yoga/meditation and freediving

[Fondueset]

I ran some of Eric F.'s remarks past - a very experienced teacher who emphasizes pranayama - primarily as a gateway to non-dual meditation - he concurred with Eric's observations regarding endurance. In some his his written material he discusses the impact of pranayam on his academic efforts during school.

It is important to engage this practice in a relaxed way, to be alert and informed enough to be intelligently observant, and to avoid proceeding in a 'driven' or excessively goal oriented fashion.

Interestingly I've gotten many of the symptoms EF mentions also from doing Taiji - and from being in the presence of certain people.

 

[efattah]

Will,

I meant the symptoms occurring outside of the breath hold.

For example, during intense practice phases, I'll be eating dinner with friends and suddenly my toes will curl forward, my neck twitches, my leg twitches, I suddenly get extremely hot, and so on.

 

[icarus pacific]

send some my way, pal

If you're getting extremely hot at dinner, Eric, you might want to make a note of that when you're with the ladies. Maybe bottle it and sell it with fluid googles? :hmm

...seriously though I'm glad this thread has picked up again and appreciate the input of all here.

 

[efattah]

Another symptom is the sensation of bugs crawling over certain areas of the body. The sensation is unmistakable and can happen at random times. You are, at first, convinced bugs are crawling over a certain area, but there's nothing there.

 

[Fondueset]

These are pretty much all beyond anything I've had go on. However a friend of mine - in addition to pretty much everything Eric has mentioned - has also found herself waking up in asanas - particularly the 'fish pose' as well as rashes over specific areas of the body - not needing glasses anymore and being cured of Crone's disease. In her case Pranayama was never involved - though she has learned some since.

 

[efattah]

Another symptom I've had is called kevala kumbhaka. It means spontaneous breath-holding. I'll be working at the computer, or doing something random, where there is a sudden urge to stop breathing (no inhale, no exhale), as well as the urge to do uddiyana, shambhavi, mula bandha, jalandhara, etc., and it is accompanied by massive instantaneous heat. The urge to breathe doesn't arrive as expected; instead, once the urge to remain in apnea and do the bandhas dissipates, then gradually the urge to breathe arrives.

 

[naiad]

Another symptom I've had is called kevala kumbhaka. It means spontaneous breath-holding. I'll be working at the computer, or doing something random, where there is a sudden urge to stop breathing (no inhale, no exhale), as well as the urge to do uddiyana, shambhavi, mula bandha, jalandhara, etc., and it is accompanied by massive instantaneous heat.

This sometimes happens to me, just the breath-holding, as I haven't done the bandhas. I also haven't felt the heat. I spontaneously hold my breath more when I have been training a lot, mostly when I am asleep after training.

 

[bluh2o]

I think it was in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras where there was mentioned a line..

(In Sanskrit Sutra means Thread by the way. "Suture" comes from Sutra. Interesting how little language has changed in this case between different cultures, eons and technologies ie palm leaves/internet).

anyway, mentions a line that differentiates between the last two posts. Kaivalia Kumbaka is when the Yogi has mastered his science practically to the point that you walk into Eric's computer room one day and find a shell of a body, "The Soul has left the building". His body will be sitting there, metabolically hybernating, waiting for Eric to return from his latest soul surfing trip.

The other kind of spontaneous breath holding is more of the natural case of calm, relaxed forgot to breath for a while, type.

I would like to think of yogi/freedivers out there surfing the astral planes with all the other ancient wise ones. From what I hear they may need a swimming teacher.

TP

By the way if you want some deep reading try the Sutras. It may give you a back door way to increase your bottom time. Check Samadhi Pada #19. It warns about becoming one with your environment. I realized I was in trouble when we were dropping mackrel palu (chum) out in blue water one day and all I could think of as the bait fell away was "why are we throwing away perfectly good snacks?"

 

[Fondueset]

It's worth noting theres more than one way to chase the cat up the flagpole - re interpreting the Yoga Sutras It can, for example, be cast more in the light of a reductive 'arrival' than an attainment - the distinction being one of affinity and functional valence re time, place and person.

I also want to mention that the kundalini phenomena being elaborated here do not necessarily arise from pranayama practice. The friend I mentioned earlier had no experience with Pranayam or Yoga for that matter - she described the initial experience - relative to breathing - as 'like being in an iron lung'. Likewise there are many people who practice pranayam to varying degress with no such effects. I've had moments of 'being breathed' as well as the sense that the breath was not moving through the nose or mouth - but a direct radiance/exchange through the solar plexus.

Patanjali appears to uphold a radical distinction between nature and the soul - I've been meaning to get back in there and see if I can find some cracks

What environment?

 

[bluh2o]

Yes, I see what you mean. These things happen to you as much as you make them happen. The idea that if I practice this that and the other thing a little harder and a little more doesn't neccessarily lock me into releasing Kundalini or reaching an eight minute static. Part attainment (if you're applying yourself) part reductive arrival. (thanks for the new words in that last post Fondueset) Wish the water would clear up, my soul's getting dry and itchy.

 

[OceanSwimmer]

When you're talking about 8:32:16 ratio, does it mean 8" inspiration, 32" hold, 16" expiration ?

Fabrice

I'd like to know the answer to this question as well!.....Gentlemen?

 

[efattah]

Yes, 8:32:16 = inhale for 8 seconds, hold for 32 seconds, exhale for 16 seconds. It is important to know that during inhalation and exhalation, the diaphragm must do the work. If you use the mouth or throat to 'pinch' the air flow (thus regulating the speed), then you will derive little or no benefit from the exercise.

As an example of this, if you hold your breath until you get contractions, and then begin a very slow exhale, using the diaphragm as the controller of flow, then you will never get any contractions during the exhale, no matter if you were getting contractions once per second during the hold.

On the other hand, if you pinch the airflow with your throat or mouth, and then do the same slow exhale, you'll get contractions during the exhale (an indicator of incorrect technique).

 

[OceanSwimmer]

Thank you !

 

[L K Tucker]

You may be interested in a site that explains the cause of mental events associated with Kundalini Yoga.

This will have little to do with free diving.

It would only happen if you undertook many Kundalini Yoga sessions in a compact time frame.

Long time users of Qi Gong and Kundalini Yoga demonstrate a severely altered mental state. They believe they possess superhuman powers. This includes the ability to levitate, dematerialize, move objects with thought, communicate and direct the actions of others with their minds, (mental telepathy).

http://VisionAndPsychosis.Net Qi Gong and Kundalini Yoga psychotic episodes pages.

Case histories from China say that Qi Gong users will not stop gathering others to exercise with them even though they face arrest and possible torture.

This apparent addiction is the same phenomenon that caused the Everquest Addiction episode in the United States in 2001. (Everquest Connection site page.)

 

[gerard]

You may be interested in a site that explains the cause of mental events associated with Kundalini Yoga.

This will have little to do with free diving.

It would only happen if you undertook many Kundalini Yoga sessions in a compact time frame.

Long time users of Qi Gong and Kundalini Yoga demonstrate a severely altered mental state. They believe they possess superhuman powers. This includes the ability to levitate, dematerialize, move objects with thought, communicate and direct the actions of others with their minds, (mental telepathy).

http://VisionAndPsychosis.Net Qi Gong and Kundalini Yoga psychotic episodes pages.

Case histories from China say that Qi Gong users will not stop gathering others to exercise with them even though they face arrest and possible torture.

This apparent addiction is the same phenomenon that caused the Everquest Addiction episode in the United States in 2001. (Everquest Connection site page.)

Hello,

A knowledgeable master told me this once:

First let me say that in any study of qigong (or yoga, martial arts, etc.) no book will be able to address all of the issues that may pop up along the way. This is the primary reason that personal instruction is so important if you want to take these arts to an advanced level. It's always so much easier to correct problems when they are small rather than to practice incorrectly for years only to have to unlearn everything once you do find an instructor, or worse, find out that you've unknowingly created a problem for yourself along the way.

That being said, I like the specificity of the detailed approach that emphasizes correct form. This increases the chances of getting great benefit from the exercises. I would always begin by focusing on the physical blockages and correct form will facilitate this. Since all yoga, including qigong, works to release energy blockages, generally speaking this shouldn't create problems, particularly if focusing on the physical opening.

Generally speaking, the people who tend to run into problems are those who fail to address underlying mental and emotional issues before going on to advanced studies.

I also like the concept of including visualizations in the process to guide your experience of the various exercises. This is a dimension that some teachers don't emphasize, but can be helpful in accessing deeper states. The only problem in this is that you may respond better to a different visualization, or perhaps to a more kinesthetic approach. Again, a teacher will be able to adjust for your specific needs in this way.

Finally, I think you can expect only limited results from any written materials you use for reference until you have a solid foundation built that will provide you the basic inner awareness to know what is correct for you.


I know this is a freediving forum, however as some people in here include internal cultivation techniques as a means of assisting freediving training, they must be aware of the potential dangers of including them without qualified supervision.


Some useful links that will be of assistance are (only Yoga):

http://www.yoga-age.com/modern/asanas.html

http://sivasakti.com/

http://colveyco.com/gallery-annex/yoga/yoga.html

 

[immerlustig]

hi, i have one question here :

i heard warnings to not practise some techniques without proper instruction a few times already. especially with pranayama breathing. now i wonder what these dangers really are. if i cannot reach an advanced level without proper instruction how much in danger can i put myself in? and if i seek proper guidance then isn't my advancement going to be a lot faster, exposing me to these dangers even earlier? i'm not trying to be sarcastic here, so please forgive my ignorance.

some of the symptoms described here seem rather unpleasent, like negative side effects to a medication one doesn't react to very well . do the beneficial effects outweigh the side effects?

cheers

roland

 

[Fondueset]

This cautionary stuff has come up here more than a few times. Gerard is correct in that engaging methodologies that heighten energy can tend to amplify pathologies.

However excessive emphasis on how 'dangerous' everything is only heightens self-consciousness and discourages people from trying.

One aspect of both qigong and pranayama is purification - the release of toxins and obstructions of various kinds. The process tends to go from physical to psychological.

Practices also can simply increase energy - if such methods are employed mechanically - without some degree of objectivity and intelligent self-observation - but with considerable force - then there can be negative effects as the energy is simply channelled into existing patterns.

For example: At a workshop we were practicing Kapalabhati Pranayama. One woman complained that the practice was making her feel horrible. As it happens whe was suffering from Lime Disease which was in it's active phase at that time. Kapalabhati enhances the immune system but engaging it during an active illness is counterproductive and creates more stress on the organism. In her case a less forceful - soothing pranayam was indicated.

In Yoga we have a term 'vinyasa krama' - which means to proceed intelligently in steps. So - start at the begining, build capacity for practice and awareness together and gradually. Be consistent, attentive and observant from the begining.

Placing emphasis on States, spiritually speaking, MAY be useful insofar as they can highlight what they are not. Emphasizing the development of powers and so forth is also not the point. To the extent such orientations are true they may be employed in the context of comprehensive traditions and adapted to the needs of individual practitioners with a clear sense of purpose and perspective.

Before someone launches off on some great list of potential personal catastrophies - or attempts to 'explain it all' it terms of some fragementary shard -
let me conclude with this:

Vinyasa Krama - start at the begining - proceed gradually - ask for help when you need it.

 

[gerard]

This cautionary stuff has come up here more than a few times. Gerard is correct in that engaging methodologies that heighten energy can tend to amplify pathologies.

However excessive emphasis on how 'dangerous' everything is only heightens self-consciousness and discourages people from trying.

One aspect of both qigong and pranayama is purification - the release of toxins and obstructions of various kinds. The process tends to go from physical to psychological.

and spiritual, hence liberating karmic imprints from previous lives which if not dealt under close supervision of someone experienced in the subject could lead to... I leave this open because I don't know as I don't have enough experience on the subject. A really experienced medical Taoist I know of told me about this stuff.

Practices also can simply increase energy - if such methods are employed mechanically - without some degree of objectivity and intelligent self-observation - but with considerable force - then there can be negative effects as the energy is simply channelled into existing patterns.

For example: At a workshop we were practicing Kapalabhati Pranayama. One woman complained that the practice was making her feel horrible. As it happens whe was suffering from Lime Disease which was in it's active phase at that time. Kapalabhati enhances the immune system but engaging it during an active illness is counterproductive and creates more stress on the organism. In her case a less forceful - soothing pranayam was indicated.

In Yoga we have a term 'vinyasa krama' - which means to proceed intelligently in steps. So - start at the begining, build capacity for practice and awareness together and gradually. Be consistent, attentive and observant from the begining.

Placing emphasis on States, spiritually speaking, MAY be useful insofar as they can highlight what they are not. Emphasizing the development of powers and so forth is also not the point. To the extent such orientations are true they may be employed in the context of comprehensive traditions and adapted to the needs of individual practitioners with a clear sense of purpose and perspective.

Before someone launches off on some great list of potential personal catastrophies - or attempts to 'explain it all' it terms of some fragementary shard -
let me conclude with this:

Vinyasa Krama - start at the begining - proceed gradually - ask for help when you need it.

Agree

Take care.

 

[immerlustig]

fondueset

thanks for your reply. i appreciate it.

roland

 

[bluh2o]

To add to Fondueset's last post, The practice of Pranayama in yoga is preceded by something like a moral code of ethics (yamas and niyamas) or restraints and observances. I haven't really established much of a disciplined breathing practice but as I've come along in the practice of Asana (poses) I have noticed a great increase in energy which has a tendency to get out of control if I'm not careful. Having more energy is exciting but controlling it isn't easy. Simple example; it adds more to your diving but also more to your frustrations, arguements, fights etc. After a scene with an employee, wife or road hog you may sit back and go, whoops, Remembering the code of non-violence might have helped just then. Working my way through these little examples makes me cautious about handling a deep pranayama regimen. I can see where the wild reports of psychotic symptoms during pranayama and Kundalini release come from. Practicing diving is one thing, Pranayam and Qi-gong (?) another.

"Step into the water and you're gonna get wet."