2014 lunocet

[Ted Ciamillo]

Hello Alan,

I am very sorry for the problems and your order being over looked. I have no excuse but being a bit disorganized with the project. I do get a lot of emails so send me an email with "Urgent" in the title and I will take care of you right away. Again, Iam very sorry for any inconvenience and for overlooking your order.

Thanks,

Ted

 

[AlanBlake]

Thankyou ted for your email just now offering 2 units to make up for the delays. I look forward to getting the tracking number later today.

 

[neurodoc]

I ordered and paid for a lunocet almost 2 years ago. (feb 2012) I paid Terrell Ciamillo $673.98 USD. I have had nothing but promises.
I have asked for a refund. I even tried to recover my money from paypal and mastercard but as I had left disputing this more than 90 days they wont assist.
Has anyone had a good experience dealing with Ted? Anyone actually received a lunocet?

Yes, Alan-he answers my texts and phone calls, and shipped a fin to me which I now have. I would try texting him at the phone number on his website, or just call it during business hours. He does respond-though I have no idea how your issue came to be.
edit: I see Ted already responded here. Great!

 

[neurodoc]

Ola, Uberman. Rather like this, then?

Fondueset, you provide a great example of smooth technique. Looks really good!

 

[neurodoc]

Here is a short clip of me swimming with the Lunocet. I had only done a few laps with it and definitely still getting the feel for it. I was trying some faster cadence kick and short glide. Every time I swim with the fin it feels better to me. This morning's swim I was able to go faster and smoother, and with better technique as my arms did not stay together on this clip. I thought using cycling shoes would take some getting used to, but not having my feet compressed, blistered, red and numb apparently is easy to get used to! The lunocet does not accelerate the same way as my #5 carbon glide, yet acceleration is good when using a few quick strokes (not shown in this video.) It is very different, as there isn't nearly as much resistance to push against, stroking is much easier, and yet the speed happens deceptively easily. I am loving this fin.

 

[Ben H]

Here is a short clip of me swimming with the Lunocet. I had only done a few laps with it and definitely still getting the feel for it. I was trying some faster cadence kick and short glide. Every time I swim with the fin it feels better to me. This morning's swim I was able to go faster and smoother, and with better technique as my arms did not stay together on this clip. I thought using cycling shoes would take some getting used to, but not having my feet compressed, blistered, red and numb apparently is easy to get used to! The lunocet does not accelerate the same way as my #5 carbon glide, yet acceleration is good when using a few quick strokes (not shown in this video.) It is very different, as there isn't nearly as much resistance to push against, stroking is much easier, and yet the speed happens deceptively easily. I am loving this fin.

Looking at this video I can see the thrust is in the downstroke and that is something I am going to be concentrating on regarding the lunocet technique. I agree Doc that the cycling shoes get over many problems and it is amazing that one doesn't feel like they have anything on their feet especially the first few times getting in the pool!!! It is slightly more negatively buoyant compared to the glidefin. I am sure it will become apparent soon that this fin is using less oxygen! Less perceived effort. We need to address the free diving potential totally separately to fin swimming potential. I know we are all only just trying this new fin for the first few goes. I feel it is going to be very interesting indeed. The more videos the better!!!!!!

 

[Kars]

Ben H, when you focus on downstroke, it helps to direct your body with the following thought: straiten legs, rotate hips forward, and push the ass upwards. (instead of pushing the fin downward). This really helps with the hydrodynamics. Love to see the before and after shots and stories.

 

[neurodoc]

Kars, I will try to remember that on my next swim. It is somewhat challenging to maintain proper body awareness while swimming, and this should help. I imagine that a good skinsuit would help too as far as hydrodynamics as I have a lot of body hair. Too much to shave or wax it all ;-) I do need to get a good skinsuit so I can see the difference in glide that makes as well. It is relevant as far as comparing my glide with other videos, as I do not glide well for both reasons.

 

[Kars]

Suit, hair or not, pushing the ass up instead of the feet down makes a world of difference, - you'll feel that better without a suit, especially when you feel the skin on your shoulders vibrating in the high-speeds you'll be able to hit. (Or when your fluffy shorts drop on your ankles )

Actually I find mono-finning really challenging to master, and I've been trying for years. The difficulty lies in the timing, movements are very closely linked and if performed out of sync or order will feel like swimming through oil, when things line up it feels like flying without effort.

 

[Fondueset]

Suit, hair or not, pushing the ass up instead of the feet down makes a world of difference, - you'll feel that better without a suit, especially when you feel the skin on your shoulders vibrating in the high-speeds you'll be able to hit. (Or when your fluffy shorts drop on your ankles )

Actually I find mono-finning really challenging to master, and I've been trying for years. The difficulty lies in the timing, movements are very closely linked and if performed out of sync or order will feel like swimming through oil, when things line up it feels like flying without effort.

I agree with Kars - When I finally started to 'get it' mono fin technique wise - it was because Pete Scott told to practice on the surface - keeping my hands level and lifting my rear out of the water with straight knees. This kicks the movement into your spine and hips. FYI - you should also be getting thrust on the upstroke - then it becomes more of a flow - instead of stops and starts.

For now - focus on the technique above and see what happens - the suit is not a radical difference regardless.

 

[neurodoc]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice, Fondueset and Kars. I too have found it to be challenging in a fun and relaxing way, life-changing really. I am looking forward to comparing my current Lunocet fin set-up with one using the new freedive-specific flukes that Ted has promised. It is fun to learn a new fin!

 

[Ben H]

I agree with Kars - When I finally started to 'get it' mono fin technique wise - it was because Pete Scott told to practice on the surface - keeping my hands level and lifting my rear out of the water with straight knees. This kicks the movement into your spine and hips. FYI - you should also be getting thrust on the upstroke - then it becomes more of a flow - instead of stops and starts.

For now - focus on the technique above and see what happens - the suit is not a radical difference regardless.

Sorry guys the technique for the lunocet can't be anything similar to the traditional monofin!!! Completely different modes of propulsion. Stick the dolphins's tail on a mantee is what you are implying!!! Can't be the same body movement!!!!! I would have already at this stage of the week be working on this and filming it too but I am ill and can't get back in the water until next Monday. I would advise people to study the swimming of dolphins and don't apply the same technique.

Dolphin hydrofoil propulsion.

Manatee sine wave propulsion.


How can the same technique apply to both???????????????

Shame I can't get off the beach sooner!!!!

Good evening Gentlemen!

 

[neurodoc]

The true test will be in the water! you do make some good points, Ben. I find the Lunocet responds well to a faster cadence in a relaxed stroke. It is more of a hydrofoil than the traditional monofins, so your explanation would make sense. I think that what we do with our bodies to accomplish that may not look too different except perhaps in kick frequency and glide ratio. How the fin works is certainly different, but what are you recommending differently as to the movements of the human half of this process?

 

[Ben H]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice, Fondueset and Kars. I too have found it to be challenging in a fun and relaxing way, life-changing really. I am looking forward to comparing my current Lunocet fin set-up with one using the new freedive-specific flukes that Ted has promised. It is fun to learn a new fin!

The free dive specific are also known as the fin swimming specific!!! It is going to be great having a smaller and larger set!!!

 

[Ben H]

The true test will be in the water! you do make some good points, Ben. I find the Lunocet responds well to a faster cadence in a relaxed stroke. It is more of a hydrofoil than the traditional monofins, so your explanation would make sense. I think that what we do with our bodies to accomplish that may not look too different except perhaps in kick frequency and glide ratio. How the fin works is certainly different, but what are you recommending differently as to the movements of the human half of this process?

Thanks for your comments! I will have a play with what I am thinking and put it on video! Then you can all laugh or it might be helpful to us!!!!

 

[Fondueset]

Thanks for your comments! I will have a play with what I am thinking and put it on video! Then you can all laugh or it might be helpful to us!!!!

I am not sure what the diagrams are for - The two diagrams you've posted are completely different. One shows the angle of a foil as it moves through an undulation, the other shows a sign wave - they don't represent any kind of contrast. The foil also makes a sine wave as it moves through the water - as does a hyperfin. The difference is that the hyperfin stores and releases energy - though it can also partially act as a foil (converting up and down motion into rearward thrust)as it changes angle across the amplitude of the stroke. The theoretical advantage of the pure foil is reduced drag.

I disagree that the techniques are radically different. My experiments with the Dol-fin - which is also a foil-based fin - have shown that it responds best to what is essentially a classic mono fin stroke with a few modifications - such as increased ankle movement (which can be employed in lieu of greater over all amplitude) I have videos of this posted on another thread and on my youtube account.

You can see in the video below that the shape changes of the body as it moves through the water also help generate thrust - Here I do an easy 20 sec 25 yard swim dolphin kicking. The technique is the same one I use with hyperfin or foil - with variances in amplitude and frequency and how much I allow my knees to bend. You can see my knees bend naturally on the downstroke - but remain straight on the upstroke.

The body moves to convert the direction of thrust across amplitude into forward motion - some thrust is even generated on the upstroke (obviously MUCH more with either fin).

I do not intentionally bend my knees. With the mono fin and foil I resist knee-bend on the downstroke and shift the movement into spine and hips - too much knee bend with either increases drag and, in the case of a foil-based fin - loses thrust. ( a potential advantage of the foil is cleaner thrust across a smaller amplitude - but this also means higher frequency - at least so far - which may or may not be energy efficient)

My amplitude is large here because I am intentionally practicing for flexibility and because I am swimming relatively slowly. The object is energy efficiency - the no-fin dol-fin kick is naturally fast - but it is not energy efficient. Freedivers are concerned with energy efficiency. This is why mere speed is not a good measure of the performance of these devices.

 

[neurodoc]

Fondueset that is a really good demonstration of dolphin kicking. It would make sense that the fin movement is going to be somewhat sinusoidal regardless of the type of fin, as it moves up and down while translating forward. My brief experience with the Lunocet so far makes me think that it responds well to higher frequency kicking with lower amplitude, something that I believe can be done with good efficiency if practiced enough. Here is another video clip, where I am trying out a slightly faster yet somewhat relaxed cadence, with lower amplitude. It really did not feel like much of an effort. I did not have my weight collar on this day, evidenced by my swimming with head down and feet higher. It is more visible on this video than the previous one.

 

[Fondueset]

Fondueset that is a really good demonstration of dolphin kicking. It would make sense that the fin movement is going to be somewhat sinusoidal regardless of the type of fin, as it moves up and down while translating forward. My brief experience with the Lunocet so far makes me think that it responds well to higher frequency kicking with lower amplitude, something that I believe can be done with good efficiency if practiced enough. Here is another video clip, where I am trying out a slightly faster yet somewhat relaxed cadence, with lower amplitude. It really did not feel like much of an effort. I did not have my weight collar on this day, evidenced by my swimming with head down and feet higher. It is more visible on this video than the previous one.

Hi Neurodoc - the measure will be in how you feel after two more of those - and what sort of interval you need to sustain them. For example - I can easily do the above no fins Dolphin kick twice, with a short interval between (or one 50) - the next one, however, needs around 40 seconds to recover and I can more or less sustain at that pace. With the hyperfin the intervals can be much, much shorter.

 

[Kars]

Ok, let's think of a way to measure efficiency.
With novices I give them the challenge to see how they get until their first contraction. Off cause this is under influence of many factors. Maybe contractions are not the best measurement tool?
So we need to make sure the preparation is the same, as well as our focus. Dropping a small object to mark the first contraction can be done. Also doing a series of fixed interval dives may show accumulative efficiency. A coach is needed to record all the data, so the diver can focus on efficient swimming. Then we need people with good levels of technique with all types of fins. Now it starts to sounds like a club exploration, science effort. Perhaps Ted, Ron, Alex, Bogdan, Dave, Alexey, Mikko, Fattah etc can chime in to help to work out a testing routine/protocol to test fins for efficiency?

 

[Fondueset]

Ok, let's think of a way to measure efficiency.
With novices I give them the challenge to see how they get until their first contraction. Off cause this is under influence of many factors. Maybe contractions are not the best measurement tool?
So we need to make sure the preparation is the same, as well as our focus. Dropping a small object to mark the first contraction can be done. Also doing a series of fixed interval dives may show accumulative efficiency. A coach is needed to record all the data, so the diver can focus on efficient swimming. Then we need people with good levels of technique with all types of fins. Now it starts to sounds like a club exploration, science effort. Perhaps Ted, Ron, Alex, Bogdan, Dave, Alexey, Mikko, Fattah etc can chime in to help to work out a testing routine/protocol to test fins for efficiency?

Hi Kars,
I have an opinion! (big surprise) If we are measuring relative efficiency - relative to say the current standard for freediving fins - a hyperfin - then the person testing matters. I agree they should have experience with a legacy fin and an awareness of their conditioning. I don't say I am the perfect tester - but this is the basis of my testing protocol. Since I work out in the pool every day I have a very good baseline of my fitness level.

So, when I strap on the Orca and swim 75 yards I am more or less able to gauge my effort and how I feel at the end of the swim relative to my Starfin. I also have a watch that measures my time underwater so I can compare times.

Of course - to make it fair I have to spend quite a bit of time with the fin I am not accustomed too - work out the best variations of technique - network with others who are using it, etc. You and I know how long it takes to get decent chops with a hyperfin - with that experience it takes less time to acclimate to a new fin that uses similar technique, but still it does take time.

Beyond that it is a matter of this experienced person doing what they do with both fins and noticing the differences. For example - I know that I can do about 5 25 yard swims with one breath between at around a 20 second pace with my hyperfin. At the end of those 5 I know exactly how miserable I expect to be. Likewise 75s. If I give myself 60 seconds between them and do a moderate pace of around 1:17 I know how I'll feel. I think it is not so much a matter of what the protocol is - as it is the person doing it. Sometimes I switch back and forth quickly between the fins as I notice new things.It is time consuming and I have been fortunate to be able to use the pool when it is empty. I now have a good idea of the relative performance of the model fin I am testing.

Obviously this process is much easier and faster with fins that are widely different in performance.

A good option maybe for you guys is to test it against a pair of freediving fins. Dave Mullins did this with an earlier iteration of the Lunocet and was able to give a pretty good idea. That said - If I had evaluated my Waterway Nemo (first mono fin) based on the first 50 or 100 (maybe more!!) dives I would've said my bifins were more efficient.