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200m deep down

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Will Patrick make the 200m barrier?

  • Yes he will, and everything will be ok !!

    Votes: 45 41.3%
  • Yes, but with big problems...

    Votes: 17 15.6%
  • No, he will "chicken out" and cancel the dive.

    Votes: 14 12.8%
  • No, he did a try... but not really.

    Votes: 13 11.9%
  • No, No, No...

    Votes: 20 18.3%

  • Total voters
    109

todeep

New Member
May 1, 2003
3
0
0
The Freediver, Patrick Musimu is going for a record-dive in No Limit the 5th of July 2005, in Red Sea, Egypt. A lot of persons think he is going to make it, but there is also them who think he wont. Soo lets have a poll about it, and see :)
 

quasimoto

New Member
Oct 27, 2004
133
7
0
33
i dont see why he couldnt make it, he must be reaching depths around 200m to be announcing it:) It would be cool to see someone break it, i think
 

watts

small wins
Jun 27, 2004
548
55
118
Anyone know how his training is going for this big attempt? Will Loic then have to go 201?
 

jome

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2004
1,289
200
153
44
I don't think he's been to 200m. His site is very vague about it, but as far as I understood it, he's been to "some depths" of 100+, but during those he has developed some weird wet equalization scheme and feels that once he's mastered that, then 200m won't be a problem.

We'll see. I remain sceptical and just hope he doesn't get hurt. I think that taking the wr up by 30m is a bit cocky to say the least. I mean why not go for 180 or something first?
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
173
I guess I don't really agree with announcing a WR that is 80m more than his personal best.... his best was 120m in variable weight, and according to his website he was very happy to reach 100m again in no-limits....

I don't think he understands how chest squeeze & lung squeeze work. To dive to 200m requires a VERY flexible trachea which is only possible by diving deep a LOT. Loic dives VERY deep ALL YEAR to keep his chest & trachea flexible. The problem and danger is that if Patrick tries to go to the bottom at 200m on the record day (from media pressure), and if his trachea hasn't been prepared in terms of flexibility, then it will rupture and blood will flood his lungs. Then, not only will he be injured, but people will misunderstand, and people will say '200m is beyond the human limit.' In fact, it is definitely possible, with slow, gradual preparation.

Of course, he is not going to invite AIDA, FREE, CMAS or any verification organization....
 

Alun

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2001
763
83
118
none of us know exactly what his personal bests are or how often he dives so there's no point in speculating. don't forget he's a qualified physiotherapist so he probably understands issues regarding pressure adaptation better than most.

good luck to him.... i think he'll do it.
 
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Billextreme

Grand Marshal
Dec 19, 2001
433
33
0
The latest I heard was 135m in training... so I think it will be very hard to make it if he don't train like a "maniac" ...but of course, without rules, maybe he can make it with the old "mayol" exit. :duh
 

pat fish

staying in the blue zone
Feb 19, 2004
285
36
118
47
He is not only flooding sinuses but also his lungs. I should not have told you that secret of his... :ban
 

bolts

New Member
Jun 1, 2004
124
5
0
43
pat fish said:
He is not only flooding sinuses but also his lungs. I should not have told you that secret of his... :ban

Flooding his lungs?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what happens when one drowns?? That seems remarkably dangerous to me... :rcard
 

naiad

Apnea Carp
Supporter
Oct 11, 2003
2,897
449
138
40
pat fish said:
He is not only flooding sinuses but also his lungs. I should not have told you that secret of his... :ban
Seriously?! How?
 

pat fish

staying in the blue zone
Feb 19, 2004
285
36
118
47
I was just making a joke for now. But the topic is well worth looking at. But:

FLOODING OF THE LUNGS WITH ANY KIND OF FLUIDS HAS TO BE CONSIDERED EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. SO DON'T TRY IT AT HOME. :ban

there is several severe problems related with a flooding of the lungs:
-reflexes preventing fluids from getting into the airways
-hypoxia (not taken into account at the aspiration phase)
-hypoxia (decrease in oxygen delivery to vital tissues following a-phase)
-distress/anxiety (at least during aspiration) /effects on nervous system
-rupture of blood cells with to anemia (freshwater) /hypertonia
-pulmonary edema (salt water) /hypotonia
-pulmonary damage and subsequent hypoxemia
-unability to drain the flooded lungs
- etc etc.

The topic might have been discussed by freedivers, specialists and spectators of the film The Abyss. Sorry - I am not aware of any of these discussions. Let me post some thoughts for a lung filled 200m+ dive.

scenario 1:

-the apneist starts his nolimits dive as usual with full inhale/buccal pumping
-flooding of all airfilled spaces at a certain depth, e.g. -130m
(e.g 0.6l remaining airspace at this depth =600ml of seawater in his lungs)
-the apneist descents to -200m+
-he returns to the surface with the lift bags and inflates his
lungs by the use of his own respiratory musculature.
no laryngospasm occurs.
-enough oxygenisation from spontaneous breathing
or - enough oxygen stores remain for the first time (ok sign?)
-artificial respiration has to be applied to him with positive
pressure to provide reoxygenation and prevent drowning
or -the apneist recovers without artificial respiration


scenario 2:

-the apneist starts his nolimits dive with a forced exhale, neg. buccal
pumping followed by an intentional aspiration of 0.9% NaCl to completely fill
the lower airways
(when fluid goggles are fine for WR, why should fluid lungs be?)
-on the way down the apneist floods his upper airways with seawater
-the apneist descents to -200m+
-he returns to the surface with the lift bags and inflates his
lungs by the use of his own respiratory musculature.
no laryngospasm occurs.
-enough oxygenisation from spontaneous breathing
or - enough oxygen stores remain for the first time (ok sign?)
-artificial respiration has to be applied to him with positive
pressure to provide reoxygenation and prevent drowning
or -the apneist recovers without artificial respiration

A total amount of 600ml aspirated seawater may (I don't know it) not be fatal (equals a tolerance of 7.5ml seawater/kg bodyweight) although subsequent damage of the lung tissues may occur. An amount of 600ml isotonic NaCl would at least not damage the tissues. It may have a way better effect on post-dive recovery/reoxygenisation.

The idea of a reduced metabolism allowing to withdraw the O2-stores in the lungs by an intentional aspiration is as follows:
scenario 1: the diver at -130m is already undergoing bloodshift and bradycardia
scenario 2: the phyisiological changes are triggered by a forced exhale.

I consider the following limits to be significant:
- occurance of reflexes/anxiety -->laryngospasm --> high O2 consumption
- hypoxia (no residual O2-stores in the lungs!)
- post-dive recovery/hypoxia/damages to lung tissue
So, both scenarios could end up with an asphyxiated apneist.

Maybe most of you consider me crazy - maybe someone already prepares a 200m+ dive with a certain lungfill technique...

Yours Pat
 
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SanSan

New Member
Apr 22, 2005
320
24
0
41
I heard that there where some succesufl experiments with breathing some oxygen rich fluids but I don't belive it is posible doing it with salt water and at -130...
I forgot where I saw this and I don't remeber what the fluid was, but I do remeber that it took some time for the test subject to get used to the fluid in the lungs. At first it looked like he will choke to death...
And now try doing this at -130m. I don't belive that the lungs would except the salt water first hand and I don't belive it would be a good thing to start coughing so deep.
What i belive its possibele is to start the dive with lungs ful of this 02 rich fluid... I belive that wouldn't be so hard but it also wouldn't count as an official WR. At least not AIDA or other scholls.
Well that's my opinion.
 

Ntrik

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2004
173
15
58
42
You cant casually inhale seawater at -100 no more than you can at -1, even more so for a prescribed quantity of 600ml (?!). Definitely dont see a record on the way using this method. A Darwin Award perhaps..

I consider loading up on Valium and have someone nudge you awake when hitting the 200m mark more realistic. :)
 
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Panos Lianos

New Member
Oct 31, 2004
163
25
0
Guys, what on earth are you talking about?????? "inhaling" sea water??????

This is by far the funniest thing I have read around here :)
 
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Tanya S

New Member
Feb 8, 2005
45
23
0
48
I think that 200m is very possible and maybe a woman will break it!!!! Maybe we should consider narcosis as a very real danger? Tanya suffered from that in her 160m dive at the bottom and it takes a great deal of mental strngth to overcome it.

Paul
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
487
173
Narcosis can, in part, be overcome by diet, but anything that decreases narcosis also increases the chance of a samba. Any substance which blocks your NMDA/AMPA/kainate receptors (in your brain) creates a narcosis effect and also decreases the chance of a samba or seizure. Anything which excites your NMDA/AMPA/kainate receptors decreases narcosis and increases the chance of a samba.

Alcohol = blocks NMDA receptors
Thiocyanate = excites AMPA/kainate receptors (thiocyanate can be found in kale and some cruciferous vegetables)
decaffeinated Green tea = blocks AMPA/kainate receptors

There are many other foods which have these effects as well, such as black pepper.

Of course, training can be used to some extent to prepare oneself for narcosis, and also hyperventilation (by decreasing CO2) decreases narcosis, but once again, hyperventilation increases the risk of samba/BO.

Another risky method to fight narcosis would be to become an alcoholic, and then cut out the alcohol some days before the record attempt. When you constantly drink alcohol, your NMDA receptors are always blocked/inhibited; as a result your body 'upregulates' your NMDA receptors to compensate. Then, when you cut out the alcohol, your brain becomes hyperactive (because the NMDA receptors are upregulated) and you risk seizures (some severe alcoholics can have seizures if they go cold turkey). Theoretically, someone in this alcohol-withdrawal state would be almost immune to narcosis because of hyperactive NMDA receptors.

It is also possible that repeated exposure to extreme narcosis would also upregulate the NMDA receptors, but it would be far more likely to occur with a scuba diver doing a long 'deep-air' dive, rather than a freediver who spends just minutes or seconds in the narked state.
 

Billextreme

Grand Marshal
Dec 19, 2001
433
33
0
...hmmm. the deepest girl in the world, Audrey Mestre didn't have any problem with narcosis when she did her training dive to 168m. She could't feel it on that dive, but she did feel it some day's earlier when she did her dive to 164m. Soo I think it little about the person as well, and what kind of "training status" you are in. Some day's your more "sensitive" I guess...

regards,
Bill
 

pat fish

staying in the blue zone
Feb 19, 2004
285
36
118
47
Any suggestions (or links to sientific papers ) about the amount of seawater and/or NaCl causing significant changes in electrolytes/BP and serious damage to lung tissues? As far as I know, there are wide speculations on that topic. I have heard of amounts of 1-22 ml/kg for water in general. What do you think?

Concerning narcosis in very deep dives: adaption (training effects throu deep apnea dives but also deep air dives just as well as adaptation in hyperbaric chambers) and individual aptitude might have a big effect on the tolerance of nitrogen narcosis.
 

samdive

Mermaid, Musician and Marketer
Nov 12, 2002
3,221
278
173
48
who is training with Patrick for this dive? I know he was trying to recruit a trainer last year but don't know who he ended up using
 

Oligo

New Member
Jan 4, 2005
34
9
0
44
There is a liquid called LiquiVent that is currently undergoing FDA trials to be used in ventilators. It is basically an organic solvent that can absorb large amounts of oxygen and carbon dioxide and thus is capable of donating oxygen to blood and receiving carbon dioxide in alveols. In clinical trials, this liquid has been used to completely fill the lungs of patients, so that there is no gas in their lungs at all, yet they breathe succesfully. Just like in the film Abyss.

(http://www.allp.com/LiquiVent/lv_fact.htm)

I would imagine that if you filled your lungs and airspaces in your head with oxygenated LiquiVent before your depth diving attempt, you could then go down to any depth (limited only by your hypoxia toleance) without any compression of your chest and without the need for any equalization maneuvers. The only problem would be to cough it all out after your dive. :yack
 
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