What is a good Kelp Rig?

[Bill McIntyre]

I often use my 11 litre RA float in very dense weed (esp. when the tide is low) & have not had any problems with it -- perhaps because it is hard, shiney & stream-line (no rings, straps, etc.). It has balast but sits quite high in the water. Moving steadily seems to be key -- give the weed the opportunity to move with you. The float line tangling with itself is more of an issue (not a biggie though) -- thicker lines, like the foam filled RA floatline, would prob. tangle less.

It sounds like we are still not quite on the same page. Could you pull your 11 liter float under water with you on a dive? If not, it wouldn't work in our kelp. We dive, go under a lot of kelp with stalks at thick as your wrist, and then come up on the other side. The float line follows us, so we would have to pull that float down to maybe 50 feet or whatever depth we dove, drag it under all those kelp stalks, and then up on the other side.

Even if the float had no buoyancy at all, it would be hanging up on the kelp, but the buoyancy makes it a nightmare. Next time you are diving, grab your float line about 5 feet below the float and try to dive with it behind you. If you succeed in getting it very far under water, then imagine some horizontal steel cables and think about swimming under them with the float behind you. Then you will see why floats won't work diving in our kelp.

 

[Mr. X]

...We dive, go under a lot of kelp with stalks at thick as your wrist, and then come up on the other side. The float line follows us, so we would have to pull that float down to maybe 50 feet or whatever depth we dove, drag it under all those kelp stalks, and then up on the other side.

Ah...I see - thanks for the clarification. No, you won't pull an 11 litre float down(!) -- the idea is to have enough float line to get where you need to be [I believe they often use 2x11 litre RA floats to keep big pelagics up].

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Ah...I see - thanks for the clarification. No, you won't pull an 11 litre float down(!) -- the idea is to have enough float line to get where you need to be [I believe they often use 2x11 litre RA floats to keep big pelagics up].

We do use floats out in open water, just not in the kelp.

I notice that the email notification of your reply contained some other sentences that were edited out by the time I got back to the site, so I hope you don't mind if I address them anyway.

Yes egg floats can also hang up a bit too, but its usually just a minor nuisance. You start to feel resistance, and then it almost always just pulls free of the kelp. The main reason I use one (when I use a float line at all) is to have something to grab when all the line is pulled through my hand. I recall one time shooting a fish at about 25 feet and heading for the surface with the line running through my hand. I had no idea so much line had gone out, but just as I hit the surface the end of the line came though my hand and I barely grabbed it in time to get pulled across the surface about 10 feet before the fish hung up in the kelp. Without that egg float, I'm afraid the line would have just slipped through my hand and the fish would have kept going with my shaft, slip tip, and float line.

The floats on the left two photos with my earlier post show floats that are ideal in that they are streamlined and don't hang up much, but still give you something to hang on to.

So yes, a lot of us use reels in the kelp because its generally easier than dealing with a float line, although both systems have their ardent devotees. In my second post to this thread, I show a photo of my gun with the reel I'm using.

 

[Mr. X]

Thanks for that :wave. I removed some text after re-reading the thread and realising that you had pretty much covered my questions.

I have my egg-float, some washers, para-chord and a scarab clip with me now, looking at your float pictures for rigging ideas. I built myself a couple of "flashers" this evening -- like scaled down versions of the Rob Allen ones (which are huge -- the catalog does not do them justice, they are works of art). Mine are much cruder, simpler and smaller - made from spare fishing gear (swivels, line, squid "muppet" lures) & some cut up old CDs. I am thinking having the egg float do double duty as my flasher float & kelp float -- although I also have a round lobster-pot buoy which is 3 or 4x larger (also beach salvage).

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I've never tried flashers because I'm a pessimist and am afraid that my fish would tangle up in the flasher and I'd have a hopeless mess, but I know that they are very popular with some blue water divers.

I wouldn't dare use one in the kelp, for the same reasons I wouldn't use a float.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I've become obsessed with trying to show how thick the kelp is in Calfornia so those from elsewhere can get an idea how hard it is to drag a float through it, so I looked through some photos taken this last summer. Here is one of my dive buddies with a fish that is not very spectacular, but I hope that you can see the kelp bed in the background after I shrink the photo enough to post it. The photo was taken at San Clemente Island, which is about 50 nautical miles offshore. When the kelp is that thick on the surface, it can be hard for a diver to even get up and down through it.

 

[dave]

I am thinking having the egg float do double duty as my flasher float & kelp float -- ).

Why do you need a kelp float in the UK? The kelp is only 4ft long at most and attached to the bottom. it is also completely different in structure to California kelp and doesnt generaly tangle around things. Anywhere that your float is actually in contact with the kelp you would be better off anchoring it and swimming free. You are not going to get hit by a boat in 3ft of water, and UK fish do not need float rigs to land them! always keep things as simple as possible :hmm
cheers
dave
www.spearo.co.uk

 

[Mr. X]

With winter setting in and Christmas upon us, I am just getting my gear ready for next season, experimenting & making a few things. I have managed to spear every month since starting in August, including December -- & I am hoping to continue into Jan & Feb (it has now become a goal to spear every month of the year -- although that might look like a less attractive proposition next month!).

I picked up the egg float on the beach, so I thought I might as well rig it up so that it is available if needed. You are right, I have not found a need for a Kelp float yet -- and sounds like I am unlikely to in this country (knew there must be some advantages to spearing in the UK ) -- is the same true all around the UK (e.g. I visit Yorkshire periodically, Wales occasionally, Scotland rarely & maybe Ireland one day)? I hope to spear abroad at some point -- so maybe it will get some use one day! Agreed though, simplicity has much to recommend it.

Re. flashers, from what little I have heard, they do not pull in Bass in the UK . Also, decent visibility is essential (for my flashers) -- and fairly uncommon in the UK . I believe the RA flashers also vibrate -- even so I think they are intended mainly for blue water conditions.

 

[whitebait]

Bill, I dont know if you are still posting on this thread, but i am very interested in what you do with your fish. I dive in verry similar Bull kelp here off the Kaikora Coast NZ. I like the Idea of the float line u described and am probably rigging one as you read this. What I would like to know is: Do you keep fish with you, use a second float secured somewhere or rely on the boat if you have a boatman. Im still personally searching for the "perfect" solution.

James

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I don't take many fish, but the ones I take are too large to attach to me and continue diving, so I always take them back to the boat.

I suppose its possible to keep diving in the kelp with something like a 30 pound fish on a belt stringer, but I'm not comfortable doing it, and there is always the possibility that a big bull sea lion might grab it.

I realize that this doesn't offer much in the way of useful advice for someone not cursed with a boat, but since I've been diving in Calirornia I haven't done much beach diving, and when I have done it, I've been after white sea bass and have been happy to settle for one fish.

 

[whitebait]

Cheers Bill. The majority of table fish that live in the kelp over here are all relatively small and would be doing well to reach 10lb, more typiclly 3-6lb, so ive got to string a few up for a feed. Ill keep trialing rigs, somethings got to work.

James

 

[miles]

Hiya

Whitebait, you could also modify that idea slightly.

Try using a speed string with a one way spike further up the line.

We have a simple peice of ss rod with an eye welded on each end.(See Pic) To the one end you attached your floatline, by using either a knot or a small snap clip. Your gun has a meter length of rope attached to the rear and a tuna clip. This snap clip is now attached to the other end of your ss rod.

Effectively, you now have your gun........1m of rope terminating in a tuna clip.......which is attached to the one end of the ss rod.........the other end of the ss rod has your floatline and float.

How this works:
You shoot your fish. The unclip the GUN from the speed spike. Now you push the speed spike through the fish's gill's so that it exits the mouth of the fish. Then re-clip the gun and remove your spear. As you swim away, the water will automatically push the fish back up to the float!!! VERY fast and easy!! Might even work for the scuba spearo's, where they can have a long floatline and the boat can just empty the catch every 10minutes!!

The second picture shows the tuna clip very near to the gun. I prefer a meter peice of line as it then doesn't bother you when you track fast moving fish.

With regards to the fish sliding down the line, well, we've even thought of that too!!! Check out the attachment(pic3): called a one -way fish stringer. Made from heavy gauge plastic coated stainless steel cable. The one way stringer is used in conjunction with the speed stringer when threading your catch up your float line. Positioned between your floatline and buoy the stringer's purpose is to prevent your fish from sliding back down your float line and to protect your floatline from wear and cutting on fish teeth.

 

[portinfer]

Mr X I would tend to agree with Dave on this one. Keep it simple. I have been able to catch fish over here with just a reel on the gun. You could probably push that to a gun with a double wrap. I take a float sometimes but have a 20m line on it and an old sash window weight - I drop this when I am fishing in murky water so you have a nice line to head down (seem to get sick in really murky water from coordination problems...) Also good for safety in boaty areas and also good if fishing in swell with buddies.

Anyway, I wouldn't use a float line and know of noone over here who does. Some use it in Jersey but complain that sometimes the swell will knock the gun about a bit.

An 11 litre float for fish in the UK is a bit much maybe - what is the largest fish you have caught ? The largest I have heard caught is an 18 pound bass on rod and line and a 12 pound bass by spearing. Most fish I have seen caught are around the 3 pound to 8 pound mark.

Forgive me for stepping on your toes and I agree that it is fun to collect and make things .. but I would ditch all the fancy clobber that you take into the sea and concentrate on other skills.

One use for an egg float would be for flatfishing - rig an old spear with a bit of line - maybe 3 or 4m and an egg float on the end. Flatfishing is repetitious shallow diving so having a prodding shaft rigged like this is quite streamlined. When you prod a flattie look for the head and check it's size then skewer it behind the head and thread - maybe incorporate a one-way catch on the line too or just put a bend in the shaft at the top.

Hope that helps - sorry if I p*ssed on your fireworks
Ed

 

[Mr. X]

Hi Portinfer, I hope you had a good Christmas. Have you managed to dive these last few weeks?

re. reels, I was interested to hear that you are using a reel -- most feedback I got when starting out was that they are not much used in the UK (although I have since read of at least 3 people using them in the UK on this forum). When you say nobody uses a float line over there -- are you saying the Guernsey spearos all use reels? I have not been particularly attracted to the idea of using a reel so far ... not sure why, perhaps concern about tangles(?). I haven't seen anyone using them here either (other than the odd photo on the forum). What do you put on the reel -- parachute cord or regular fishing line? Something to think about next year.

The float is primarily for boat safety (but also gun attachment point & emergency buoyancy -- although with a full wetsuit no longer such an issue). I have encountered boats from the beginning, & have done on about 60-70% of dives. It works well for that. I have been threatened with a trip to Hyannis Port (Cape Code area), USA sometime next year -- I understand they have some sizeable fish.

I don't use a float anchor or weight currently. It doesn't seem to make sense at the moment -- as I am usually exploring/scanning new bays searching for fish, etc. (covering maybe a mile or so), rather than hanging around one or two well known "target rich" spots. Also, I prefer to keep my gear strung together at the moment, so I only have one thing to keep track of.

Living relatively far from the sea, I get a lot of time to experiment with ideas & equipment between actual dives; you'll have to forgive me some of my more extravagent ideas. I like the flattie rig idea -- I don't have any old spears but I do have a crab hook that has a flattie spike at the opposite end. I have only seen one small flattie so far though (and that was in Cornwall) -- and it was more like a glimpse than a good look. Not enough to justify carrying special equipment unfortunately.

BTW I like the rig & system Miles describes shown above -- although I think Miles is a reel man too.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

re. reels, I was interested to hear that you are using a reel -- most feedback I got when starting out was that they are not much used in the UK (although I have since read of at least 3 people using them in the UK on this forum). .

This is just a guess, but I'm thinking that one reason for the relative unpopularity of reels in the UK might be related to the predominance of small Euro type guns. I say that simply because some of my friends here in California who have used that sort of gun have had problems with the gun sinking even with a small reel attached.

I'm a big reel fan, but as you can see in the photo I posted earlier in this thread, I use guns that have a big chunk of wood to allow for the weight of a reel.

 

[miles]

Hiya

I've got a small Omer Pelagic 30 reel fitted to my 90cm Rabitech Carbon, and the gun floats with the reel attached and spear dis-charged.

I think the main reason people don't use reels often is becuase its very easy to lose your gun and most places you need a float, not only to show boats where you are, but also as a place to keep your fish. It is much simpler to keep the floatline attached to your gun and not bother with a reel!!

If you're hunting fish under 10lb's, you could always just use your gun with-out reel or floatline. Especially if you're diving in shallow waters. Assuming you're using a 90cm gun in 6m of water, if you get your spear stuck in a cave, the gun would still float at about 4.5m from the bottom, which is EASILY visible from the surface, even in 2-3m viz!!

Some guys here spear that way. Some are even to MACHO to use a reelgun!!! Here's a pic of one of my buddies with a 18kg Yellowtail which he shot in 8m water i think, with ONLY his gun. No reel, no floatline. He didn't stone the fish either!!

For our type of inshore pelagics, where you're continously chasing and jumping in on schools of yellowtail smashing bait on the surface, reels work exceptionally well. No floatlines to unroll when you get in, no floatline to tangle with the boats props, no floatline to tangle with YOU!!, no floatline to roll up again before getting into the boat, makes for an uncluttered deck. Since each fish shot is put in the boat, (for sharky reasons!!!), we don't need a float to carry out fish either!!

Regards
miles

 

[portinfer]

I use a totemsub pelagos 100 with a reel and it floats when discharged. I've only had one wrap up in the kelp and had to dive for it three times and eventually cut it loose. Other than that I like the reel as it allows you to give a fish a bit of line if you think you have shot it badly - so instead of dropping your gun and following it you just give it line. Gives me more piece of mind than dropping a gun in murky water

Like I say before you could get away with a double wrap in UK waters I reckon.

Often I don't take a float so having a reel is a nice streamlined way of dealing with needing more line. Some places we never see boats and the currents run faaaast so you want as little gear as possible. Floats def. add drag if you are on an exploratory safari.

Having said that I do swim with them a mile or so and mooching around for a couple of hours. I like having a weight that will stay put when you drop it and also it gives you more weight if you come across a deeper spot that you want to drop down to but don't want to haul all the weight back up with you. Equally when you hit the shallows you have enough weight to drop to the bottom with slightly less full lungs.

Works for me but everyone I dive with just uses a metal/aluminium gun with a single wrap except for one bloke who uses a totem pelagos 100 with a reel too and he has an 80 gimansub labrax with a reel too. Both float when discharged. The Italians, Marco and Fabio both use guns with reels - I think they use 90cm Cressi (?) Apache or Comanche guns with reels - Fabio has yet to bring his 100cm C4 gun over here (has a reel too).

Hopefully might get some of my buddies to use a float a bit more often next year (with swell or in boaty areas or on the more safari type swims) as it is a pain worrying about them and if they have got out or not (actually my eyesight is shocking ... so a big orange blob to head for would help me).

Hope that helps.
Ed

 

[Mr. X]

...Some are even to MACHO to use a reelgun!!! Here's a pic of one of my buddies with a 18kg Yellowtail which he shot in 8m water i think, with ONLY his gun. No reel, no floatline. He didn't stone the fish either!! ...

So a "real man" rather than a "reel man" then!

BTW Miles, who makes the rig shown above -- is it Rabitech? I think I have seen something like the middle picture somewhere before (an Oz spearo gallery?). I could only find this: http://www.spearfishing.com.au//fra...w.spearfishing.com.au//shop.php?group=rigging

 

[dave]

Like I say before you could get away with a double wrap in UK waters I reckon.



Works for me but everyone I dive with just uses a metal/aluminium gun with a single wrap Ed

Not sure I understand why you are recomending a double wrap, when you dont use one and neither does anyone you dive with?

For UK diving (with a single rubber gun, double rubbers are a different matter) I find a double wrap is more trouble than it is worth. The main issue is you have a lot less control over a fish imediately after shooting it, and there is twice as much line to get tangled. It also slows down reloading time considerably
The speed stringer is made by Rabitech (I have them in stock), but it was originally an Australian or New Zealand idea
cheers
dave
www.spearo.co.uk

 

[portinfer]

Sorry - should be more careful ... Pete and his brother Miles use double wraps and so does my brother - MOST of the other people use single wraps. I have used double wraps but I don't use a double wrap on the gun with a reel. I have another gun where I use a double wrap (or at least will when it is completely finished - 80cm, single rubber, 115cm 6mm spear, no reel) and I use three wraps and no reel on the 90cm mamba that I use.

I dont find it slows things down significantly, maybe by a couple of seconds but after all since most of my breathe ups are at least three minutes who is in a rush ? Maybe if you are hunting from the surface and need to shoot fish quickly then use a single wrap but I think the speed of loading is insignificant.

Also I favour a double wrap over a single because I tend to find that the fish head for the bottom so you have a bit more line to make the surface. Personally I prefer to have a quiet fish with it's head in the weed below you than one thrashing around in mid water. And I am probably wrong but think that you get a bit more range with more line. So from my experience I get more 'control' by having more line ... be that with a reel or with a double wrap. I have never been tangled in line and find it completely managable (the one time the fish got tangled in the kelp on the bottom was a pain but it may have been lost if it was thrashing around in mid water as it was a poor shot - got to improve on that this year...). Each to their own - this is what works for me.

Anyway - Mr X good luck with making the kelp rig and probably a good idea to try it out locally in whatever kelp you can find before you take it over to the other side of the pond ... those striped bass look like our bass but on steroids

Ed