What is packing, how do you do it, and how to equalize without hands?

[cdavis]

Shrek: what Simos is describing is a very light frenzel done against mask pressure. BTV is just opening the ear tube valves, but a light frenzel makes it much easier to open the valves. It makes BTV much more effective and allows hands free much deeper. It takes a bit of practice and awareness to realize and prevent the loosing air from over-frenzeling.

Sounds like you are doing something different from me. Conscious equalizing of the mask requires the the soft palette be closed the rest of the time (I think) That should preclude equalizing the ears (I think). Can you continue to BTV after the mask starts squeezing down on your face?

I usually do a combination of BTV and soft frenzel, hands free, but once got pure BTV to work down to 98 feet, with only 60 percent of a lungful. At that point, I switched over to holding my nose; it did not feel like a light frenzel would work, and got down to 109 before I started feeling squeezed. So, it is possible to equalize BTV very deep.

 

[Simos]

Shrek: what Simos is describing is a very light frenzel done against mask pressure. BTV is just opening the ear tube valves, but a light frenzel makes it much easier to open the valves. It makes BTV much more effective and allows hands free much deeper. It takes a bit of practice and awareness to realize and prevent the loosing air from over-frenzeling.

I usually do a combination of both, but once got pure BTV to work down to 98 feet, at 60 percent of a lungful. At that point, I switched over to holding my nose; it did not feel like a light frenzel would work, and got down to 109 before I started feeling squeezed. So, it is possible to equalize BTV very deep.

True Connor - when I saw the video of me I am referring to I was really worried I wouldn't be able to equalise so I did do a light frenzel with my tongue to make sure my tubes opened and I didn't miss an equalisation.

This year (well I've only been diving once so far) I've dropped the frenzel and just tried pure BTV as I feel more confident than last year as I'm more relaxed when I dive and also I think my e-tube muscles are in better shape as I have been training the muscles. I had no need for a frenzel but admittedly it did dive very shallow (max 10m-12m or so as this is the max of the local lake). However I'm positive as when i started with BTV I had trouble even in shallow depths all the time whereas now I haven't had a single EQ problem so far.

Even when I use pure BTV, I usually don't have to do any nose 'puffs' for the mask. I prefer to let a bit of air escape through the nose at regular intervals as I equalise.

I think once I get the chance to dive a bit deeper I might go back to trying the light frenzel against the mask in combination with BTV. For the depths I dive (ie not very deep) it seems to be the most convenient approach for now... If I run into trouble I might consider pinching my nose a bit deeper but I just love the freedom of hands-free EQ too much
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[Simos]

Sounds like you are doing something different from me. Conscious equalizing of the mask requires the the soft palette be closed the rest of the time (I think) That should preclude equalizing the ears (I think). Can you continue to BTV after the mask starts squeezing down on your face?

Just saw this Connor - I'd love to know the answer too ie whether it's possible to equalise with the soft palate closed. I thought otherwise but i am pretty sure I used to have the soft palate closed when I doing BTV. However after I fine-tuned it a bit I realised that every opening of the tubes started with the soft palate closed but the last moment I open the soft palate for a moment. This is helping my equalisation but also as a convenient by-product allows a bit of air to escape into the mask... Any of this makes sense?
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[cdavis]

Sure does. Timing is tricky, but I would not be surprised if I do the same thing, That might explain why I can't figure out how to mouthfil, which requires that the soft palate stay open or at least open at the right time.

Shrek, you can give up on explaining how you do it in terms that anybody who can't can understand. Nobody can explain it, we just do it.

Connor

 

[Simos]

Connor actually.... I've just realised that I might be using the soft palate to push air into my e-tubes! Hence why i need to open and close the soft palate and why I always have a bit of air escaping.

Hmm... I am not 100%. But i am definitely using something at the back of my mouth to do a light frenzel in addition to BTV and it's definitely not using tongue or cheeks...
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[Walid]

Hi,

I think I'm using exactly the same technique for deep equalization, which I find sometimes very sensitive and too easy to lose, plus it actually obliges me to contract myself at depth in order to obtain some extra air to "push" against my nose, using the soft palate. I think it would be much better to learn how to make a proper Frenzel in order to be able to stay totaly relaxed.

 

[Simos]

Encouraging to know that you use it to go deep Walid, although you are of course highlighting the limitations of this method. I use it for much shallower depths but even somewhere between 15m-20m I caught myself having to contract my diaphragm so I must be doing something wrong...

Do you open your mouth (with lips closed of course!) to create as much space possible when contracting yourself? I think if you try to keep your lungs/diaphragm relaxed and use your mouth to create some negative pressure, the air will flow to your mouth a bit easier.

Of course for the depths that you are diving to you might need to contract - by the way, when you say 'contract' do you mean to reverse pack or do you physically change your posture to facilitate the air moving up (e.g. curling into a cannonball shape)?

 

[Simos]

Also Walid have a look at this if you haven't before:
THE LAST EQUALISATION :: Technical

It also talks about the technique of bringing air up by extending the job and opening the mouth, thus creating more volume... (and hence lower pressure)

 

[Walid]

Hi Simos,

Actually the only moment I fill my mouth is at about 30, or lower afterwards, because I loose that air quite quickly, and I use it to equalize further down (I'm more focusing on CNF, between 60 and 70m). I think It's rather a kind of mouthfill than a way to create pressure.
The action of dropping the jaw, in the article, is more a way to practice BTV, I actually can use this jaw dropping movement to equalize hand free dry, but not in the water.
I usually use the "ear drums cracking" on the first meters of the descent, in order to avoid to lose air through the mask, and then use that technique, which I thought it was Frenzel, using my soft palate or tongue up, in order to "push" the air to the e tubes.
The issue about this method is that it's hard (for me) to stay relaxed at the bottom, since I feel I need to contract my body, and it's not necessarely to reverse pack, but rather to be able to send some air (maybe to the nasal cavity, I'm not sure though) by making a sound similar to a 'K', which I guess is a soft palate movement.

 

[kevtron]

Posting to get notifications. But also as a quick question about my own 'clicking' experience.

I'm quite able (on land) to just 'click' the muscles in my ears, and when I hold them open and hum I can hear the right ear louder (as it's being held open), but nearly never the left. I tried with one of the tips above (which was to open my mouth as wide as possible, and then click), which does let me hear the loud humming in both ears; though diving with a mouth open probably isn't the best idea.

Any suggestions? I know many people often find it easier with one ear or the other, I just find it odd that I am definitely clicking both ears, but only actually feel that one is opening.

Also: Anyone know where I can get the Frederico Mana book mentioned above? The Amazon link shows it as sold out.

 

[trux]

Also: Anyone know where I can get the Frederico Mana book mentioned above? The Amazon link shows it as sold out.

For example here:

Literatura - Apnea Services s.r.o.

 

[Simos]

Hey energy - it's very normal to have one e-tube open but not the other. I had it too but after lots of practice the other one started opening too. Still my left opens a bit easier than the right but I can open both.

The book on equalisation by Federico Mana is excellent... apart from BTV! There is hardly anything on BTV - makes sense as he doesn't seem to use BTV so maybe he can't offer much advice on it. This is absolutely fine but the only thing I don't fully agree with (humbly) is that federico says that there are certain gifted individuals that can do BTV and the rest can't - it's true that it's much easier for some but I think the rest of us can also do varying degrees of BTV with LOTS of practice.

Let me stress again though that it's an excellent book and really worth buying.

 

[Simos]

I tried with one of the tips above (which was to open my mouth as wide as possible, and then click), which does let me hear the loud humming in both ears; though diving with a mouth open probably isn't the best idea

Why not? When we say mouth open we mean jaw open but lips closed, is that how you are trying? I'd encourage you to try and open your jaw (lips closed) while trying to bring your jaw as 'forward' as possible. Look at it as a jaw stretch and do it every day for a few weeks. You can also try wiggling your jaw left-right while you hum and see if it opens the other ear.

Give it a few weeks for the muscles to strengthen and you'll get it...

 

[dimitris33]

Try Otovent to strengthen your muscles with tubular aerobics..

 

[cebaztian]

Maybe this could be helpfull:
The mouthfill - how to equalize deep in freediving

Sebastian

 

[kevtron]

Cool update on practicing this. I finally got deep this past weekend so was able to check it out. I've been practicing opening and holding open my muscles all the time.

While SCUBA diving I was able to hands free equalize more often than not. But SCUBA is much slower of course. Still a cool test. Then, the next day freediving I found that while diving FIM or CNF I could open the right side often, and the left side a little bit. But regardless, my equalization using Frenzel was much easier all around.

I also talked with some other people in my freedive group about it, and some said that they learned how to do BTV practicing in the pool. So there's hope! Hopefully I'll be able to keep getting closer to hands free!

 

[Kars]

For me hands free is the way I love my freedive to be.

My best recollections of dives were all having a big hands free equalisation part, I would say going down hands free makes my dives feel twice as immersive and blissful.

 

[nenrandir]

(Sorry, post in wrong thread. Damn iPhone

 

[arcudohori]

Hey guys, I red all the thread and I started the 4 weeks training technique that I found on the internet and now I have some problems. I tried the hmmm and is working only to my left ear, rarely the right ear is opening after a serious jaw movement. When I started the swallowing technique I had the same problem. Only my left ear is working but not at the level that I think it should work.
What should I do?

 

[Simos]

Hey guys, I red all the thread and I started the 4 weeks training technique that I found on the internet and now I have some problems. I tried the hmmm and is working only to my left ear, rarely the right ear is opening after a serious jaw movement. When I started the swallowing technique I had the same problem. Only my left ear is working but not at the level that I think it should work.
What should I do?

Just keep at it and you'll get it - practice daily and train your e-tube muscles. It takes a while for this muscles to strengthen but you'll get there, it's quite usual for one ear to clear but not the other.