Weight training and free diving.

[mcspud]

Hi guys, new to this forum, keen freediver. Started about 3 years ago, just taught myself after getting sick of heavy scuba equipment. Ive never sought advice to improve until now, but I have a very specific question related to training for free diving.

As a precursor, I train the compounds heavy. (no body building crap). I'm wondering if anyone has any notion of the Olympic lifts with regard to free diving? I regularly train the power clean, and occasionally the squat clean. Split snatch when I'm bored. My theory is that working on hip extension through these lifts and the increase CNS and neuromuscular efficiency will translate directly to a better kick. Just chasing up experience here! Thanks in advance


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[efattah]

For freediving I recommend dead lifts, squats, bench, chin ups, dips, and ab work.

I don't usually recommend high-risk exercises but if you know what you are doing, they can be of great benefit.

EDIT: DO NOT do dead lifts or squats without a professional trainer! You could easily injure yourself forever.

 

[mcspud]

Hey Eric, really good that you responded to this.

As I said in my post, I train the compounds. Heavy squats, deadlifts, bench, overhead press, chins, dips. Have for a few years. I use the power clean as a warmup for my deadlifts actually. People severely underestimate how much better life is the stronger you are; conversely, long slow cardio is pretty bad for you and won't really do much!

Question specific: have you noticed the O lifts having any noticeable carry over to your diving?

Regards,
Jamie.


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[Mullins]

If you're just aiming to get better at freediving then I wouldn't recommend bothering with weight training. Better to use the time and energy for something more specific, like pool or depth work. If you're doing it for other reasons then it's probably ok and won't hinder your freediving in a big way - except the fatigue might affect your freedive training a bit.

For a few divers right at the top, who lose heaps of muscle mass because of all the max dives and the resulting acidosis; or for people who want to correct a muscular imbalance that is screwing up their technique, it can be useful. But it's a really peripheral thing to be spending lots of time on and is definitely not an essential component.

 

[titan]

mullins could you explain why acidoses result in a loss of mucle.
thank you

 

[Apneaddict]

Has acidosis been shown to cause the top guys who are in heavy training to lose significant muscle mass? I've never heard of that.

Pipin always carried some muscle mass on him.

 

[Mullins]

As I understand it, low pH can result in protein catabolism - which is compounded by the fact that freedivers 1. tend not to eat before dives and 2. exhaust glycogen stores on big dives.

Apneaddict - no studies will have been done on freedivers, for obvious reasons. But some divers do find they lose weight when training hard. I've lost about 10kg in the last few years of freediving and that's mainly muscle. I don't know what Pipin's training was like but being primarily a NLT guy I'm not sure he would have been training like today's depth/pool specialists do. Plus an effect like that probably wouldn't override genetic disposition.

 

[Apneaddict]

Very interesting. I used to be extremely muscular and was lifting some serious weight about 7-8 yrs ago. I have since maintained my strength with less frequent workouts.

I got into freediving a year ago and have changed my training fairly significantly. I am only in the gym once every 2 weeks, but am maintaining my strength and muscle mass with heavy workouts. In fact, my strength is increasing.

I am losing bodyfat (about 15 lbs so far) and try to eat an alkaline diet. I always down a protein drink with some simple carbs after a freediving workout to stop any catabolism that is taking place from the activity, as well as the mini-fast ahead of time.

I think the protein drink is key to halting this process. I have one first thing in the AM for the same reason and have done so for over 15 yrs.

We will see how my body continues to change, as I get "deeper" into this sport.

 

[efattah]

I think that compound free weights are very useful even to a high level diver. Having said that I would do them mostly in the early (foundational) training phase, and decrease them to one session per week in the transition phase and eliminate them in the final 6 weeks of the competition phase.

 

[mcspud]

Mullins, you're putting way too much emphasis on the effect that one day of diving will have on your body!

A lot of people seemingly fail to realize that lifting stuff is essentially a permanent architectural change in your physiology. I'm not talking about doing hamstring curls, but heavy squats, deadlifts, bench presses etc induce physiological adaptations that never really go away. Strength is more than the size of the contractile fibers in your muscle bellies: tendons, ligaments, bone and nerves all adapt to.

Muscle belly size is the most transient of the adaptions, but also the easiest to bring back. On the other hand, bone tendon and nerves never detrain to any real extent. As an example 7 months ago I had a coma and lost just over 21kg of muscle. 3 months of training later and I'm just fractionally off my previous numbers. Anyone who has trained heavy can resume the strength it took years to build in a very short time.

To Eric specifically: I'm not competitive. This is the start of my 3rd season free diving. I didn't know about O2 tables and the like until yesterday. In 2 seasons my max time for a dive (dynamic I guess?) was just under 2 minutes. My max depth has been 29m (couldn't equalise any further!). All I've used have been a pair of Cressi Gara Pro's. Looking at some other stuff on these forums I'm pretty average hah. Do you specifically have any experience with the O lifts and their diving effect?

Age: 23
Height: 6'1
Weight: 95kg
BF: 11%

Thanks again!



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[Mullins]

Mullins, you're putting way too much emphasis on the effect that one day of diving will have on your body!

mcspud... what on earth are you talking about? You don't become an elite freediver by doing a single day of training. Most do 5+ sessions per week, most of which involve severe hypoxia and corresponding acidosis. They do that for years. You probably haven't experienced the effects of a heavy apnea session (beginners usually aren't able to run themselves very far into O2 debt without blacking out) but they really do knock you around.

At your level it's all about breathhold training. Compared to time spent in the water doing apnea work, land-based resistance training will have negligible effect. But don't worry too much about it harming freediving performance either.

 

[Broseidon]

In my experience, which I would say that when it comes to weights, is quite a lot - I can say that any heavy, low rep weightlifting (and I mean heavy) would be nothing but detrimental to any form of apnea.

Heavy training forces your muscles to become powerful but utterly inefficient, which is the opposite of what you want for apnea - have you ever seen a powerlifter going for a run...? I thought not

mcspud, when you say you train the compounds heavy, what kind of numbers and reps are you talking?

I've lifted heavy for years and found it utterly useless for life - there really is very little point in being really strong apart from to stroke one's ego.

I would also say that training Olympic lifts is an complete waste of time - you probably wont have good technique all you are likely to do is injure yourself. A powerful hip drive will be much more easily achieved via a good deadlift. Although, it does beg the question, why on earth would you want an extremely powerful hip drive as a free diver...

 

[Apneaddict]

Well, when a 180 lb man can bench press more than 2x his bodyweight... I'd say that it takes a LOT of efficiency and the firing of multiple muscle groups at once.

It also allows for much better mind / body awareness, when you can feel every fibre firing. This is important when working on technique and hydrodynamics.

Having said that... I did all of my BIG compounds and Olympic lifts in my late teens - mid 20's. I still reap the benefits today. Very easy to maintain.

I only lift heavy every 2 weeks to keep my strength up. Being massive or perpetually sore is not an asset in freediving.

The 4 elements of "fitness" are:
- cardiovascular
- flexibility
- muscular endurance
- muscular strength

I get the first 3 from freediving. I have to go to the gym to maintain the 4th. It really comes in handy in UWH, UWR and I believe it can assist in Freediving.

More muscle mass can mean more available blood stores and weight training does increase lactic acid tolerance (muscular endurance).

The key is to be able to relax them and not generate too much CO2 with them firing too much.

Due to my strength (core, legs, etc) I tend to swim fast. This makes hydrodynamics even more important. It doesn't help that I have broad shoulders that are trying to pierce a larger hole through the water.

Pipin reportedly did apnea weight training.

 

[mcspud]

Eh this thread had gone way off topic. But yeah, powerful hip drive is probably not that useful. Thanks!

@broseidon
As of this week:
Squat: 177.5kg x 5
Deadlift: 202.5kg x3
OHP: 85kg x 6
Bench Press: 112.5 x 5
Power Clean: 110kg x 5 x 3

Squat dead bench are all to comp rules, if you believe me or not different story haha. At this stage I'm generally 'athletic' enough to not really want to get any stronger, much more and it'll take a big powerlifter bloat diet and training my 1RM's.





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[GreekDiver]

I am not an expert diver, but I found lifting weights helped my dive times. You just feel so good when you lift weights 4-5 days a week for 2 month + period of time. Obviously, I would not workout 3 days before diving.

 

[Broseidon]

Eh this thread had gone way off topic. But yeah, powerful hip drive is probably not that useful. Thanks!

@broseidon
As of this week:
Squat: 177.5kg x 5
Deadlift: 202.5kg x3
OHP: 85kg x 6
Bench Press: 112.5 x 5
Power Clean: 110kg x 5 x 3

Squat dead bench are all to comp rules, if you believe me or not different story haha. At this stage I'm generally 'athletic' enough to not really want to get any stronger, much more and it'll take a big powerlifter bloat diet and training my 1RM's.

Nothing unbelieveable there - all good solid lifts but really, sets of 5's and 3's are going to do nothing but spoil you apnea activities.

I've only just started training again after taking the whole summer off but I tend to stick to higher rep ranges - in the 10-14 rep range: I feel better for it!

Earily this year I did 155 x 20 dead, 140 x 20 squat and 100 x 20 bench as my PB's for 20 rep sets @ 5,9", 86kg, 10% bf

I'm a lot healthier, fitter and supple then when I was chasing the 1 rep max and focusing on low rep sets.

 

[mcspud]

I gotta be honest dude, the thought of a 14 rep squat set makes me feel sick


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[Andrew the fish]

broseidon - good info, thax.

Couple years back when I just started freediving again, I did pretty good, compared to my best times when I was in my early 20's. I attribute it to bigger muscle mass I have now. I am 200lbs and can move some serious weights, So, whenever somebody is saying weightlifting has no benefit for freediving - I think different.

But then I have a feeling there is more to it. Not only the mass as such but also the "recency" of your taraining has probably good effect on breath holds. I have no way of backing my statements with anything, just my subjective feeling.

 

[Simos]

Just my thoughts: like in all sports, weight training does have its place in freediving. When and how much really depends on your body and what you are training for.

For myself, if I wanted to compete and do any decent numbers, it's clear to me that I would need more core strength for example to drive a monofin properly. I would do some weights to speed up the strength building before more specific apnea work.

For yourself, it does sound like you are already at a pretty good level with weight lifting so I doubt more strength/muscle is what you need. As Mullins said, if you just want to progress in freediving you'll benefit more from specific freediving training at this point + maybe the odd weights session to maintain your strength.

Like weight training, in freediving you also need to train you muscles to fire off in a specific sequence and you might even have to 'undo' some of the ways they've learned to fire so far to be more efficient, so specific freediving training will help.

I see the same in other sports too eg if you have someone really strong from weight lifting trying climbing for the first time. Sure they are strong but the way some muscle groups have been taught to work together doesn't always help and hence beginners look very 'stiff' when climbing.

 

[bobdonny]

- have you ever seen a powerlifter going for a run...? I thought not

I've not much to add, I'm very much a novice here... but any form of exercise should surely be of benefit to freediving and better than sitting on your ass on the couch. As said, when you get to the elite in freediving or even elite in bodybuilding or other sport... then the dynamics really start to change and negatively or positively affect performance.
At a novice to intermediate level, go for it and if you see a problem stop... simples...

(edit: one of the funnier comments to this vid on youtube wa " I feel a little gay now..." )