Which spear gun is better?

[cucubu]

Hi, I want to buy a new gun an I need help.
Is it such a big difference between an aluminum and a carbon one? I want to buy a 110-115cm. Is it such a big difference between 105cm and 115cm?
Rollers are truly better then the 2 band guns? A good carbon gun is better the a aluminum roller? Why are so many choises... ?

Here are some choices. Which one of this is better? This are all aluminum guns, but the price of the last 2 is as much as a carbon gun...so is better an "expensive" aluminum gun or a "normal" carbon?

Have anyone of you use any of these guns? Which is better for let's say 5m and 0.5kg to 20kg fish? Which one is still OK after let's say 300 shots?
Thank you!!!


Picasso Magnum Rail 110
Epsealon Striker Pro 110
Beuchat Hero 110
Omer Cayman HF Camu 3D 110
Cressi Comanche Pacific 110
Mares Viper Pro DS 110
Salvimar Metal 115
Sigalsub Nemesis Plus 116
Omer Invictus HF 110
Picasso Magnum BW 115
Cressi Cherokee Open Mimetic 110
Salvimar Hero 115
Cressi Cherokee Ocean 110

carbon - all are about the same price

Spetton Rebel Hi Tech Open Carbon 115
Pathos Saragos Carbon 110
Pathos Laser Open Carbon 110
Picasso Magnum Carbon Rail 115
Omer Cayman Carbon 110
Epsealon Spartan 110
Beuchat Marlin Carbon HD 115
Sigalsub Nemesis Carbon Pro 116
Epsealon Cobra 110

 

[popgun pete]

Spearguns are all pretty much the same and the models that you list are all variations on the same theme, with only minor changes in the details. Carbon tube barrels are lighter, but not by much and are stiffer, however the shots are not greatly affected and in the hands of a competent spearfisherman all will do the job required. Few would have tried many of the guns you listed and certainly not all of them. Buy the one that appeals to you and suits your hand and the fish that you are after. The latest guns incorporate new fads and ideas, but ultimately the propulsion is the same using stretched rubber bands in all of them. Marketing hype and spin talks up new features to sell more guns as there are fashions in diving just like everything else, but out on a dive a guy with a 20 year old gun will probably shoot as many fish as anyone else.

 

[cucubu]

Thank you! I have read that some trigger mechanism after few shots are having problems. For example the Salvimar Metal has now a new trigger because of these problems.
So another question wold be, if anyone know from experience which trigger is better or at least it is OK after let's say 100 shots.
Another question is about shafts. So one is 20 euro and another is 70 euro. Do you think there isn't any difference? for example Epsealon Stiker Pro has the Sandvik steel shaft and Omer Invictus has America shaft with 3 laser welded shark...so you are saying that the difference is too small to be important!?

Several years ago I used an Imesion 60cm gun for an year almost every day - and was very good - had to replace only the bands, and few days ago I have tried a Beauchat 100 Mundial Competition which was at least 2 times more expensive...but after few hours the gun was full of water so...they are not the same.

I don't have money for a wood gun yet - maybe this would be a real difference. I don't want to pay money for some crazy super carbon gun and the difference to be minimal compare with aluminum...or I don't want to buy some fancy aluminum Cressi which is almost as expencice as a cabon gun and after 100 shots with 2 bands to have to replace the triger mechanism...

If any of you have some real experience with any of these gun or other please share...thank you.

 

[popgun pete]

Trigger problems are usually sorted out before a gun is put into production. In the past guns with plastic load bearing triggers had problems as the plastic could swell on immersion and the necessary clearances were lost, plus the dipping sear tooth types could produce a false lock being jammed rather than engaged on the trigger. Such problems sunk the "Pelaj" and a few other guns of similar ilk.

Generally you get what you pay for, guns are made to cater for all divers as not everyone has deep pockets. At the top end you pay for higher quality, but sometimes that is just appearance and finish because a less costly gun will shoot just as well. I have used alloy tube guns and the main thing was they benefitted from a guide track for the shaft. I made my own timber guns, but have bought a few commercial ones to try them out. Timber guns are less prone to recoil as the guns are generally heavier, but still float after the shot.

Medium sized fish can be shot with anything provided the gun shoots straight and the shots are reproducible. That way when a fish swims through a sight picture that you have seen before then you know that you will achieve a hit if your timing is right. Too much is made of guns, it is the hunter not the arrow in the end.

 

[cucubu]

Thank you!

 

[Andrew the fish]

Cucubu, like Popgun Pete said, side-by-side comparison is difficult for so many guns. you will always find someone who was not happy but there will be someone who would use nothing but. I came up with a few requirements to the gun, and would probably refine it as time goes by. My absolutely required options are : stainless everything, reverse trigger, two-band either as an option or originally, sharkfin shaft, open muzzle and a track. Track is actually a big one, I will never buy another gun without one. Positive buoyancy (gun with no shaft) is also important, to me anyway. See? With so many options available, JBL flies out the window, and this is sometimes 50% of what some stores carry, at least here in americas.

On top of that you have to consider if the gun you are looking at is complete ready to fish, or bare. Price-wise this point can cost you $$$s if you have to complete. But then, if it is complete, sometimes it is cheaper stuff than what you would want on your gun.

 

[MAKO Spearguns]

I would suggest you try to narrow down your choices by deciding what features you need/want. First determine if you want a roller muzzle or a standard configuration, Then it would make sense to decide on AL versus CF barrel and then .. pick a size. You should understand that generally shorter roller guns can perform similarly to a longer standard gun.

You have a good list of guns. I was a hoping to see MAKO Spearguns on the list, but we don't (yet) offer CF barrels or roller muzzles. Our guns do have an unconditional 3-yr warranty and this should extend far past the 300 shot threshold you mentioned.

Good Luck!I
Dano

 

[Jworthy]

There’s a surprisingly accurate speargun performance calculator which allows you to compare several speargun designs simply by using numerical data making side by side comparison easy. This doesn’t however tell you other important design criteria like ease of loading, or accuracy.

Check it out.
http://speartool.com/

 

[popgun pete]

Accuracy of the calculation results, how is that worked out? Interesting idea, but any model is only as good as the assumptions made, leave something out and the results can be quite different to what a model predicts.

 

[sharkey]

I'm looking for the mass or weight coefficient? A timber gun these days isn't just timber, often there are several laminates of carbon (three people can stand on the middle of some long guns & there is still zero flex) & several pockets of strategically placed ballast. Also many builders build a small bias into the barrel to tune the spears behaviour, I don't see a coefficient for this bias or the placement of ballast.
This type of tuning, together with guns mass are very critical for accuracy (If your model isnt for determining accuracy, where is its real value proposition). I know this goes way beyond the performance for typical commercially available factory guns, or even the demand from most spearos, but they are things gun builders look at.

 

[Jworthy]

There’s more information on the website, but basically you define your own assumptions. e.g. mechanical losses or barrel/rubber properties, but naturally there are some limitations. (This is Excel we’re talking about). Where this is the case it is clearly stated in the user guide.
This tool doesn’t model non-uniform cross-sectional barrels, nor barrels of varying materials. That would require a more complicated software package.

The value in this is that the results are governed by the same formulas, which allows objective comparisons. Despite this, the results are pretty darn close to what has been measured experimentally. The tuning is actually very important, like you say. Shaft stiffness against loading is unfortunately very difficult to model analytically especially in conjunction with resistance forces. For that computational fluid dynamics would be way more accurate. That’s why it wasn’t included in this tool.

 

[popgun pete]

Most timber guns have tapered barrels, so the model will not be much use there. Simple tube guns and equivalent timber barrels that are simply cut to length used to be how mass production guns were made, but a lot more variation today. In the past this was also true of guns like my “Reefmaster”, it ain’t a simple length of timber.

Here you can see the tapering cross-section of the big Reefmaster which shoots 3/8" shafts with 3/4" rubber.

 

[Jworthy]

True, but you can make some sensible assumptions about average cross-section to get you a fairly accurate bending/buckling analysis.
If it’s buoyancy you’re then worried about, just fudge the figures for mass of the components to account for cut-outs.

 

[popgun pete]

Easier to make a gun and try it out, plus past experience accumulated over decades helps if you have access to it.

 

[Jworthy]

With your experience I’m sure that’s a great approach. However the original poster may be interested in other methods of comparison.

 

[Mr. X]

I'd love an all carbon gun, like the Italian C4 range or Spanish Kraken spearguns. But they seem like an excessively expensive way to shoot a few fish for the table.

However, you can get the advantages at a much lower price point if you shop carefully. My Omer XXVs come with a small muzzle, slim, light 6.3mm Spears with 24cm-ish overhang and super slim T10 handle and a slim, rail-less 25mm carbon fibre barrel. I switched the standard screw-in bands and French articulated steel wishbone to simpler, lighter, quieter, more powerful, bulk rubbers with Dyneema wishbones. They are superlight with fast, easy tracking for about £90 each inc. shipping.

There is a huge difference between my old, heavy duty, 90cm RA Sparid aluminium railgun and my superlightweight, slim Omer XXV 90 cm speargun. It is not a subtle difference.

My needs and preferences may be different to yours though. I dive from the shore, often walking some distance to get there, carry everything inc. 24lb+ of lead dive weights, sometimes wearing my 5mm wetsuit. I have shoulder pain problems, no doubt age related and due to training, over training and mis-training in my youth (I was a climber, then triathlete). I use spearguns with 75-90cm barrels, often in poor visibility and strong currents, for relatively small fish (5-20lb would be consider big here).

I was sceptical but I now really rate carbon fibre barrels - don't overpay for them though, you can buy carbon fibre fishing rods for under £20 these days, carbon tubes are no longer rare or exotic. Not for complete beginners but for experienced spearos that have encountered problems with the weight and tracking of their own speargun(s) - otherwise why bother! However, it is possible that a heavy spear, muzzle, steel trigger mech, reel, muzzle bungee, long-line clip, lots of rubbers or rollers, etc. might negate much of the benefit of a lightweight barrel - but perhaps that could be a balanced solution for some.

 

[Andrew the fish]

My needs and preferences may be different to yours though. I dive from the shore, often walking some distance to get there, carry everything inc. 24lb+ of lead dive weights, sometimes wearing my 5mm wetsuit. I have shoulder pain problems, no doubt age related and due to training, over training and mis-training in my youth (I was a climber, then triathlete). I use spearguns with 75-90cm barrels, often in poor visibility and strong currents, for relatively small fish (5-20lb would be consider big here).

this is how I speafish! So, really, adding ballast or opting for heavier gun is not a good option. I am thinking, to slow down recoil acceleration, why can't it be some kind of planes or fins perpendicular to recoil vectors? This will dampen the recoil. Or added grip for another hand maybe? Might be good for faster tracking too.

 

[popgun pete]

Shoot using both hands, either your other hand cupping your gun hand, or holding onto the rear butt. People using cocking stock guns or mid-handles often do that to keep the gun under control.

 

[sharkey]

this is how I speafish! So, really, adding ballast or opting for heavier gun is not a good option. I am thinking, to slow down recoil acceleration, why can't it be some kind of planes or fins perpendicular to recoil vectors? This will dampen the recoil. Or added grip for another hand maybe? Might be good for faster tracking too.

These “fins” have the same specific gravity as water, as such they don’t effect the balance of the gun or how “light” it feels when in the water( they can be made heavier for guns which need it).They still have mass however & are still considered ballast.

 

[popgun pete]

View attachment 55553

These “fins” have the same specific gravity as water, as such they don’t effect the balance of the gun or how “light” it feels when in the water( they can be made heavier for guns which need it).They still have mass however & are still considered ballast. View attachment 55553

Good idea for timber guns as you can drill holes in them, carbon barrels a different story, although they have been molded in on some past efforts like the Matt Alexander guns which I have not seen in years.

Just found a photo of it, or one exactly like it, which I saw at "Dive Under Rye" when the gun was down there for testing and at the time it was leaning on the back room wall. Here the gun has just done for a Tuna. Glenn George had one of these as well up in Coffs.