Waterway footpockets - what remedy against the pain?

[Scorp]

Hi everybody!
Yesterday I got my first Monofin, a Waterway Model 1 LD, a fin I have chosen after long and meticulous considerations, in which many statements in this forum and also Bogdans (WW owner) advice helped me a lot.
I have 43-44 shoe size and chose the relative 43-44 (290mm) size for the footpocket (which is of middle stiffness).

I gave it the first try yesterday in the pool, and it happened what I was worried about (after having read the many experiences of many DB members concerning the first time open heel monofinning): the pain came after few strokes, and I had to put the fin off after 50m :head. Took a rest, tried again, same thing. After the 3rd "cycle" I gave up. My feet felt like in a bench vice. Very very disappointing! Since 2 month now I do a regular and intense monofin training with the finswimming club here, using just little rubberfins, and the first trial with a fin that should match my foot size ends up like that. :martial

This evening I tried again. Same thing, even worse. The pain came with the first downstroke. Strange, because in the very first moment when I put the fin on I felt that the footpockets fitted quite tight (what they should do) but not so tight to feel immediately uncomfortable. So what is the reason for this strong pain? I think I found it when I gave my feet some massage after taking the fin off again: The hurting points where the tendons of the middle toes, not squeezed skin or flesh (I had wrapped the toes with tape to avoid that).
Obviously what happens is that during the downstroke the rubber footpockets, mounted directly and linearly on the blade, bend down with the blade, and my toes, trapped inside, bend down too, to an extent they don't like at all.
In fact, I am aware that the tendons of my toes are slightly shorter then in other people, a fact that never really bothered me at all, but now this reduced flexibility could become a problem,at least with this kind of monofin.

So my questions:
1) Did anyone of you guys and girls who used or still use this type of open heel monofin experience the same toe flexibility problem (and a similar really demoralizing pain)?

2) If yes, did you overcome this problem after a short (or long??) time just by getting used to the fin and gaining the needed flexibility through regular swimming? In other words: can I hope that sooner or later this fin will be not just pain, but fun too for me? Clench my teeth and go through?
(Maybe I should think of some toe joint streching procedure, but then again :duh:duh,how far shall I go for this monofin thing ...)

3) Does the footpocket bend together with the blade also in the Andronov-type monofins or do these monos behave rather like the stereofins, where the sole is not subject to strong bending? The angle between blade and footpocket in these Andronov fins would anyway reduce the problem I guess. Could be a solution to sell the WW and go for such a mono ...

4) I thought also of loosening the heel strap a bit in order to get some freedome for the toes. On the other hand I dont like this option, because it probably wouldn't really solve the problem. Whats your opinion?

Every comment or suggestion would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers,
Ivo

 

[BennyB]

Hi Ivo,

My foot size is 43/44 and my first mono was a WW M1 LD/MD. From memory the footpockets were 310mm and they fit perfectly with a 1.5mm half sock. By fit perfectly, I mean that they would get sore after 20-30min and I would have to take them off. But this increased with time. The 290mm footpockets would naturally be tighter but I wouldn't think that it would cause the pain you're talking about.

When you kick, do you point your toes? I ask because I have a new fin and the left footpocket is smaller around the toes than the right. When I kick down, if I press down with my toes it applies too much pressure and feels like it's ripping my big toe nail off. I have noticed this is easing a bit as the rubber starts to mould a bit

Another thing - do you cut your toenails short? If I haven't cut mine they press back into my toe and cause some pain.

Andronov style footpockets have a different sort of pain than the old WW footpockets - Andronov tend to be a hugging all over type of pressure pain, whereas the old WW pockets tend to rub in a couple of spots, for me this was the base of the big toe and the outer side of the foot at the widest point.

Hope this helps,
Ben

 

[Scorp]

Hi Ben, thanks for your reply.
in fact I am pretty sure now that the pain in my feet is not caused by the footpocket being too tight. I didnt suffer any squeezing pain or ripping off skin or something like that, rather my first impression was that the footpockets fitted tight but well. Besides, they have a neopren inlay which protects the feet, and I used tape for my toes too. the toenails are always cut short. I tried different ways of moving (as far as possible) or keeping the toes during the stroke phase, but nothing helped: the pain in the tendons remained very strong. i still feel it from yesterday, and only there, on no other point.
So I guess this pain is only due to my relatively short toe tendons, which bend downward to much during the stroke in this kind of flexible footpocket glued on the blade without angle.

I just don't know if it is worth trying to get used to this, that means trying to get these damned toe tendons so flexible that I don't feel the pain anymore - or if this will ever happen, because maybe they will always be too short for the required streching.

So therefore I ask you for your experiences, maybe one of you had similar problems but can tell me that after lets say a couple of weeks his feet/toes adapted to the unusual position and all was fine. Or - other possibility - that he/she gave up trying and swiched to another fin, and all was fine then.

So, concerning the Andronov type, you mean that this kind of bending in the forefoot does not occur? Thats all I want to know. I already consider to get me such a fin. Prefer spending some aditional 200€ rather then suffering for weeks or even longer in my beautiful but for me not suitable WWs.

The question is: give it some more trials or just sell the WWs immediately?

Thanks and cheers,

Ivo

 

[Kaspermoth]

Dear Scorp,

I have experienced the same problems as you mention. I have a WW model 2, MD, 290mm. My feet are size 44, just on the border between WW size 290mm and 310mm but my wrist is very low, which makes the force applied to my toes and tendons big - since I don't get as much support to the wrist as others would, which again causes pain in the foot+ in toenails (even if they are cut, some nails have felt like they were going to fall off).

I have had the fin for 1½ years now, and uses it on a regular basis, so what is the status and what have I done/what can be done?

1) it is my impression that the tendons get stronger with practice so that you can use the fin for longer periods of time (at present, I do typically 20-25 min)

2) we, have fabricatted wood substitutes for our feet, to be inserted in the footpocktets when not in use. The "wooden feet" are made at a size so that they expand the footpockets, resulting in a slightly bigger and more comfortable pocket.

3) alternative, I have heard that your can get a kit, so that you can cut the heel (of your pockets) and extent it, to get a better fit.

 

[Scorp]

Hi Kaspermoth,

you bring up an interesting point, this "artificial expansion" of the footpockets by means of a wooden core.
I asked WW to mount a middle stiff pocket on my otherwise soft blade, because I thought that this would be better for the power transfer when kicking. Now i guess that this stiffer pocket causes me additional problems because the toes are trapped even tighter in it then they would be in a softer one. If I could stretch it right in the toe area it would be good. I will try that out, maybe heat the rubber first a bit and then fit the core in. Curious to see what the effect is.

I too considered to open the heel band and loosen it a bit, but am not really sure wether i get the expected relief by that or rather loose the good fit of the fin.

Thanks for your ideas,

Ivo

 

[Kaspermoth]

excactly, we also tried to heat gently with a hair dryer, but just to leave the wood in, for som days, might do the trick.

good luck

Kasper

 

[vali]

i had the same problem with regullar bifins...
my 86 cm genesis [seac sub] is relativelly hard and after a wile i had some foot pain....
i have my fins with neoprene socks because they are a little bit large [42-44]
I,ve somehow managed to get use to this pain...[is not so very painful, but a little bit teasing...]

 

[fflupo]

may your feet/muscles etc. wonna get used the footpocket first,
my experience after a few training session.. it gets better,
i use hair conditioner to get in and no socks

train hard
wolf

 

[SnuFPunK]

The first time I tried my fin, I came out of the water after 10 minutes crying!

:crutch

Couldnt belive I spent all that money and got all that pain!

Training made the pain go away, I can now wear the monofin for 1-1.5 hours at a time with neoprene socks.

~Snuf

 

[vali]

the same kind of pain is when you skate on ice....and the boots are to tight on foot....
training is the key....like snufpunk just said

 

[Scorp]

Hi again,
thanks for your encouraging words.
I am just back home from my training, which was the opposite: discouraging.

I didnt even manage to swim 25 m with the fin, not even a few normal strokes. If I wonna do the stroke, the pain in my toe tendons, more precisely the tendons of the 3 middle toes, gets too strong to finish the movement properly or do it with power.
I let some friends (no monofin swimmers) try the fin, and they enjoyed it for some laps. One has exactly the same foot size as I have, he noticed some pressure from the heel band, a bit of pressure on one toe maybe,but nothing dramatic. The same for the others. That is the "normal" pain I also expected when using a monofin, and its also the pain you guys are talking about I guess.

When I compared the foot anatomy of my friends feet to mine I saw that the position of their toes, in a relaxed state, is more or less in a line with the sole of foot. In my feet, the toes, when relaxed, show upward, in an angle of maybe about 20 or 25 degrees :crutch. This description may sound somehow ridiculous, but I think right therein lies the problem. No one of the guys who tried the fin had any pain in any toe tendon, just the kind of pain I said before.

In adition, I was able to try another monofin, same type as WW,but an old and used one and with very soft footpocket. I had the same problem,although my toes where not so tightly trapped.

So I am pretty sure that the pain I have using this fins is not a "normal" beginners pain but some anatomical incompatibility for this kind of fin/footpocket due to my foot shape (toe tendon shortness). If it where not, I could at least swim with it for 5 or 10 min before I had to take it off, as all of you say. But I cant even do 25m with normal,uncramped movement.

I am at a point where I say: I sell it. Definitely no fun. I will try an Andronov type one. And if that isn't working as well, I can always get a mono with omer footpockets.

Could get quite expensive, this story ... :head:head

Cheers,

Ivo

 

[SnuFPunK]

Scorp,
Sounds like the anatomy of your feet is to blame here after all.
Before getting an Adronov type (which is far more expensive then the M1 youve got) consider this.

The pressure applied on the feet in the cone shaped foot pockets is indeed applied from all sides and differently then in the M1 footpockets.
However it doesnt mean there will be no pressure applied on your toes while moving - there will be, it will only be different then the one applied with these open heal footpockets.
The reason I exit the water with an adronov fin is that my feet become sitff (like rocks) and finning hurts the joints of my toes (I usually end up swimming out of the water using my hands only and dragging my feet - I mostly practice in open water, not in pools).

Also, the inside of the cone shaped footpockets is designed with an angle for the toes like this:

(Blue line is footpocket, red line is your foot, circle is the joints of the toes)

Will this work well with the anatomy of your feet ?

My suggestion to you is to try before you buy, find an Adronov type monofin and try it out before you spend more money - or go for a mono with fin's footpockets .

I have a dear friend who has got one, she uses it for pool practices and is very pleased, Im planning to get one too for recreational freediving in the summer, when I want to stay in water for 3-6 hours at a time.

:t

~ Snuf.

 

[Scorp]

Hi Snuf,
thanks a lot for your detailed answer.

My choice for the Andronov type was, after I tried my WW,motivated first by Benny B s answer further up in this thread, who said that

Andronov style footpockets have a different sort of pain than the old WW footpockets - Andronov tend to be a hugging all over type of pressure pain, whereas the old WW pockets tend to rub in a couple of spots, for me this was the base of the big toe and the outer side of the foot at the widest point.

I interpreted this in my favor, also considering that this type of fin has an angle between blade and footpocket which should allow for less stretching in the ankle joint during the stroke and consequently also for less stretching of the toe tendons. More or less like my carbon binfins with omer pockets, which have a quite pronounced angle (and I feel comfortable with them).

Now you make me doubt again about that. Your schema of the Andronov footpockets doesnt seem to be a solution for my toe tendon problem.

What I wanted to do anyway is trying an Andronov type fin. In the finswimming club where I train the kids have many of them, i just hope that I find one of my foot size, but i guess I will. So, Friday I should know how this fin type works for me. Only afterwards I will decide wether to buy it or not.

Cheers,

Ivo

 

[Jon]

I'd say you have two choices.

First, you could do the foot, leg, stretches it takes to use that type of fin. It might take some time, but you'll probably end up with a better performance in the long run.

Second, buy yourself a comfort mono- which is what I did. :friday

I started with a WW #2 and it was a powerful fin, but I just couldn't wear it for more than 20 minutes at a time.:crutch Next, I switched to a Specialfins mono with omer pockets on it. This was a comfy fin that i could get 6mm socks on with- which helped for ice diving. The fin finally fell apart from too much use and I upgraded to their carbonfiber freediver model- made with my own Sporasub pockets. These new pockets made the fin more responsive, but I can only get a 3mm sock in it.


I have since purchased a NEMO fin, as is pictured above, and it is large enough for 5mm socks, BUT it doesn't have any angle to it, like my Specialfins. As a result, I don't get the same kind of performance out of it as I did with either of my Specialfin's. Since it cost less than half the price of my carbon mono I can't complain too much, but it will take some leg streatches to get it to do what i want.

I've never tried one of the Russian stlye monos, as I've spent plenty on this sport already and would like to TRY one before I buy it.

In the end you have to decide what you want to do with you fin. If I was only interested in competition I would have stuck with my first mono and left it at that. Since I like to wear my fin for hours on end and really enjoy the feeling of swimming with a mono on I went for the more comofortable, but less efficient, full foot monofin.

Just my $0.02

Jon

 

[Scorp]

Hi Jon,

thanks for your reply.
I think, the first choice you mention, the stretching thing,scares me off, I would really like to avoid that,particularly because I don't know what the result will be. Maybe i will not overcome this pain in my toe tendons even after a long period of stretching exercises. And as long as the fin hurts, NOT after only 20 min, but already after 1 or 2 or 5, all the monofin action will be just no fun for me. So if I can solve the problem by using a different gear I prefer that much more.

Thats choice 2: buy myself a comfortable mono.
I always wondered when reading through the different monofin threads here in DB, people distinguished sharpley and clearly between the comfortable, but only recreational monos with stereofin footpockets and the competition ones, uncomfortable, but very efficient: the Andronov type.
Is there really so much difference? Some of the top models of Specialfin for example have Omer footpockets - are they really just crap? Didnt Nitsch or Stepanek use them for some of their records? Or were they just posing with these fins for a nice publicity picture? What if Peter Pedersen would use such a fin (of appropriate stiffness) and do a max dynamic, would he loose just 5 or 25 or 50 meters compared to the same dive with his Andronov type fin?

What I want to say is that (now that my first choice WW fin seems not to be the right thing for me) my preference for the Andronov type comes from all the exstatic comments I read here about these fins, while the monofins with stereo footpockets are rather,how to say - not taken so seriously. I guess I would otherwise now go for these stereo footpockets mono, because i know how the footpockets feel and I am happy with my Omer footpockets.
But everyone who uses an Andronov type mono is enthusiastic, and since I would use the mono either just in the pool or for CW training on a rope, but stay with my carbon bifins when spearing or just diving around, I wouldnt care if I had to take the mono off after 20 or 30 min to give my feet a rest. So,why not give these silver bullet fins a try
At 1 condition obviously: I have to be able to keep them on for these damned 20 minutes!! :martial:martial

I hope I will find out when I try one. This time I will not buy a pig in a poke anymore.

Aside from all that i really wonder if and how the difference in efficiency between an Andronov type fin and a monofin with stereofin footpockets could be quantified, maybe in meters...

Cheers,

Ivo

 

[SnuFPunK]

Scorp,
I don't know how to measure the difference between the stereo mono and the andronov type...

What I can say, is that no mone I have ever tried felt so much like a true extention of my body as the andronov type fin (im using WW Glide MD) ... and its footpockets ARE much more comfortable then the ones used in the WW M1 mono - I just wanted you to be sure they will fit the anatomy of your your feet.

Anyway, as I said before, try before you buy.

~Snuf.

 

[Scorp]

I tried an Andronov type fin this evening (it was a Yakovlev Gipper, a great and extremley well elaborated fin), the footpocket was a bit large for me, but it fitted well enough to get an impression about how the fin works.
Well, I didnt feel ANY pain in my toe tendons !
The angle between blade and footpockets prevents the overstretching of the tendons, and the sole of the footpocket in the forefoot area fortunately, at least in this fin, is not shaped as designed above by SnuFPunk.

So I guess I will have to switch over to this kind of fin...

While cycling home from the pool I had the idea to just cut a little window out of the WW footpockets right in the area obove the toes, just like the one in all the bifins footpockets. Wondered if this could help me use my WW. But maybe it woudl just ruinate the fin, so better keep my hands off that.

Its a pity, I like this WW fin :waterwork

Ivo

 

[SnuFPunK]

Great to hear you have found a mono that works for you !



The footpocket description I gave is valid for the WW Glide fin, thats the one Ive got.