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Why is it impossible to get the shaft you want?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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DiveHacker

Active Member
Jun 17, 2020
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All I want it....

Spring steel - why on earth are there not more spring steel options?

145cm length (this screws me because so many shafts are 140, then 150... My gun is 105 and I do not want a 150cm shaft, and 140 is too short for my 105 gun I think).

7mm

Pencil tip

Sharkfins positioned to take full advantage of a reverse mech gun (don't get me started on this one)

Sharkfins have holes

Single flopper


Maybe that is asking a lot. I guess it is because it hardly exists! Even if it did exist, I guarantee it would be difficult to impossible to ship it to me.

I do really like the spearmaster and rob allen, but I don't like the faceted tips and rob allen seem to either be notches or sold out in any other variation. Spearmaster the same.

I ordered a picasso gold spring steel shaft but i waited weeks and it would not ship, and it was not 145 anyway, and i did not like the sharkfin positioning as well.

I really like the outline of the salvimar capture shafts, but why no spring steel? Almost got one anyway but no 145cm.

I finally ended up compromising with a sigalsub HRC 145cm. I really like the look of this shaft and I think i will be really happy with it, so my rant here is really unjustified, hopefully. But i did really want a spring steel shaft.

Why on earth does sigalsub not just make a version of these shafts in spring steel... seems to me it would or could be very popular.

Am i too picky or is this really more difficult to make what i want than i think?
 
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Mr. X

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Yes, probably too picky! :D. Spring steel spears eventually start to rust a bit, even if you flush them wish freshwater after every use. A light oiling with an oily rag (see YouTube video by Paul Seller for making a rag in a can oiler, perfect for this task and protecting steel tools) is advisable.

I've used spring steel and stainless steel spears, I like both. Stainless is very low maintenance. I like tri-cut tips but cone tips seem to work as well. I find cone tips easy to keep sharp with a slow wet grinder. Tri-cut tips require a little more care to keep them as pristine as RA provide them but you can do it by hand, using a cheap oilstone or diamond plate.

I like sharkfins when loading but I'm not convinced that it is worth the increased drag and the weakening caused by the welds (see thread on Cressi spear failures :( ).

I normally use a single flopper, either on top Euro style or on bottom SA style. I prefer the former for less drag and better hydrodynamics when swinging the speargun around horizontally but prefer the latter for positive engagement. Never had a fish pull off my RA spear but had a few pull off my Omer spears (before I tuned the floppers anyway :oops: ).

I'd like to try a double flopper spear but perhaps unnecessary now my floppers are tuned. I'd also like to try one of the big trident tipped spears as used by one of the French spearos on YouTube. And an RA drop flopper.
 
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Mr. X

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For 105, I would normally go for about 145cm but with the reverse trigger I would go for 150cm, to get the normal overhang.

I think all 4 of my current spearguns have slightly or significantly shorter spears than normal/traditional. I think it's been overdone, possibly to reduce manufacturing and shipping costs. The slightly shorter spears on my Omer XXVs are fine, they fit with the light, agile, fast tracking design ethos. But in general, I would prefer traditional spear lengths.

HRC? Is there a number next to the HRC?
 

Bill McIntyre

San Clemente, CA
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Jan 27, 2005
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I'm fortunate that there are two guys here in SoCal that will make me shafts exactly to my specifications including length, distance of shark fins from tail of shaft, spacing of shark fins, mini rest tab with line hole, threaded stepped down from 5/16" to 9/32" etc. These are stainless but I've never asked for spring steel so I'm not certain that they wouldn't do it. I don't know where you are in the world, but I suspect postage would be prohibitive.
 
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Andrew the fish

Well-Known Member
Oct 17, 2010
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“spring steel” is a flashy name, marketing ploy these days, it doesn’t mean anything. Spring steel in its original form is a plain-jane 1065 carbon steel, leaf prings on early cars of last century were made out of, which in sea water will rust violently in matter of days. I don’t want more spearshafts to be made out of spring steel, in fact I don’t want spring steel anywhere on my spearguns. I understand that the name “spring steel” is something people can relate to, like something “springs are made out of”. Like something strong that will spring back and will not bend. The name itself has emotional attachment, and exploited heavy, the name, not the steel. In reality, coil springs are often made out of very soft alloys, most certainly any spearshaft can be rolled into coil spring and will perform just fine.

Some manufacturers specify what alloy and how it was heat treated and even mention hardness with real numbers. Those numbers have meaning. I also understand when there is a name to the steel, which is understood by everybody. Anybody knows what is INOX steel? It is also used widely, like some special alloy, must be good one. I just can’t find description anywhere, some secret proprietary steel. Or is it Inox simply to say “stainless”? If so, which one, there are many. Tahitian, anybody?
 

DiveHacker

Active Member
Jun 17, 2020
118
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I'm fortunate that there are two guys here in SoCal that will make me shafts exactly to my specifications including length, distance of shark fins from tail of shaft, spacing of shark fins, mini rest tab with line hole, threaded stepped down from 5/16" to 9/32" etc. These are stainless but I've never asked for spring steel so I'm not certain that they wouldn't do it. I don't know where you are in the world, but I suspect postage would be prohibitive.
Where is that Bill? I get to socal about once every couple years to visit my parents.
 
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DiveHacker

Active Member
Jun 17, 2020
118
70
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For 105, I would normally go for about 145cm but with the reverse trigger I would go for 150cm, to get the normal overhang.

I think all 4 of my current spearguns have slightly or significantly shorter spears than normal/traditional. I think it's been overdone, possibly to reduce manufacturing and shipping costs. The slightly shorter spears on my Omer XXVs are fine, they fit with the light, agile, fast tracking design ethos. But in general, I would prefer traditional spear lengths.

HRC? Is there a number next to the HRC?
I don't think there is a number. I am not clear on their nomenclature, if this is just like their other shafts or if it is supposedly somehow harder steel.

I got caught a bit with my setup because I bought a bag and I will be traveling on public transport a lot. The 150 wont fit in the bag. If i drove my truck down to the beach of course i would not care about the extra 5cm, but I am gonna stick with the 145's. I do really like the amount of overhang with the 145. When i get my million dollar mansion right on the beach i will try a couple of 150's :)
 

DiveHacker

Active Member
Jun 17, 2020
118
70
33
47
For 105, I would normally go for about 145cm but with the reverse trigger I would go for 150cm, to get the normal overhang.

I think all 4 of my current spearguns have slightly or significantly shorter spears than normal/traditional. I think it's been overdone, possibly to reduce manufacturing and shipping costs. The slightly shorter spears on my Omer XXVs are fine, they fit with the light, agile, fast tracking design ethos. But in general, I would prefer traditional spear lengths.

HRC? Is there a number next to the HRC?
Oh i see this in the description "48/50 HRC".
 
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Diving Gecko

shooter & shooter
Jun 24, 2008
1,698
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Overall, I think it’s a case of having many variables and you are a tad picky about many of them (same as me). So, you run out of options faster.

As for the length, I have minimal overhang on my Pathos with just a 130 shaft on a 100 model gun (107cm band stretch). I use Hawaiian shafts with the barb on the underside and the Pathos muzzles have an undercut to allow the barb to rest on the muzzle.
So, why don’t you measure and see if a 140 would work for you? It’s in the middle of what you call “traditional” (+40cm) overhang and the “modern”, shorter overhang (+30cm). With the barb on top, it could very well work with no mods at all.

In regards to Cressi... weren’t they the ones that sent a batch of guns out where they had forgotten to crimp the shooting line...?;-). To me, personally, shark fins ripping off a Cressi shaft or it breaking at the welds is unfortunate but just another example of too many old Euro brands hard at work at hollowing out their former glory;-). I’ve heard stories before of shafts being weak at the welds but mostly on really powered-up guns and it’s been a while. But look at the welds on a Salvi Capture and they look really tiny (laser welded by a robot) and no reports yet of them failing. So, I guess it’s one of those things that some brands have been working on overcoming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Diving Gecko

shooter & shooter
Jun 24, 2008
1,698
458
188
“spring steel” is a flashy name, marketing ploy these days, it doesn’t mean anything. Spring steel in its original form is a plain-jane 1065 carbon steel, leaf prings on early cars of last century were made out of, which in sea water will rust violently in matter of days. I don’t want more spearshafts to be made out of spring steel, in fact I don’t want spring steel anywhere on my spearguns. I understand that the name “spring steel” is something people can relate to, like something “springs are made out of”. Like something strong that will spring back and will not bend. The name itself has emotional attachment, and exploited heavy, the name, not the steel. In reality, coil springs are often made out of very soft alloys, most certainly any spearshaft can be rolled into coil spring and will perform just fine.

Some manufacturers specify what alloy and how it was heat treated and even mention hardness with real numbers. Those numbers have meaning. I also understand when there is a name to the steel, which is understood by everybody. Anybody knows what is INOX steel? It is also used widely, like some special alloy, must be good one. I just can’t find description anywhere, some secret proprietary steel. Or is it Inox simply to say “stainless”? If so, which one, there are many. Tahitian, anybody?

I’m with you on the point about the steel used just being called stuff by sales guys. That said, in general I make the distinction between hardened stainless steels like the 17-4ph and the SA style higher carbon “spring steel” which does offer a slight bump in strength. I did research this a while back but feel like I forgot most of it. But I’ll go out on a limb and say the SA shafts resists bending a bit more whilst they all break at pretty much the same load.

As for Tahitian it’s the opposite of Hawaiian and denotes if the barb is on top or bottom. I’m fairly sure Tahitian is on top (my way of remembering is the ‘T’ in Tahitian stands for ‘top’).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

DiveHacker

Active Member
Jun 17, 2020
118
70
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Overall, I think it’s a case of having many variables and you are a tad picky about many of them (same as me). So, you run out of options faster.

As for the length, I have minimal overhang on my Pathos with just a 130 shaft on a 100 model gun (107cm band stretch). I use Hawaiian shafts with the barb on the underside and the Pathos muzzles have an undercut to allow the barb to rest on the muzzle.
So, why don’t you measure and see if a 140 would work for you? It’s in the middle of what you call “traditional” (+40cm) overhang and the “modern”, shorter overhang (+30cm). With the barb on top, it could very well work with no mods at all.

In regards to Cressi... weren’t they the ones that sent a batch of guns out where they had forgotten to crimp the shooting line...?;-). To me, personally, shark fins ripping off a Cressi shaft or it breaking at the welds is unfortunate but just another example of too many old Euro brands hard at work at hollowing out their former glory;-). I’ve heard stories before of shafts being weak at the welds but mostly on really powered-up guns and it’s been a while. But look at the welds on a Salvi Capture and they look really tiny (laser welded by a robot) and no reports yet of them failing. So, I guess it’s one of those things that some brands have been working on overcoming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah a 140 with the barb on top would work, but most I was interested in like the salvi had it on the bottom. This is actually the reason i would much prefer they place barbs on top.

I did measure it and i suppose depending on exactly where the flopper is on the 140's, some won't fit according to a seller i asked, unless i have an "undercut" which i do not really understand yet.

This sigalsub is going to be fine. If i do like it i will probably just order a couple more one day.
 

Diving Gecko

shooter & shooter
Jun 24, 2008
1,698
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Undercut is just cutting a bit of a countersunk channel in the very front of the muzzle to make some room for the end of the barb to lie in so it doesn’t lifti the front of the shaft.
From memory, the sigal will be 16cm from the tip to the end of the barb. I can’t check as all my Sigal shafts are in storage for now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Mr. X

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Jul 14, 2005
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...Anybody knows what is INOX steel? It is also used widely, like some special alloy, must be good one. I just can’t find description anywhere, some secret proprietary steel. Or is it Inox simply to say “stainless”? If so, which one, there are many. Tahitian, anybody?
I asked the same question on the forum about 10 years ago. The late and much missed Old Man Dave (OMD), Foxfish's brother, explained it is stainless steel! Not sure if it is a specific recipe or commercial brand but it seems to be most commonly seen on French gear and may have been used as a name more in the past (70s?).

Rob Allen spears are made of spring steel. They seem to be galvanized. They rust a little after years of use but a light coat of oil seems enough to hold it at bay. I don't think they're stainless (e.g. high chrome content).

My understanding is that spring steel - the type used in automobile leaf springs - is high carbon steel (about 1%, carbon). Blacksmiths and tool/blade makers often use old leaf springs to make new tools, which are typically heat treated. I have a very nice, tough froe made from an old leaf spring by blacksmith Quercus in Devon.
 
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Mr. X

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Oh i see this in the description "48/50 HRC".
That is the Rockwell hardness rating of the steel. My Apnea spears were hardened to HRC 48. It is the sort of hardness many axes and saw blades are hardened to - hard enough to cut wood but soft enough to withstand blows and to be sharpened with a file.
 

Mr. X

Forum Mentor
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Jul 14, 2005
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Undercut is just cutting a bit of a countersunk channel in the very front of the muzzle to make some room for the end of the barb to lie in so it doesn’t lifti the front of the shaft....
Interesting feature. If I read it correctly, it holds the flopper up, which would overcome one of the disadvantages of a bottom hanging, SA style flopper: lateral drag.
 
Mar 22, 2009
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MAKO stocks a wide variety of shafts with shark fins. A properly welded shark fin is stronger than a notched shaft.

We generally recommend that a shaft be 40 cm longer than the gun length. I suspect that a 140 cm shaft may work for your application.


 
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Satdiver

Member
May 25, 2018
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Contact Dean Koutras at Addiction Shafts, he will make custom shafts. I contact Dean through messenger, you will find him on FaceBook, Addiction Shafts. He is on Instagram as well.
Dean will make shafts any length and weld the fins where you require. The fins are perfect for roller guns. The flopper and flopper pin and the fins are welded prior to the harding process. Dean also makes 10mm shafts. I believe probably the best shafts on the market.
Great to deal with as well.
 
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DiveHacker

Active Member
Jun 17, 2020
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MAKO stocks a wide variety of shafts with shark fins. A properly welded shark fin is stronger than a notched shaft.

We generally recommend that a shaft be 40 cm longer than the gun length. I suspect that a 140 cm shaft may work for your application.


Dano, with reverse mechs, wont the shaft tend to go "deeper" onto the gun though? I think my overhang with a 145 shaft is 19cm for a 105 gun. My guess is that many 140 shafts would work too, and for sure tahitian barb would.
 

DiveHacker

Active Member
Jun 17, 2020
118
70
33
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Contact Dean Koutras at Addiction Shafts, he will make custom shafts. I contact Dean through messenger, you will find him on FaceBook, Addiction Shafts. He is on Instagram as well.
Dean will make shafts any length and weld the fins where you require. The fins are perfect for roller guns. The flopper and flopper pin and the fins are welded prior to the harding process. Dean also makes 10mm shafts. I believe probably the best shafts on the market.
Great to deal with as well.
Those look really nice. Being a newb i had not heard of him. I take trips to socal too. This must be who Bill was referring to above.
 

Satdiver

Member
May 25, 2018
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Those look really nice. Being a newb i had not heard of him. I take trips to socal too. This must be who Bill was referring to above.

I don't think Dean has shafts in stock, you will probably need to order and he will make them to your specification. Dean is in USA.
I know Alemanni gets Addiction shafts made for his guns. I only know of 2 shaft manufactures that make 10mm shafts, that's Addiction Spears & Hunt.
On FB and Instagram his page its called Addiction Spears, not Addiction Shafts as I said before. Check out Deans FB & Instagram page.
 
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