attempt since Aarhus. :head

 

[Arjen]

Looking at the present competition circuit, is all this no-warmup stuff applied to statics as well?

I'm trying to change from warm up to no warm up. That has a lot to do with two black outs I have had with static that I did not feel coming at all. I already do no warm up dynamic and feel much more in control and can judge the moment I'm getting in the danger zone much better. I'm having some mixed success. Main thing is that in my case, contractions come sooner and harder compared to warm up, but they tend not to get as bad as the contractions that I do have when warming up. Main problem at the moment seems to be my brain. I think a full frontal lobotomy would increase my static times immensely at the moment.

 

[Bill]

"I think a full frontal lobotomy would increase my static times immensely at the moment."

Don't know about static times but it would sure help for constant ballast.

 

[trux]

I was trying to imply that there is nothing to oxygenate or replenish. When properly planned, everything is already in the optimum state. And if it is not, like you explained because of travel, luggage and stairs, which are reasonable arguments, is stretching going to actually help? Could you not reach the same effect by lying on a mat for 30 minutes listening to some chill out music. By doing that I would make sure that all the muscles are replenished (it is not that we have taken the stairs on top speed so only a little bit is needed), without opening pathways that I do not want opened.

Opening the pathways is not necessarily bad. They get closed later with the vasoconstriction anyway. You do not want to have them closed before it is needed - that could lead to accumulation of toxins and depleting stores even with very minor effort. You want to have the body and muscles saturated, hence open veins and high heart rate prior the performance assure removing waste and replenishing stores more efficiently. And it is not only about myoglobin, ATP, acid lactic, etc in muscles, but also about hemoglobin in venous blood.

Doing the stretching passively without muscle effort or even performed by your coach may help to avoid spending any of the needed stores.

That told, if you trust in one or other method, it will likely work for you well anyway. There are advantages and disadvantages on both sides, so finding the right balance rationally may be difficult. If your mind is ready for it, the brain will do the best to pull the maximum from it, optimize the balance, and prepare your body for the performance in the conditions you already visualized. On my mind this mental control is more important than the actual physical preparation.

 

[trux]

As for statics, myself I am really not a reference, but I switched to no-warm up for a simple reason - I can do the exactly same max time with both methods, but being aware that I will suffer only once is an idea much easier to diggest, than fighting contractions and getting cold during half a hour or more. So why should I do it, when it does not help me improving the time? I am a lazy person and if there is something I can avoid, I'd gladly skip it.

 

[Kars]

Hi Arjen,

A few weeks ago I did improve unexpectedly an 18 month old dynamic PB. After delivering mail on my job for 4,5 hours, and cycling for 10KM with bags, and a car ride we arrived at the pool. As a preparation I was the in water camera man filming my friends doing their pb's Wearing suit and my soft Mares Plana Avanti fins and snorkel I trailed them for say 6x50m. During my dynamic my goal was not to care about my technique but rather have one steady relaxed rhythm. My first 50m was very slow, my second was a faster, the last 39m were again a bit slower as I relaxed my legs too much and allowed them to bend. During the swim I had several times the temptation when feeling my technique was poor to focus on rationally controlling that, but I managed to refrain myself from doing that and continued with my mantra 'one rhythm'.
In other words I need to train myself not to be concerned about tuning my technique while doing a max. That really consumes so much energy.

Trux, thank you for your contributions here.
I think that a gentle warm up, without stretching works for me the best, at least after my usual day of physical work. But it's interesting to test those different approaches on myself and see what works for my particular body.

 

[azapa]

As for statics, myself I am really not a reference, but I switched to no-warm up for a simple reason - I can do the exactly same max time with both methods, but being aware that I will suffer only once is an idea much easier to diggest, than fighting contractions and getting cold during half a hour or more. So why should I do it, when it does not help me improving the time? I am a lazy person and if there is something I can avoid, I'd gladly skip it.

sorry to interject the whole static thing here, but i find it interesting, although I hate static i would like to get better. Last night i tried a no warm up static, laid on a mat at the side of the pool, breathed with diaphragm for 7 minutes, got in a did a max hold. As expected and read here, the contractions came early but i found them light. I reached 85% of my PB quite easily. I bailed more because of the novelty of the situation, and my safety was worried about same. I will keep trying.

 

[Goran Colak]

Oh worm up - no worm up, I'v been doing both each at his time, at my start of freediving 3 years ago, I was doing a lot of worm ups, 50m, 75m, 105m.. then max dive after 10min rest, and like that I did 190m at competition just 6month after my first training ever. But I stop to advanced soon after that, so I tried no worm up, and at the first no worm up dive ever I did my PB improvement of 20m.

So obviously I started to do no worm up diving after that, and it's working fine Now I started to breath less before my dive, I remove stretching at least 1h prior to my diving. My only worm up is 2 max packing 10min before max dive just to prepare my lungs for heavy packing...

The no worm up dynamics is harder at the beginning, lets say the first 60% of the dive, but after that becomes easier and you are always clean in your head. The worm up diving is opposite, it's easier for the first 60% of the dive.. but is all downfall after that...

 

[rvale1]

We cannot make conclusions from studies about sprinters. Stretching has several effects. And the results also depend on the intensity, timing, and duration of the stretching. Excessive stretching may induce muscle soreness, render them less efficient, deplete oxygen stores, and induce state similar to muscle fatigue. On the other hand, warming muscles up, gently stretching them, increasing the blood flow well before the performance, may help replenishing the oxygen stores, and reducing muscle tension, hence helping to better relaxation.

I think the final result depends on the way you do the warm up, and when you do it. It is well possible that no stretching or no muscle warm-up is better, but I think it would be premature to tell it directly without making intensive and objective testing. Perhaps it would be a good idea for a thesis work - someone in another thread asked for some topics, so this one may be indeed interesting.

It was me! Hello trux and all, I posted a while back regarding my undergraduate thesis (at university of chichester) asking for potential topics. funniliy enough i ended up on the topic on warm ups and their potential benefits/disadvantages... and now my thesis is on just that. I have been following this thread as I am looking at max dynamics as well, hopefully conducting my testing up in Richmond with some of the GB team. If anyone else is interested i am dying to get more participants!! so please just let me know!

I am coming up to starting to come up with my method and am looking for all your advice, as to the type of warm up to use. I would like to look at various warm ups but time restrictions may limit it to a warm up and no warm condition.

I am looking for what is deemed 'the most suitable warm up for max dynamics' as im trying to give both conditions the best chance at sucess (basically not favouring either technique).

Its great to see such indepth discussion about this topic - hitting all the points i am hoping to incorporate, basically any advice anyone can give would be greatly appreciated and id love to discuss things futher, and if anyone around the london area would be interested in getting involved it would be great to here from you! it puts my mind at ease that the forum is here beat around ideas when the going gets tough later down the line!

Hope to hear from you soon!

 

[laminar]

I'm not hitting distances like Goran or Dave yet, :martial but here's my two cents:

Some people need psychological preparation and perhaps feel that it has a physiological benefit (maybe, maybe not). I think that no warm up is best for most people, but it is not intuitive.

I've done no warm up dynamics since 2000.

I usually:

* jump in right at 45 minutes with only speedo on to cool down (i usually overheat in an indoor pool) and swim a few graceful feeling strokes and then get out and dry off. Feeling the water flow over me puts me in a amazingly positive frame of mind and helps dispel nerves.

* I may do some no prep statics on FRC (purely psychological, in my mind) about 10-15 minutes away from top to feel that contractions are familiar again.

* while standing in comp zone, I focus on the delicious feeling of swimming the first 50m with only gliding and streamlined sensations waiting for me. Again, I create a positive association. At Nationals (169m) I transported myself to a lakeside dock and imagined diving into cool green water and cooling off after a hot day. I was smiling when I started the swim.

* bare skin or speed suit is essential for making the swim enjoyable and the body responsive to apnea (although I am amazed at people who do long dynamics in full gear)

Pete

 

[titan]

you could open a poll so u could gather more data

 

[waxlips]

i had a dream i was dynamic apnea swimming in a flooded hometown street swam into a sewer drain i heard incredible dance music coming from there then these waterbreathing humanlike creatures walked up to me commented on how long i could do apnea and were touching me all over(probably to comfort my contractions or out of curiousity) it was one of my best freediving lucid dreams.

 

[Kars]

Maybe start a NEW thread about freediving dreams, it will be great fun!

 

[aris ioannidis]

I did 162m DNF in Aarhus in WC09 (which was a big improvement for me) with warm up: few dry statics and stretching at first, then in the pool for a 75m pace dive and a 50m really slow (c2.30min) dive and finally a 7-8min breath-up.

I started no warm ups about a month ago. I am in quite worse shape now and c6kg heavier. Had trouble in the no warm-up idea at first. Think it was in my head - warm up was essential in my previous competitive swimming. I did 131m easily and since then advanced gradually to 150m.

I think it works much better this way. I do a very light stretching, put the suit on and do a 6-7min breath up with deep, slow, full breaths.

I start each training session like this and then do various small sets focusing on technique and contraction tolerance. I am not sure if it is too much - to start every session with a no-warm up max. I am worried i may reach a psychological barrier as I will get to a point that it will be hard to improve.

What are your thoughts on that? How often should one do no warm-up max dives?

 

[aris ioannidis]

also i should add that i never did max dynamics in training in the past. Not sure why - maybe b/c i was trying to save my best for the competition.

On the other hand, I was doing max dives in Static in almost every session and it did help me improve a lot

 

[Kars]

In general I suggest a slow build down to a 'little apnea warm-up' preparation. Still I think it's very beneficial to have a muscle and movement warm up, and doing these only with very short apnea's, such as 25m + turn. The idea of a "No Warmup"approach is to retain all your buffers for the one big dive. But as you see I find the term not very precise.

How many max dives should one do? Well if you make sure you rest very well, and monitor your body and mind for fatigue. Tom Sietas used to do a max static everyday accept for Sunday, leading up to his 10'05" WR static.

Personally I'm not so structured in my training.

 

[Menny]

Very interesting thread!
I'm training 3-4 times a week dynamic apnea in the pool and never tried the no warm ups method before a max attempt, would love to give it a try.
Some divers in that thread had mentioned that they pack before a max dynamic attempt. Is there any article or a paper with instructions step by step how to pack correctly? Or is there any of you who can shortly explain how to do it? Though I tried couple of times I never succeed :head.
Thanks in advance,Menny.