Who Shoots These

[Shadowkiller]

And they gave me this primitive pearl of wisdom (That has always worked for them) "If the fish fights hard:martial ... Means that it's healthy and you can eat it with no concerns... If fights too little and doesn't swim fast... Don't eat because is a sick animal and :yack you'll get sick too":crutch It sounds like a grandma quote but so far people in Can cun follows this and you don't see many locals poisoned by ciguatera.

Sadly this little pearl will remain useless as there is no evidence that ciguatera toxin affects fish. Their behaviour does not change, nor does the appearance, taste, smell or texture of their flesh.

Only higher order animals such as Mice, Cats and Humans display a noticable reaction to ciguatoxin.

I suspect the people in Cancun aren't getting Cig poisoning because they live and fish in an area where it does not occur.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

David,

It sounds like we have pretty much the same attitude, but maybe with just a bit of a difference in expressing it.

I am certainly selective about what I shoot and often pass up a decent white sea bass if I have taken one recently. I don't shoot a big fish just because it swims by me, although I may pass up good sized fish purposely in hopes that a very big one comes by.

Often times I say that I'm really just a diver, enjoying the wonders of the environment and just being there in the water, with spearing a fish now and then to spice it up and give me goals. But I will admit that the goal of "sport" or excitement is an important part of it. That moment when a big fish takes off ripping line off my reel with me helpless to stop it is a rush for me, so I guess that is the sport motive.

I too would have no interest in the Hell Divers Tournament. Not only do they seem to want to shoot anything that comes by, but they seem to put almost as much emphasis on projectile vomiting after the meet as shooting fish during the meet. After the last one, there must have been three or four reports on Spearboard about how knee-walking drunk they got before anyone thought to mention the fish that were taken. Not my idea of a fun day. Perhaps there are participants who don't feel it necessary to drink to the point of passing out after diving, but unfortunately they are not the ones who post and represent the club to the internet world.

But I'll see your Hell Divers tournament and raise you one. I refrain from participating in any tournament because I don't want to have any motivation to shoot a fish that I would not otherwise have taken. I want to shoot a fish only because I want it for myself, not to accumulate points. Do you participate in any tournaments at all? If so, how do you reconcile that with your previous statements?

 

[BennyB]

Not wanting to weigh into this debate, but back in Australia I attended the Sydney Alliman rounds of competitions a couple of times. Virtually every fish taken there is eaten by someone at some time. Even the Silver Drummer, which is regarded as a terrible eating fish by the majority has it's fans out there. In particular, a Portugese man had a fantastic recipe for Silver Drummer and scored really well after all the fish were weighed. There's always friends, helpers and people that are hard up on cash that are around and will gladly take fish off your hands. A couple of times a year (there was some legislative rubbish that made it illegal, though the govt is now trying to amend amid bad public reaction) the fish would be auctioned and the proceeds given to charity. I don't think i've ever taken my catch home from a comp.

Sydney spearos seems to be pretty aware of the public opinion surrounding competition fishing and are proactive in their approach, as it's always the bad impressions that are remembered...

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Many US tournaments make a point of saying that they give the fish to charity or the needy or someone. But for me, the fact remains that the tournament was the reason that fish were killed when they would not otherwise have been killed. Finding someone who will take them is just a way to justify it.

 

[Chad Carney]

Bill - If by sport you mean the physical challenge and benefit.. Heck Yeah. That is the main reason I no longer scuba dive. I enjoy the physical aspect of freediving. I can marvel at hundreds of beautiful creatures ... from starfish to sea cucumbers to whale sharks.... at the same time benefit from the physical exertion.. all while providing some tastey treats for my family.
The sport to me is not blasting a big fish just because it swam in front of me! Visual catch and release works for those with modest self control.
The Hell Divers will shoot practically anything that moves just because they can. I will not fish in their tournament for this reason alone. Spearo's are the first to say "We're selective" .... what exactly does this mean? We only shoot the big uns.... or .... we take only what we need .. implying ..what we eat.
You are right to say buying fish at the market would be ALOT cheaper than spearing them ... and that there are other reasons we spearfish. At least for me.... killing a fish because it's big and it swam in front of me isn't one of them.

David,

Yesterday, I accidentally clicked my early morning response to your thread into cyber wasteland.

In summary it stated that cubera snapper are one of the smartest strongest and most challenging fish to spear and land. They are also good eating and non-toxic in many non-tropical areas. IMHO they are in a totally different class than the other two fish. I have only shot cudas and crevalles in a few tournaments, which required one to place well. Although I'd rather see only quality fish on tourney rosters, that's not up to me.

Calling spearfishermen out with your "Who shoots these?" title made me wonder, but I didn't feel pressed to address it at the time.

***********

Now that additional comments have been made, I have much more to say.

I'm fine with your personal decision to only freedive, but I dislike the obvious inference it makes.

Fact: No fish is wasted at the Hell Divers' Rodeo, unlike many supposedly classier tournaments. The Hell Divers preplan for all of the fish not wanted by competitors, to be donated to indigent people. They supply their huge fish cooler trailer for this purpose every year. A host of the homeless show up for the handouts and I've never seen anyone leave empty handed.

You repeatedly disdain killing for "sheer sport" but overlook the comments by every poster that stated "no fish was wasted."
We all kill for sport, but not sport alone.

But killing fish for bait is ok? You feed the marine environment?
I once heard a longliner say at a fisheries hearing, "I feed many creatures in the ocean with the bait that comes off my hooks." He called himself a "fish farmer!"

Also you've repeated "killing a fish because it's big and it swam in front of me" isn't one of the reasons you spearfish... isn't that exactly what aspetto is? Do you not practice that technique?

I too would have no interest in the Hell Divers Tournament. Not only do they seem to want to shoot anything that comes by, but they seem to put almost as much emphasis on projectile vomiting after the meet as shooting fish during the meet. After the last one, there must have been three or four reports on Spearboard about how knee-walking drunk they got before anyone thought to mention the fish that were taken. Not my idea of a fun day. Perhaps there are participants who don't feel it necessary to drink to the point of passing out after diving, but unfortunately they are not the ones who post and represent the club to the internet world.

But I'll see your Hell Divers tournament and raise you one. I refrain from participating in any tournament because I don't want to have any motivation to shoot a fish that I would not otherwise have taken. I want to shoot a fish only because I want it for myself, not to accumulate points. Do you participate in any tournaments at all? If so, how do you reconcile that with your previous statements?

__________________

Bill,

How could you not know that David is a freediving spearfishing champion?

************


David & Bill,

I have shot in 3 Hell Diver Rodeos, two on scuba and one just skin-diving. I now know a bunch of these hard living, fun loving cajun divers that shoot with or without tanks, or like me, either way.

I may look like a choir boy along side many of them, but they don't BS around a point. If they don't like you they'll tell you straight up, and I find that commendable.

I suspect neither of you know anything about them personally, other than what you've read and find distasteful... to which I say, GET OVER IT!!

Chad

 

[David Biron]

Chad - When you shoot in the Helldivers tournament.. do you shoot Big Rays? Sharks ? Spade fish ? How about when you fish in Florida?
The point of the original thread was to emphasize conservation and point out ..there are many among us who do not. Spearing on scuba is a whole nother thread you can start. I wil be happy to comment on it.
I'm not quite sure where this whole national champion thing came from. I am not, and never have been a spearfishing national champion. I believe the way the event is run puts too much emphasis on prior scouting giving the home team and unfare advantage. The tournaments are usually kayak type meets and I prefer fishing in boats..... as Bill McIntyre stated, they tend to put undue stress on local fish populations. And finally let us not forget the safety issues i.e. nationals 2004!

Bill - I have fished in some tournaments . I like the social aspect of seeing fellow spearo's I wouldn't normally fish with and telling storys of the days dive. My favorite format is either the Big Fish ... where I'm lucky if I even shoot once in a day... or the Specie meet.. where more points are given to various species rather than the weight of your catch.
In general ... I would not classify myself as a competitive spearfisherman..... just a lucky one!

Chad - With regard to my statement about killing fish to bait your lobster trap. Thas was a joke man.... I'd fillet the sucker first then bait the trap

 

[David Biron]

Chad .. I will never kill fish for the sole purpose of satisfying a tournament requirement.
As for the Hell Divers... who said I don't like them? Heck... I have never met them . I'm just not in sync with their management practices ..that's it! Nothing more... so let's not try and read anything into it.

 

[miles]

Hiya

David, you're missing a very important point here: NO FISH IS WASTED!! People spear for a variety of reasons, not NECCESARILY the same ones as you!!

The key issue here is RESPECT. Whether another spearo takes his fish on scuba or freedive for the sport or for the table, RESPECT his wishes. As long as he or she is having fun, and nothing is WASTED, what is the big deal?

And finally let us not forget the safety issues i.e. nationals 2004!

Where does this fit in???? When you enter the ocean or any other body of water as a spearo, you accept certain things. There are many inherent dangers in our sport, the worst being SWB. Not forgetting boats, jetski's and sharks. The spearfishing community lost one of its greatest spearo's on that day. What on earth does that statement you made mean?? If you're worried about SAFETY issues, then STAY OUT OF THE WATER!!!

Regards
miles

 

[Chad Carney]

David,

Sorry, my error about Nationals, I confused you with another freediver, but I had corrected it before you even posted. Your profile states you're a 2x Picasso champ. My point is still valid... in the NE you do shoot fish that "just swim in front of you." We all know it's a very effective technique, especially in visibility like you often have in the NE.

We don't need to discuss scuba vs free, I'm bored with it. Why did you bring it up anyway?

I made a quick search and found you on a Alabama Open website. Now the Hell Diver bashing makes sense.

For viewers sake, the Hell Divers no longer shoot sharks in the HDR, because they are out of season. Everything they do shoot is legal in LA, and they waste nothing.

I'm probably one of the more selective spearos I know, but I shot a spade fish in the HDR last year and a crevalle, because like most tournament shooters I'm competitive, and if I had not I'd have no chance to win a top award. I lost it though, and came in first runner up. I personally handed those fish to a grateful person. I've never shot a ray and hope I never do.

I'm all for tournaments restricting the species and quantities of the kill to better fit the climate of respectful spearfishing today. But, I won't throw stones at others that have different customs and laws.

"Taking a fish for chum is OK.... you are actually feeding smaller animals in the ecosystem. I'd rather chum with a cuda , than chum with a triggerfish." Still doesn't sound like a joke to me.

To my knowledge we've never met, and I'd probably like you if I had not gone on this crusade.

Chad

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Chad wrote:

I suspect neither of you know anything about them personally, other than what you've read and find distasteful... to which I say, GET OVER IT!![

You are absolutely correct. I know nothing of the Hell Divers except what they post on Spearboard, and I find that extremely distasteful. As I said earlier, there probably are members who are not well represented by the ones who post, but all I see is what is posted. I read of guys passing out in the back of their pickups and running their towed boats into gas pumps while drunk. And of course I read of them shooting sharks, rays, and tarpon. I don't have to get over it. All I need to know is that I wouldn't enjoy that and make sure I stay away. In a more general sense though, I am a bit concerned that the thousands of people cruising the net may get their impression of our sport from this sort of posting, and I don't think it will serve us well to be viewed as a bunch of drunk yahoos.

However, all that is a digression from the subject of this thread- why we shoot certain fish, so I'll drop it.

I'm probably one of the more selective spearos I know, but I shot a spade fish in the HDR last year and a cravalle, because like most tournament shooters I'm competitive, and if I had not I'd have no chance to win a top award.

But that was my point in an earlier post. I don't want to shoot a jack or a spade fish just because I need to for an award. I'm just not very competitive. Or maybe its that I'm not good enough to compete successfully and don't want to expose myself to embarassment. Take your pick.

But I don't condemn everyone who participates in tournaments. Its not that big a deal to me. I don't happen to want to do it, but its fine if you want to. I only mentioned my non-participation in the context of a response to David about what was "sporting." I was pretty sure I had read of him competing with Mike Wade and the guys in Alabama, so I was just seeing if he wanted to address that.

And once more, I don't condemn Mike, David, or you for participating in tournaments, but I am turned off by hearing about shooting sharks, rays, and tarpon, but only as an afterthought after I learned how wonderfully drunk and sick everyone got after the tournament.

 

[David Biron]

Chad - to quote your first post. "I'm fine with your personal decision to only freedive but I dislike the obvious inference it makes".

Perhaps the inference you are referring to is only obvious to yourself? This statement caught me off guard simply because I was not inferring anything.. Having been a professional hard hat diver in my past.. I will be happy to comment on the use of underwater breathing aparatus to stalk prey.. only on a different thread. For now the topic of discussion should focus on conservation and spearfishing ..which for the majority of the world by definition implies "Freediving"!

Miles - The comment I made with regard to safety had to do with reasons I am not a "competitive" spearo. I think that competitions in general set the stage for participants to push and often exceed their personal limits, often with drastic consequences. Having said that... and to get to the topic at hand.... competitions often have competitors shooting fish they normally would not. In Chad Carney's first post he admitted having shot Jack Crevalle and Barracuda for the sole purpose of filling a tournament requirement.

It's good we talk about these sensitive issues.....Isn't it?
Hey man ..... has my carma rating increased yet?

 

[ROBERT REYES]

I love to eat spade fish, taste it , you will see why.
I do think we kill fish, no matter how we put it, thats what
we do, with the big guns I use, am very selective, hell, before shooting
a wahoo,before pulling the trigger I find myself turning my head around looking for a bigger one, is that selective or just lazy about loading a big
multi band gun?

 

[Louis Rossignol]

The Hell Divers will shoot practically anything that moves just because they can. I will not fish in their tournament for this reason alone. Spearo's are the first to say "We're selective" .... what exactly does this mean? We only shoot the big uns.... or .... we take only what we need .. implying ..what we eat.
You are right to say buying fish at the market would be ALOT cheaper than spearing them ... and that there are other reasons we spearfish. At least for me.... killing a fish because it's big and it swam in front of me isn't one of them.

Hi community,

I kill for the thrill, if you don't like it, I don't give a damn.

I can say damn, can't I?

Thanks Chad.

Rok out

p.s. is that ok with you admin? Don't bother giving me the boot, I won't be back. I like a board that you can speak freely and not get threatened by the administrator.

 

[Erik]

p.s. is that ok with you admin? Don't bother giving me the boot, I won't be back. I like a board that you can speak freely and not get threatened by the administrator.

If you don't feel you have the ability to contribute your opinion respectfully, then no, you are not welcome here. If dropping in for 1 post and running is your style, then so be it. However, if you believe you have the language and self-control to talk as an intelligent man, then stay and speak your mind. Nobody's opinion is ever denied, just the tone, same as anywhere else.

In your defense, I agree with Chad that the member who started this thread did so with an agenda, looking for you or any of your friends to step in for a scrap. He's won, because you knee-jerk reacted, pulling the 'I'm a badass' BS. Had you spoken your piece withoput lowering yourself, you could have defended yourself and the Helldivers.

For the record, I think the Helldivers are allright and i believe they have big balls doing the stuff they do. If you believe the same, then state your (and the Helldivers' if you're a spokesman) position. Nicely please.
Peace,
Erik Y.

 

[Amphibious]

you were not threatened and I am not the admin/

your post was edited as it contained remarks that are not permited as of board rules. it was then stated that if you continued you would not be welcome here. again, as per poard rules.

If you feel that was threating it may be something to take up with a therapist?


if you kill only for the thrill I feel very bad for you, and you need proffesional help.

 

[David Biron]

Erik - My name is David Biron and I started the thread. My member name is David Biron because I don't feel the need to disguise my identity.
Your recent post stated that I started this post with an agenda ... one which included calling out the HellDivers for a good scrap. You couldn't be farther from the truth.

Louis of the Helldivers.... I appologize if you did not like what I mentioned in previous post. The point is.. this is a forum for discussing issues that relate to diving and spearfishing. Some can at times be of a sensative nature as is the issue of conservation. I have always been proud of beind a spearfisherman and believe it to be the most selective and eco freindly method of fish harvesting.
After seeing many photo's of people with fish I thought had little or no table (eating) value.. I decided to start the post "Who Shoots These".
Roberto made some excellent remarks to the effect ... one person's trash is anothers treasure.
For those who posted their opinions... I applaud you and respect your point of view.
The only point I was making with regard to "Hell Divers"was that I do not participate because it does not meet with my own personal conservation standards. Their are many fish on the tournament list which are actually illegal to shoot in Florida water. If my opinion offended you in some way..I am sorry .. it was not meant to be a personal attack .
There was no Agenda ... and I thank all who took the time to participate in the discussion .

 

[Asturven]

David,

Going back to your original question.
I was born in Spain and lived a lot of years in Venezuela, and now in Houston so I fished in different places and very different fishes. It is amazing how everything changes from one place to another.
I really like to fish and cook, and one of the best things about the fishes is the infinite forms to cook that you can cook them and the great number of different species, so this combination gives you a huge number of combinations.

The Cudas and Cuberas are very appreciated in other places, like Venezuela where there are little ciguatera poisonings in a year, and most of them happen with groupers from coral reefs.

The Cubera are not bad is just another snapper like the dogs, mutton or mangos, the big problem are the big ones, they are dry to cook, but the small ones up to 35 pounds are really good. Fish a Cubera in freediving is one of the best experiences of your life, these fishes are really strong and difficult to kill, and like Chad told us you will need to make your best Aspetto.

The Jacks are a more simple fish and they are cook to make soups or dishes where you really use other kinds of better fish at the same time. They are not one of the best of course.

The three species are found in the markets in several places, and there are people that enjoy some fishes more than others. Like other guys told you one of the best Ceviche are made with Cuda.

One of the best examples are here in Houston, the normal people (non fishermen) eat a lot of Catfish, and Tilapia. These fishes in other places are crap, and nobody eat them. But they are really easy to get them farm raised, so it is a good business but they are really bad to eat. If you eat all the fishes fried and really seasoned, you do not care but if you cook those with other recipes you will notice that they are tasteless.

I think that you answered yourself “one person's trash is another’s treasure”.

Cheers

Ivan

 

[Erik]

Erik There was no Agenda ... and I thank all who took the time to participate in the discussion .

I apologise if I misinterpreted, David.
The internet is a great place for misinterpretation as we lose the non-verbal and para-verbal part of communication (the most importanty part).

I also agree that nothing should be killed without a purpose, and that taking of any life should be done with grace and respect.
I have killed hundreds of fish since I started spearing and always feel some remorse and say a prayer of thanks.
Peace,
Erik Y.

 

[Chad Carney]

Erik,

Well moderated, as usual.

In Chad Carney's first post he admitted having shot Jack Crevalle and Barracuda for the sole purpose of filling a tournament requirement.

David,

Good for you, that you would have passed on the HDR tournament spadefish and crevalle! (I did not shoot a cuda last year.) What bearing does their lack of legality in Florida bring to the conversation? They are not illegal in LA.

Maybe you don't have an agenda... but it's just possible you don't realize that you come off as condescending about how other spearfishers conduct themselves. I'm not alone in that interpretation, so it's not reading something into it.

If I shoot tournament fish this spring, like sheepshead, which are important in the Florida state freedive tournament, it's not for the sole purpose of the tournament. Yes, I don't normally shoot them, but you make it sound like they will be tossed in the closest dumpster immediately after the weigh-in.
Once again, no fish will be wasted!

I really enjoy spearing fish in many different states and countries, and when I'm there I follow the rules of the locals, whether it's with a sling on a breath in the Bahamas or with a triple banded cannon at 220fsw on an oil rig in LA.

When in Rome...

Chad