02 / CO2 tables - Effective or a waste of time?

[BennyB]

Hi Pete,

Not sure of the origin, your fellow countrymen could probably help you there. About 2 years ago I was told of a warm up method that was similar - slight exhale and pack 3 times every 15 seconds until you couldn't pack/hold anymore. I think the person who showed me may have learnt it on a PFI.

About a year ago I got onto the IHT bandwagon and after some ideas posted on DB by Seb Murat, I headed down to the gym and did some sets of exhales that went like this:
On a sit down cycle machine I would do 5-10 minutes of reasonably swift pedalling to get the heart rate up. I would then pedal quite hard for about 30 seconds with the machine difficulty set higher then do an exhale/FRC hold with the difficulty set to the lowest setting and peddaling very slowly. These holds would start at about 30 seconds and work up to about 1 minute. I would work on a 2 minute cycle so if it was a 30s hold I would have 1:30 breathup time, 1min hold 1 min breath up etc. After my hold finished I would set the machine up to difficult again and pedal harder, to try and keep the O2 saturation low until the next hold. After a half hour or so of that you really felt it!

I also did some apnea walking sets recently when walking home from work whereby I would walk at a brisk pace and do a normal inhale and walk 20 paces then exhale, inhale and do it again. After a mile and a half it felt like you'd run a marathon and smoked 9 cigarettes along the way! I'm sure these would have kept the O2 saturation nice and low but it would be interesting to measure it.

Cheers,
Ben

 

[fpernett]

Interesting thread Peter.

I agree with many of the posts, I think that tables are a good way to start static training, just that. I don't think you can improve your static only using tables.
As many of you said, willpower and good training can be the key to have consistent performances. In that order of ideas I believe that any warm-up is like a handicap. For example, if you need to do a warm-up that takes 1 hour, and in competition (for any reason) your warm-up time is cut to 30 minutes; you will start your breath-hold with a negative feeling (S#&t I didn't make a proper warm up).
If you train with no warm up, you are always ready for max performance. This is just in theory, it's very hard to do a max attempt on the first try, but is a very good way to train. Because your body is exposed both to high CO2 and low O2 levels. I try to do at least 80% of my PB in every training.

there are somethings that have worked for me:
1) Don't train static all year. My training is mainly maximal dynamics with and without fins, and apnea walking. When I'm approaching a check-up (not so many competitions in my country) start to train maximal static times, I can improve in just 2 weeks of training, or when my partner is a fanatic of static apnea we train once a week.

2) When I have reached a plateau, I change to a "physiological" training. Using a pulse oxymeter, I train dry apneas lowering the threshold every week. For example: 1 week: static until my SpO2 goes to 80%, 2 week: Until 75%, 3 week until 70% and so on. You will notice, specially in dry apneas, that contractions usually appear at relatively normal levels of SpO2. So you know that Oxygen is not the problem.

3)Lung packing: I don't pack for dynamics nor CW, but I do for static, it was a long process, because I hate the feeling in my thorax after a full pack. My bro suggested me to work it out, and now lung packing is the rule when going for max static times.

4)Avoid a protocol: This seems to be in controversy with usual standards, but for ME, a protocol is a way to tell your mind, that everything is going in the right way, but when things go wrong during the protocol, your mind has the idea that the static will go wrong also. Having no protocol, just breathing and going for max , is a way to train the mind to work despite the scenario. It's hard, and slow progress but it worth the effort

5)Good partner: When I train with a good partner, with performances similar to mines, the times get much better

6)No one has the answer, every one has to find the way to better static times.

Just my opinion

 

[laminar]

Awesome post, Frank. Thanks!

4. Avoid a protocol. An interesting piece of advice. A protocol does provide freedivers with a calming ritual to achieve a certain result in a consistent basis. But often that ritual can go wrong, ruining mental focus. Or, the ritual allows the freediver to become complacent and ends up holding them back.

Pete

 

[naiad]

That is interesting. One thing I have found out by doing tables is that I don't need a long and elaborate preparation to do a good static. In a table I can't do most of the things I would normally do, and I have done some of my best long statics in tables.

 

[trux]

Indeed interesting topic, and all the different contributions and experiences posted here seem to show that there are many possible approaches possible - from learning by doing (meaning doing only max attempts), or even learning by not doing (some people apparently avoid training static entirely, and only rely on dynamic and depth), through occasional training, or different types of mixed training, over to regular table drilling.

However, I think it is just like with any sport, or any other human activity. It may happen that you can become a football star by just playing football, become piano virtuoso by just playing piano, become an excellent programmer by just coding. If you are lucky and gifted, it can really happen. Usually having a good teacher and following regular and targeted training is much more usual and faster way to learn it really good. Even the best football players do not train by just playing football.

Exactly in the same way I believe that by selecting adequate apnea exercises you can improve your breath-holds better and faster than just by blind pushing to the max. Most people here seem to agree that it works pretty well for beginners and intermediate freedivers, but I do not see any reason why targeted training would not work for top freedivers too.

Trux, can you share what you group typically does for tables and how many times a week?

Well, I cannot really tell that there is any real concept in the way it works here. As I wrote earlier, we have 3 AIDA and 3 FFESSM instructors in the club, who make their turns in the training. Each of them has a slightly different approach, and we also tend to experiment and try new exercises. We have two wet static sessions a week (each 1h). One is for advanced freedivers; the second one is common with beginners. Occasionally we add also some fun apnea games, or relaxation / sofrology.

Hence, there is barely something what could be called typical, but the session can look for example in this way:

1. After some stretching, we usually begin with 2 or three expiratory apnea - taking a breath and then very slowly releasing it until empty lungs - usually between 1 to 2 minutes each.
2. Then we can do a CO₂ table - ~60% of max with a 120s breath-up decreasing 15s each round, ending with three 15s rounds.
3. Then we may continue with a semi-dynamic table (rounds of breath-up, physical effort, and apnea), or some empty lung exercises (or a semi-dynamic empty lung table)
4. And then we can finish with an O₂ table

trux, this is an interesting topic for discussion. For me the difference between tables is that while doing a CO2 table (long static on short recoveries) is that you experience high C02 but yet don't necessarily spend much time in hypoxia. I think the value in doing max static practice or apnea cycling to max effort, is that if you actually go for max, you experience hypercapnia and hypoxia at the same time, which to me is as specific as you can get. I would suppose is not as specific when you are experiencing only one of the two at a time with tables.

Yes, it is true that the real conditions are closest when you do real max. However, what I meant by intensive and targeted training is that you can train your psychic, reactions, reflexes, and possibly even physiological adaptation by exercises focused to just one of the aspects - i.e. hypercapnia, contractions, hypoxia, relaxation, breath-up, kicking on the diving reflex,... When doing just a max performance, you finally train just very little; when using the same time for focused training dedicated to one or several of the aspects, you can trigger it much faster and for much longer. It is just like what I mentioned above about other activities - i.e. in football (or soccer) you have exercises for drilling passes, other for defence, etc. It wouldn't be efficient enough to just play football during the training.

 

[naiad]

There is something similar to the last part of the crazy tables here...
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?p=416073"]Empty lung static personal best.[/ame]

However, I think it is just like with any sport, or any other human activity. It may happen that you can become a football star by just playing football, become piano virtuoso by just playing piano, become an excellent programmer by just coding. If you are lucky and gifted, it can really happen. Usually having a good teacher and following regular and targeted training is much more usual and faster way to learn it really good. Even the best football players do not train by just playing football.

That is true. I have seen some freedivers who have a great natural ability from the beginning, with no previous sports training. I have seen others whose ability as a beginner was nothing to shout about, but after a few months or even years of training they have become equally good. Even the top freedivers probably have vastly different ways of training.

 

[micael]

Hello, I am a cat among seals here.
I have come across a breathing technique aimed to increase CO2 tolerance. It is called Buteyko breathing.

Buteyko breathing training in short is to breath normal and then lower amplitude or frequency so you establish a slight hunger for air, and maintain this for 20 minutes or more, twice a day. Just using diaphragm breathing and normal or low amplitude breaths. Your CO2 tolerance is measured by the control pause. Control pause is the time you can hold your breath, starting from normal breath and after the holding time resume to normal breath. Breathing should not increase in amplitude or frequency after the hold period or before.

A way to do Buteyko breathing is to do normal breath for say 4 times per minute depending of your ability. As you improve, you lower your frequency, but it is important to do just normal diaphragm breaths. So Buteyko differs some from yours O2 and CO2 tables as I understand it in focusing on normal breathing in stand of maximum breath holding time, and “recover period” is always one breath. Never the less Buteyko works, meaning you can improve your control pause significantly, and it is not painful. If you increase CO2 tolerance you affect both normal breathing and maximum apnoea I would guess.

What do you think of Buteyko breathing for CO2 training? I am also curious of what control pause you have? Finally I am a bit curious if you use the diving reflex during training.

 

[laminar]

Buteyko breathing sounds great for a breath awareness and C02 tolerance building exercise. I'd be curious to know if anyone has used for a long period of time.

We've largely ignored pranayama in this thread. Buteyko breathing sounds a lot like it, but without the measure inhales and exhales.

Does anyone use pranayama as preparation?


Pete

 

[Evita]

My dynamic distance only improves if I do dynamic training, but I have never found anything that produces dramatic results.

I have found a dry training technique that works for dynamic. But I'm not telling seriously though, of course other people have stumbled across it as well, it's not exactly a copyright area. It is basically just a static stomach roll, adapted from a yoga exercise. Helps with monofinning.

I'd be really curious to know of anyone who has set national or world records by relying on tables to advance them to the upper limits of their potential.

I did. It was the reason I started training static. But the record I beat was old and not much to speak of these days, and I haven't reached my potential yet, so clearly it was not near the upper limits. I mainly use the tables to build up routine and confidence, because I mostly train dynamic and view static training as a sideshow to that.

I don't enjoy static tables as such, but I appreciate the benefits. Training tables is sliding now, though, because they take so looong and I am pressured for spare time at the moment. And the higher they get, the more often I have glitches and that's a mental strain. So I am switching from longer series of breathholds (15 sec increase) to shorter series with bigger jumps between the breathhholds (~1 min increase) - more similar to competition warm-up.

Hope this was useful, Pete. Let us know what you arrive at.

 

[naiad]

I just discovered that it is worth doing the training that I like the least. I decided to do some empty lung statics yesterday and bagged myself a nice brace of PBs - 3:00 passive exhale and 2:05 full forced exhale.

Maybe I should have another go at dynamic.

 

[SEDATE]

Micael.,
First time i heard it but sound is good , can you open it a little bit more and what exactly you doin' before a max hold, using buteyko at first__?

 

[sanso]

[...] Do 02 and CO2 tables work for you? More specifically, after being able to complete the tables at a certain threshold did you find your max static time increase as well as expected?

Yes, they do work well for me. I actually went for my latest two PBs at the end of an O2 table by just extending the last hold for as long as I could. The last time this took me from ab PB of 2'45" to a new one of 3'30" (I stopped at 3'30", might have even done more)

[...]How do you feel about doing tables? Are they enjoyable? Do they give you a sense of satisfaction? Or are they a pain, something to do because there doesn't seem to be any other way to improve your time? Or are they torture?

I find tables are an excellent past-time when travelling by train, or in the back of a car, they actually work well in why-am-I-here-meetings as well, but You can't go for a max there, because of the panting
For me, they worked well to get used to and learn how to deal with contractions, and they always take me further than I would have deemed possible. This is a trend that will probably slow down in the future, but for my start with training apnea they make a world of a difference.

[...]When you do a max attempt, do you do a table first, or do you complete a different preparation?

I never deliberately went for a max, but only extended the last hold of my O2-tables as yet..

 

[naiad]

I find tables are an excellent past-time when travelling by train, or in the back of a car, they actually work well in why-am-I-here-meetings as well, but You can't go for a max there, because of the panting

Same with me. Gives a whole new meaning to 'training'...

 

[fcallagy]

Hi Pete,
To go back to what Kurt put forward about fitness being the base surely some people know what their VO2 max is and it would be interesting to see if all people with a good vO2 had great breathholds or wehther there were also some out there that had poor VO2 but still a great breath hold capability. On another thread smokers were mentioned and i think eric fattah mentioned abot some smokers with impressive apnea times but just not able to repeat those times for a while after.
Kurt your tri time is impressive, I started to try tri with a couple of sprint triathlons in the past few years and my fitness level is certainly better than it was before i started freediving and tri. I still plod in the run but am improving slowly i think. I think what attracts me to both sports is that I am content with the fact that I will not be world champion at either but I am constantly racing/performing againest myself.
Started with tables and am back using them again after a break but may try some of these other techniques now.

 

[Ol Dirty Diver]

Since I've only been involved in freediving for a relatively short while, I only just heard about Patrick Musimu and his accomplishment over a year ago (i.e., reaching 209.6m, the deepest any freediver has been). I don't know if he ever revealed much about his training, as he seems intent on being enigmatic to spite all of his critics. From what I gather, though, he performed most of his training dry. In fact, that's one of the main things he bragged about...That one could prepare himself for diving by focusing on land-based preparation. It sounds like an element of this was serious cardiovascular training, particularly lactate threshold or anaerobic training:

(excerpt from an interview on his website):
How can you prepare a deep dive without training in swimming pool?
To keep it short and simple, inside a muscular tissue there is a wide net of capillaries where O2 (carried by the blood) entered the muscles cells. These capillaries are highly compressible. During an exercise their compression will depend on a determined frequency of muscle contraction and the workload. In other words, even breathing, you can have your muscles working without O2 (anaerobe). So why should I swim, train to hold my breath, or do breath holding activities (which I hate by the way)?
Breath holding abilities has a low influence on your (vertical) dive performance. To give you an example, when I prepared my 87m constant ballast dive, I didn't do any breath holding exercises and few days before the record dive, I tested my static time and believe me or not, I had my spasms before 2 minutes and struggled to reach the three. BUT, on the other hand, my training had prepared my muscles for a 3 min 30 sec anaerobic effort. The day of the record, I didn't experience any muscle or cardiac respiratory weaknesses, instead I was so fresh that from 40 meters on my way up, I started greeting the safety divers.

So he seems to lend support to my theory...That a freediver's potential is ultimately limited by his cardiovascular fitness, and thus, that the path to improving apnea performances should involve working on improving cardiovascular fitness (which, fortunately, is limitless).

I do acknowledge, though, that what little he tells us is a drastic oversimplification or concealment of what had to be involved in achieving a tremendous feat like his. His performance is attributed to so many other elements of his preparation (mental, equalization, etc.), many of which are purportedly not yet known by the majority of freedivers.

 

[trux]

Old Dirty Diver, no offence, but could you take these questions to another thread? Look up one with "hyperventilation" or "breath-up" in the title, there are certainly plenty of them in the archive. This thread speaks about hypoxic and hypercapnic tables, and taking a completely different direction here is not really good. Let's stay on-topic.

 

[micael]

Some additional comments on the Buteyko breathing.

First, I notice that there been some discussion whether CO2 tolerance training has any physical effect or if it is just mental. Control pause (CP) is a simple way to measure physical CO2 tolerance without any mental influence. So whatever training technique you are using CP is a possibility to verify your physical CO2 tolerance.

The breathing exercise that I described has both long and short term effects. So it can be used as preparation, relaxation or physical CO2 tolerance training.

CO2 tolerance is controlled by censors connected to the breathing centre in the brain. What training best adjust these processes I don't know. One thing that this breathing technique offers apart from what I earlier described is the possibility to occasional do very long sessions say even for 2 ours. This will present the breathing centre for a moderate increase of CO2 level for a relative long time. One could argue that this could very well be an more effective training than large increase of CO2 for shorter time. But what is best in practise...

Unfortunately I do not have any long time experience to give you and I don´t compete on the level you have around here.

Take it as a suggestion to consider and maybe try out and see if it can make your training more effective. If you do, let me know your results.

 

[5kgLifter]

I know this is an old thread, but still informative.

I do CO2 and O2 tables and improved my time from a base of 40 secs to 3:00 mins (in 5 weeks); so I feel they work. I also do weight training, and cardio, both with elements of apnea and non-apnea incorporated into them throughout the week. Normally, 2 apnea based weights sessions and one normal weights session, and 2 HIIT (Tabata) sessions and 1 apnea based cardio session. I also incorporate apnea walks.

Any new max attempt, is a 9th hold on the apnea table, always to max, unless I've hit a new PB that week in which case I don't necessarily bother going for another. Having only been doing this for a few weeks, it's obviously working; so, until it stops being productive, I will use this technique at least for dry statics.