200m deep down

[DeepThought]

Intersting link. Now that such a thing is in actual clinical trials, we might be close enough to achieve liquid-breathing scuba divers.

I would imagine that if you filled your lungs and airspaces in your head with oxygenated LiquiVent before your depth diving attempt, you could then go down to any depth (limited only by your hypoxia toleance) without any compression of your chest and without the need for any equalization maneuvers. The only problem would be to cough it all out after your dive. :yack

Hmm, I think that another possible problem is that in a few thousand meters depth (hundreds of atmospheres) chemistry might work abit differently regarding your metabolism.

 

[Oligo]

I'm pretty sure that biochemistry in the liquid phase is pretty much unaffected by ambient pressure, since liquids are essentially non-compressible in terrestrial pressures.

However, for a freediver I'm sure the hypoxic limit would be soon coming. If we assume a descent and ascent speed of 1m/s, then the hypoxic limit would be around 240m for a really good apneist (dive time 8 min).

Using LiquiVent in SCUBA still faces some obstacles, mainly the difficulty of achieving sufficient liquid convection in the lungs for the elimination of carbon dioxide. Possible solutions to this have been tossed around (for example inducing cavitation bubbles in the lungs by ultrasonics), but none have yet been applied to humans I think.

Now if we only had our lungs configured like penguins do...

 

[Jee]

Hi,

I was on a DAN course a few weeks ago, and the first thing that came into my mind, when read about filling the lungs was that special thin layer of liquid, which covers the alveols inside, helping them not to collapse (sorry, I don't know the [English] name of it... it's a surfactant).

So the problem with breathing water (other liquids) in the lungs has the big problem of this washes away this surfactant, and this way the alveols could collapse after the water is removed from them. I know, there is a artifical surfactant spray, which could be put in to replace this natural product, but it is not so efficient, as I heard.

As I see, it could really be a big problem for a no limit dive, when you surface, already with a bit hypoxia, then you should remove the water from the lungs, then respire the surfactant, and trust in it, that your reduced effective breathing will be enough to recover. That's my opinion.

I don't know how much difficulties it causes for using LiquiVent.. I think, they made some method to solve this.

And there is another issue: the breathing muscules are not used to move so heavy material. Even for a deep scuba dive, it can cause troubles, that the denser (higher pressure) gas mixture, they breath works the breathing muscules more, than breathing on normal pressure. (This is one reason why they sometimes use Helium in the mixture - less molecule weight.) Not to talk about laminar, turbulent flow.. So imagine, how much harder work it is to move that liquid. Perhaps it could be compensated by reducing the neccessary amount of liquid to be moved in and out of the lungs to a still proper gas exchange.

Jee

 

[efattah]

The problem on a 1000m+ dive would be bone collapse. Apparently there are airspaces inside your bones. One scuba diver who had done over 300m complained of 'bone pain.'

It is easy to achieve a descent speed of 2.5m/s, so an 8-minute dive would reach a depth of 600m.

However, I think with LiquiVent, it holds far more oxygen (perhaps double) compared to regular air, so perhaps 800-1000m would be possible.

 

[naiad]

However, I think with LiquiVent, it holds far more oxygen (perhaps double) compared to regular air, so perhaps 800-1000m would be possible.

That's some depth! If something like that could work...

I guess it would be hard work breathing a liquid, and difficult to get started! Also getting rid of it afterwards, maybe their buddy would have to hold them upside down. :blackeye

Lucia

 

[pat fish]

bends and bone damage has also been reported in "deep freediving" sperm whales - check out the attached article.

Breathing Liquids I consider impossible. But letting flood the lungs and getting rid of the liquid afterwards by artificial respiration or spontaneous breathing depending on the amount of liquid seems more realistic.

another scenario for really deep freedives could be to use a 100% oxygen inhalation before the dive for a prolonged overall dive time to allow a slower adaption to depth and a progressive buildup of the bloodshift and plasma filling up the residual volume of the airways. An apneist who regularly does NL dives to below -100m could probably reach -300m+. Simply the oxygen toxicity might cause problems...

 

[Oligo]

I think that LiquiVent cannot be breathed like air. In any diving application, you would probably need a respirator to help you move the liquid in and out of your lungs. But hey, I think it would still be worth it, getting access to all that unknown territory deep down there.

 

[efattah]

You could definitely exhale liquid; inhaling would be very hard for the diaphragm, so you could 'pack' the liquid instead of inhaling. Robert Croft used to have a chest condition which forced him to pack instead of inhaling, and he could keep that up indefinitely.

 

[jome]

Just out of curiousity, how did he sleep?

I've often wondered if I could "pack breath" if needed, but the problem I see is falling a sleep.

Nothing to do with the 200m dive of course.

 

[Oligo]

Yes Eric, there seem to be some surprising benefits to being able to pack. Imagine getting shot, stabbed or otherwise acquiring a punctured lung. Air would bleed into the chest cavity and prevent inhalation by using the diaphragm. Normal people would suffocate very unpleasantly, whereas a person with the skill of packing could sustain himself until the paramedics come, simply by filling his lungs with packing.

They should teach packing to soldiers.

 

[crusty]

As i understand you can breath the liquid but as you do it washers out the
sufficant ( not spelt properly ) and that is where the problem starts.
Sufficant is like snot and what it does is stop your lungs from sticking together when you exhale.
If you breath a fluid you wash the snot out and on your first breath of air your lungs would stick together, this is why secondary drowning is such a big problem in the dive industry.
People have a near drowning experance recover go home have a sleep and die on the couch.
I could be wrong and this problem could have been overcome but is was the major stumbling block a few years ago


Crusty

 

[naiad]

You could definitely exhale liquid; inhaling would be very hard for the diaphragm, so you could 'pack' the liquid instead of inhaling.

This is similar to how a fish breathes - it uses its mouth to take in water and then exhales it through its gill openings. Liquids are probably easier to 'push' than 'pull'.

Some amphibians like frogs and toads can pack (in air). They don't have a diaphragm or a rib cage, so they use their mouth to draw in air through their nostrils and then push it down into their lungs. Some frogs can fill themselves with air like a balloon, to ward off predators or attract a mate. This is also how they make sounds - the air is pushed back and forth between the lungs and throat or cheek pouches. Sometimes they look as if they are about to burst!

Lucia

 

[pyro]

I have no idea how a human can do a total of about half a kilometer inside water without breathing. That's just insane!

 

[subaquaticus]

I have no idea how a human can do a total of about half a kilometer inside water without breathing. That's just insane!

I am curious about it...

 

[jome]

You might want to keep an eye on this link. Apparently Patrick will share some of his training profiles with us, starting today. Pretty cool if he does indeed keep it updated.

If he's going to do the 200m in training (like he's said he would, before attempting it as a record attempt), then we should see some pretty impressive dives pretty soon.

Best of luck to him (well, I guess luck is not needed if he knows what he's doing)

 

[samdive]

mmm no updates so far!

 

[laminar]

I just don't buy the 200m goal. :duh

Patrick is a skilled promoter to have landed so much sponsorship and media coverage to get under our skins like he has done. Great job. But anyone could have said they were making a 200m attempt (Loic, for example). And yes, it's good to have a lofty (or rather, deep) goal. But this just seems hyperbolic since to my knowledge Patrick has no depth of experience with no limits.

I wish Patrick would share his strategies to overcome the serious challenges to his dive:

1. decompression sickness
2. collapsing thorax
3. equalizing
4. safety
(not necessarily in that order)

Until he specifically addresses those issues, I think he'll bail much shallower than the 200m mark.

 

[Tanya S]

I personally think he will make the 200m, I do not think it is that impossible. I know that given the correct circumstances a certain woman I know could possible have done it. We have talked about it on many occassions over the last couple of years and beleive it is very attainable. But what is the next big marker???

Best

Paul

 

[quasimoto]

well, i heard that time wise, if equalizations was not a problem at all, some top breath holders could reach depths of 400 meters. So if that is true, if someone came along with amazing chest/sinus/trachea/etc flexibility and was resistant to narcosis and such, whats to stop them from breaking 300 meters?

 

[kingohyes]

Wohoo, finally an update.. http://www.patrickmusimu.com/TUD.html