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Why are speartips tri cut?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Mark Lamont

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Sep 30, 2010
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This is a simple one...........I've asked this for as many years as I've been diving and never had a good answer. Yes, I've had answers but not empirical. I've never had anyone set up a test and measure the force required to penetrate. I've never had anyone tell me tricuts are better because ......... I've never had anyone go through the pros and cons.
Pradanovich has tri cuts on all of his spearheads but then his best buddy Wally Potts used a pointed tip. Riffe swore by a tri cut but couldn't tell me why. Scubapro had both a three wing head and a rock tip with 4 facets in the head.
Any takers?? I'm sure willing to look the pros and cons of any design.
 
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I also would like to see a scientific test. But I can offer this as emperical evidence that tri-cut tips penetrate better (or with less energy) than conical points:

If you google broadhead arrow points for bow hunting, you will find few (if any) with conical points. They come in a zillion styles, but the one thing that they have in common is a sharp cutting edge that goes right to the very point. The styles with replaceable blades and tips always seem to have tri cut tips. These guys aren't worried about durability, as they would gladly sacrifice an arrow point to ensure good penetration and a killing shot on a once-in-a-lifetime animal. We ask our spears to survive many more impacts, against rocks and such, so I think we balance penetration with durability.
 
Arrowheads are a good comparison for penetration and bleeding of the animal. Thanks. That would also mean that we should do the same and put broadheads on shafts at least for openwater hunting but the difference is that one can track a bleeding animal and not lose it often. In the case of hunting fish we have to have a hook tied to the fish in the manner of barbs like whalers that hold the animal by means of a line. If the hook falls out then we usually will lose the prey. If we cut the animal too much on the entry wound then the wings may fall out of the fish.
Therefore is a cutting head better than.........lets say an ice pick style that leaves a puncture wound entry?
The tri cuts are not exactly broadheads in that they are not like true knife tips because of their flat intersecting surfaces but will penetrate and cut into the flesh.
 
. . .That would also mean that we should do the same and put broadheads on shafts . . .

I'm not suggest that at all, as there are obviously lots of differences between spearguns and bows. We don't use fletching on our spears, etc, etc. I am just suggesting that the dynamics of the actual penetration at the point of entry may be similar.

. If we cut the animal too much on the entry wound then the wings may fall out of the fish.

Maybe. Every design is a compromise between competing parameters. A truly "cut" vs. a "punctured" wound may be more prone to tear in some cases. But if the energy required to for a cutting tip to penetrate all the way through the fish is lower, than we may sometimes toggle on the backside, instead of inside the fish, which would generally be preferable. But this is only speculating on my part, and you asked for evidence, which I don't really have.

The tri cuts are not exactly broadheads in that they are not like true knife tips because of their flat intersecting surfaces but will penetrate and cut into the flesh.

My tri-cut tips mya be closer to "sharp cutting edges" than typical points. I use Muzzy hollow ground bowfishing tips on my spears. I like that I can replace a blunted tip with a VERY sharp new on on the boat with just a pair of pliers in about 30 seconds. They seem to work better to me. I feel like they penetrate a little better than pencil points, and are especially effective at digging in when the shot is at a very acute angle and a pencil point may just glance off the side. I hunt in poor visibility, and sometimes a quick, nearly head-on shot is all you get.


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I looked up broadheads last night and I think what you do for your tips is great. Being able to make a quick change tip is sharp. The hollow cut is much better than the traditional flat cut. It makes me think that by simply threading the shaft and using one of the thousands of arrow tips available may be a better option on many types of fish.
My tip is a Riffe that I had machined removing the tri cuts completely leaving a male threaded post. I made and screw on my ice pick. (Jay was not open to ideas at the time and didn't want anything to do with it when I asked him to make a few for me. Thanks Jay.)
In my case, I want the spear to enter a small untorn entry wound and toggle around a bone preferably. I do not use a slip tip thinking this is helping the fish in his fight. Water being a more dense fluid, I want the shaft to be sticking out (miles if it were possible) at right angles to the fishes direction of flight causing as much drag as possible. My slider is sitting at the end of my nice smooth round shaft not cutting into the flesh and the fish has the disadvantage of the drag of the shaft to swim against and me additionally pulling on the end of it causing him to swim in circles.
Anyway, thanks for the information on arrow heads. I should have thought of that myself. Bow hunting runs in the family.​
 
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I looked up broadheads last night and I think what you do for your tips is great. The hollow cut is much better than the traditional flat cut. It still makes me think that by simply threading the shaft and using one of the thousands of arrow tips available may be a better option.​

The tips that I use are identical to the ones used on broadhead arrows, except that the bowfishing tips are larger in diameter. Broadhead tips are about 9/32" OD, and fit a #12-28 thread. Bowfishing tips are 5/16" OD and fit a 1/4"-28 thread. Both are hollow ground.
 
I use a mini tri edge on my sliptips and a very sharp conical point on my Calico bass guns as it leaves a smaller wound with little tearing.

I have looked at my wound exits images from my early Tri cut days, many have large skin tears on the same vectors as the tri cutting edge as compared to my kills with more conical shaped tips which have very small untorn wounds and less damaged flesh. I have found the conical tips displace the flesh as the tip wedges the meat out of the day. My old 3/8 tritips cut a path through and than the wounds enlarged as the fish fought, damaging surrounding tissue and meat. My scanner is down sorry no posted images.

Cheers, Don
 
Yes Don, I think that is what originally got into the ice pick theory. It may take more to get into the fish but that was never my specific problem. Hating to lose even one fish, I have found that tearing the flesh while fighting a fish more disturbing than the force required to penetrate.
I've looked at old hero photos of my catch and others and in the same photo the differences in entry wounds is amazing.
I really like the screw on bow tip idea that Tin Man sent and will pursue that in the future. Since I don't have either available to me here in Vallarta it's at this point moot.
I still see that the breakaway is popular and that also is disturbing from a conservation point. The sawing of the cable on the fish is effective for butchering.
Please send me a photo of what you use. You're pretty meticulous.
 
simple ...... in what I have understood the points tricut give greater penetration and are not so easy to dent if you catch on reefs, I do not need much power to penetrate the pieces we fish
 
Actually, I find that a pencil point will hold up a little better against rocks than a tri-cut. One of the nice parts about using the bowfishing tips is that you can easily change tips if you want to.

Also, the tips are quite a bit harder than a typical stainless spear shaft. I think that a 17-4 stainless shaft is usually around 40 Rc (Rockwell "C" hardness scale). I don't know about the tricut tips, but the "Jackhammer" tips from Cajun Archery (similar to the point on the left below) are 50 Rc hardness.
 

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So in recapitulation, it boils down to cutting the flesh or "displacing the meat" as Don P put it. I also have looked at a lot of my old photos and have seen similar fish with huge exit wounds on my buddies fish (not withstanding gut shots) and small entry/exit wounds on my fish. Don also makes a good point about the power of the gun used. It would make sense that on a small shaft size gun, the ability to penetrate is going to be reduced and therefore a cutting point my be more desirable.
In my case I have been using a 5/16 diameter on a 54 or 60 inch shaft for such a long time that the arrow weight penetration ability has never been a problem. On my "pea shooter" with a 1/4 inch diameter 48 inch shaft it is more logical to look for every advantage to improve the penetration power and flight distance. That being said I will admit that I have been using an ice pick point on the pea shooter also.
This thread has evoked another question: Why do we not standardize the signature of a gun by its shaft length and diameter like is done with a rifle or gun? The standard definition of a gun or rifle related to mass of the bullet. I'm noticing more and more that the gun barrel length is the measure used. With all of the different types of rubbers and shaft diameters and lengths it seems to me that we do not compare apples to apples in regards to killing potential. Anyone up for this?
 
Interesting conversation.

looking at the different tips commercially available in spearfishing i've found the following for the species we shoot in North queensland.

- tricut is the preferred option mainly because many of our fish heavy very big heavy scales and pencil points do not penetrate easily on these fish unless your shot is perfect.
- shots taken on the angle are far more likely to penetrate with a try cut.
- we also have the luxury of the South African Spring steel shafts being popular here which are extremely hard at 50rockwells so breaking a tip is almost unhurd of but does occasionally happen.

i do agree that a pencil point is better suited to fish with softer flesh and smooth skin like mackerel for example and would be of benefit in that style of hunting.

DD
 
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you're right the pencil point are more recistente to rocks, but the material of which used as regular shaft ( riffe style and other mark was the hardest tricut RA.

now try to have the best shot possible and no damage the tip of the shaft, but use a lot of tricut...

thks
tony 15
 
My thoughts on tri-cut tips are that it is relatively easy to grind three flats on a spear tip, once you have mastered the art of re-grinding a tip and not your fingers. Ideally you want the intersecting point in the centre, so the flats have to be three equal-sized triangles. A dual grind tip would be a chisel point, not what we really want (unless as a flat fish backbone breaker)! An even quad grind tip is a bit harder to do by hand, so mistakes whittle down the length of the tip forwards of the flopper hole. Plus too many leading sharp edges decrease the contact pressure on each edge, like the "lying on a bed of nails" trick, but a lot depends on shot incidence angle as not all edges come into contract with the victim instantaneously.

In the fifties and sixties there were all sorts of screw-on removable speartips, "Cutlass" tips like a broad head arrow and the well known original "Mako" with a quad-shaped cast steel head ground to provide four cutting edges with a recessed valley between each of the edges. There were also pyramidal heads with four triangular flats, grinding to re-sharpen them meant that you ended up with a "bent pyramid" as you had to change the angle of the flats or end up with no head left after only a few grinds. Fishing around reefs always exposes the speartips to damage, particularly if you shoot clean through a fish or worse still, miss! These big removable speartips all added to hydrodynamic drag, but fish were generally shot at close range or had the mass of a long 3/8" diameter shaft working as a pile driver behind them. The aim was to kill or cripple the fish immediately rather than secure a hitching point and tire the fish out on the shooting line-tether system (if there even was one). I think that float system tethering has made one of the largest changes to spearfishing as instantly killing (stoning) a very large fish needs a lucky shot or a powerhead on some tough bodied specimens. Powerheads are now not an option and their use has discontinued except for defense against predators (or as a support to one's morale).

Pencil points withstand accidental hits on rocks better and even with the actual point blunted can still be driven through a fish if you are close enough or the gun is powerful enough. From a physics viewpoint the pencil tip concentrates all the initial impact energy at the extreme tip point, but after that the conical body of the tip has to shove meat and scales aside as Don Paul says. The tri-cut has sharp edges that slice like a small knife edge, but the slicing action is limited as the cutting edge is steeply inclined to the surface of the victim. If you lengthen out the taper of the facet grind you can achieve a very sharp tip, but not a very durable one as the cross-section of metal gets very small near or at the tip end. There is more metal in a cone (circular cross-section) than a pyramid (triangle or square cross-section) for the same taper.

Ultimately tri-cuts are a compromise between penetration and durability of the tip and the ease of re-sharpening it, especially as with an integral tip you are working on a shaft and not an expendable tip that can be replaced relatively easily if you are carrying spare tips with you. My fumble fingers have sent more than a few of my spare speartips to Davy Jones' Locker without them being used, especially over a weed strewn bottom, or when I foolishly stuck them in the top of my dive boots and felt water drag the boots open at the top. My wet suit cuffs were already spoken for, car keys in one and the loader for my small spare pneumatic gun in the other.

Adding a grouped speartip photo, from left to right; small tri-cut, Undersee "Mako", Sea Hornet "Mako", later Sea Hornet "Mako", Scubapro tip (both slightly worse for wear) and Lyle Davis conical tip.
 
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Lot's of interesting information has come in regarding this simple question. I guess that the old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans" applies. I have shot lots is heavily scaled fish like Red Snapper for us in Mexico is one of the largest scales that I've seen in North America. I think Dane's comment about shooting an "away" shot or at an angle to get under the scale barrier is very valid. And I definitely don't have a rock background in my type of fishing. I do like the idea of a replaceable tip that is smaller in size for penetration.
Scubapro guns used to come with the Mako style quad cut with a blood trickle valley between each cut. Effectively they were rock tips. I think the idea of sharpening a tip out on a spearfishing trip is non appealing. Truthfully I think I would rather just wait until I got home to change it and would prefer to just plow through the meat if that was the case. I have always applied "stud and bearing" Locktite to every spearhead and tip I have applied. It is easy to remove with a little heat but doesn't fall off or unscrew easily.
Don's comment about displacing the meat or in fact parting the meat and leaving a small entry wound and hopefully exit wound are in my mind the real answer. In open water hunting my real goal is to have all forces fight the fish for me. I want a huge shaft sticking out of the fish perpendicular to its path of escape causing drag on one side. I want a slider at the tail end of the shaft with my line tied to it so I can apply even more drag if needed all in an effort to have the fish swim in circles.
I see photo after photo of breakaway spearheads with the shaft neatly aligned with the fish and wire cable cutting away at the flesh.
I think my next ideas on guns will be using the smallest possible gun on the largest possible fish. In fishing the catch is recorded based on the line size. Maybe one day in our sport we will have records of 50 lb. White Seabass taken on 1/4 x 36 inch shaft. Does this remind any one of the Art Pinder/sailfish story?
 
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go on the kitto site- custom internet spearguns. i believe he has done the scientific tests you were looking for. the tri cut penetrate better, but dull faster than conical -"hence the name "rockpoint" look it up if you want, but you guys have covered it already- i guess, anyway, the data is there i think
 
Art Pinder shot that Sailfish with a Hawaiian Sling, but from what I have read that is all he ever used to spear fish with, so he knew exactly what he could do with it, coupled with his own impressive physical capabilities and extensive in-water experience.
 
so he knew exactly what he could do with it, coupled with his own impressive physical capabilities and extensive in-water experience.


Words of gold... Pete. . Any and all hunting tools harvest game in the hand's of the skilled waterman..... and some times the complete novice on his lucky day.

Cheers, Don
 
My RA railgun's 6.6mm sprung steel spear uses a tri-cut tip & my Omers' 6.3mm stainless steel spears have conical tips. Both work just fine for spearing the modest sized UK fish.

I find it far easier to sharpen the tri-cut spear, as it can be easily done with a flat file and/or flat stone. But I find myself not needing to sharpen the conical tips as often (maybe the stainless steel is harder, it usually seems that way, or perhaps it is just that I am not tempted to sharpen them as often?). OMD said he used a grinder to sharpen his conical tips. To sharpen my conical tipped spears, I tend to use a small, slow, electric-powered water-stone - it runs cool and so should not change the temper of the things I sharpen (knives/spears/axes/chisels).

I would think a tri-cut tip might inflict more damage & be more likely to tear the skin. By the way, I see RA now offer an 3rd type of tip. I expect Rob Allen (or Jeremy) would be able to provide some insights.
 
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...If you google broadhead arrow points for bow hunting, you will find few (if any) with conical points....
That may be true but "broadhead" suggests a non-conical point to me. Conical points are very common in archery but for target shooting, rather than hunting -- presumably because they do less damage and are easy to removed from the target - and safer and easier to handle (some of those razor-sharp hunting tips sold in the USA would need to be handled with care).

[Tri-cut points aren't broad-heads though, obviously.]
 
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