2014 lunocet

[Kars]

lil jon
When you said Rocketfin, you meant the short and wide scuba fins? [like in the link bellow?]
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/rocket-fins

It's a hyperfin type of fin. (torpedo shoes on fiber blade) Waterway calls their version Glidefin.

I could not find their website. The old links seem to be off-line.
Here's a deeperblue thread about them: http://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/rocket-monofin.84618/page-1

 

[vali]

thank you
now I fully understand lil jon's post :d

 

[marginatus]

One more little discovery.... I can extend the life of the spring by using simple nylon ties around the outside of the spring assembly. The ties share the pressure that the pins inside the spring normally deal with by themselves. I think a tie near the blunt end of the spring captures that area even more than the nearest internal pin can contributing to better overall feel and responsiveness.

Been doing more 50's each day and occasionally turning for a look at the 75 pass inspired by admiration for most of you who triple that!!!!!

some pics would be awesome!!!
thanks for all your input

 

[cdavis]

I'm curious about the "slop" ( spring related?) in the Lunacet. As I understand it(dimly) there is some time delay in thrust when the blade of the fin switches from up stroke to down stroke or vis versa. Do I have that right? Why does it do that? Is it inherent in the fin(peduncle) design? or to the width of the blade? Is it technique related?

I've only used the Dolfin. With it, using good undulation technique, there is essentially zero delay in thrust going from up to down or the reverse. It only takes a very small fraction of a second for the blade to switch directions, probably a function of the very thin blade and very short hinges it uses. But, if using bad, sloppy technique with much bent knees, thrust gets choppy. It could appear to be a delay caused by the fin but its just technique.

Connor

 

[lil jon]

I honestly don't know where it's coming from. Your understanding of what I mean it correct, There seems to be some 'freeplay' before the actual fin engages the spring. It's not much but when you're swimming 100m, that faction of a second delay on every up- and down-stroke can get to you. Also, if I'm using a very small amplitude/undulation, that 'wasted' little bit equates to a fairly large % of the entire stroke. It's probably not technique related because I can feel it when I wriggle my ankles at the side of the pool. As to why it's happening I do not know. A best "uneducated/novice" guess is because of the empty space and the additional rubber extending past the screws (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I've attached a video. You can see that I've only exerted slight finger/wrist strength. Anything more than those movements and I would have required more force as I have it on the stiffest setting.

 

[Chipswim]

I'm curious about the "slop" ( spring related?) in the Lunacet. As I understand it(dimly) there is some time delay in thrust when the blade of the fin switches from up stroke to down stroke or vis versa. Do I have that right? Why does it do that? Is it inherent in the fin(peduncle) design? or to the width of the blade? Is it technique related?

I've only used the Dolfin. With it, using good undulation technique, there is essentially zero delay in thrust going from up to down or the reverse. It only takes a very small fraction of a second for the blade to switch directions, probably a function of the very thin blade and very short hinges it uses. But, if using bad, sloppy technique with much bent knees, thrust gets choppy. It could appear to be a delay caused by the fin but its just technique.

Connor

I'm expecting new Lunocet swimmers because of the introduction of the Pro model.,.. As your Lunocet swimming ancestor I'd like you to know you are onto something wonderful in the first two kicks (as AA described in his pre review teaser!) because the fin responds to any form of power you send it's way..... Big strokes..... Tiny strokes and all between.

For that to happen we need to simply be sure after assembly there is no unresisted movement in the center of the relaxed position. You can easily feel for that with the fin on your lap by operating the flex with your hands. It should always return to center on its own. Some of the fins will be tight in the center right out of the box...... It's a small variation in assembly you want to be in your favor. If there is any play read above or use your own ideas. It is pretty intuitive.

I know that has to be right for you to fully enjoy your swim. Everyone would quickly figure that out on their own because the fin would demand larger strokes and be less responsive to smaller ones..... Not rewarding enough...... Why waste a trip to the pool when previous users can write a short note helping you feel "hooked up" to the water on that first pass. I liked my Lunocet much better on day two because of that realization. I'm wanting to transfer that Positive experience to your day one!

 

[Chipswim]

I honestly don't know where it's coming from. Your understanding of what I mean it correct, There seems to be some 'freeplay' before the actual fin engages the spring. It's not much but when you're swimming 100m, that faction of a second delay on every up- and down-stroke can get to you. Also, if I'm using a very small amplitude/undulation, that 'wasted' little bit equates to a fairly large % of the entire stroke. It's probably not technique related because I can feel it when I wriggle my ankles at the side of the pool. As to why it's happening I do not know. A best "uneducated/novice" guess is because of the empty space and the additional rubber extending past the screws (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I've attached a video. You can see that I've only exerted slight finger/wrist strength. Anything more than those movements and I would have required more force as I have it on the stiffest setting.

Lil Jon ! You've got the nack for efficient communication! Perfect video... Notice the space between the rubber tip of the spring and the metal fluke retaining plate! Fill that space top and bottom with a quarter coin on each side. I used "Goop" adhesive. I pressed the coins forward in those slots so it created a tiny ramp the spring to had to climb Which ever way it was deflected. It worked great.

You may also consider the nylon tie idea written about earlier to snug it even more and extend spring life.

Half an hour should complete both projects including some time to contemplate the effects of your adjustment. I think of these as personalizing the device to my liking. Hope you like it too.

 

[Chipswim]

 

[Chipswim]

Back side photo. Sorry, I'm probably the Dr Frankenstein of swimming. Chunk of tire side wall gives me a non skid pad for coming off walls. Ramped it too for extra stiffness because I'm an oversized swimmer.... Quarter coin ramp is hidden on this side but still important to avoid the looseness you described.

I experimented with pulling the trailing edge of the fluke tight which I hoped would yield extra pop at the end of strokes. That didn't seem to make much difference but it made a great place for a bike light! Have to fill the case with silicon to keep water out.

 

[noa]

That's one setup and a half you've made there Chipswim... : ) Interesting to see creative minds at play.

 

[Apneaddict]

I honestly don't know where it's coming from. Your understanding of what I mean it correct, There seems to be some 'freeplay' before the actual fin engages the spring. It's not much but when you're swimming 100m, that faction of a second delay on every up- and down-stroke can get to you. Also, if I'm using a very small amplitude/undulation, that 'wasted' little bit equates to a fairly large % of the entire stroke. It's probably not technique related because I can feel it when I wriggle my ankles at the side of the pool. As to why it's happening I do not know. A best "uneducated/novice" guess is because of the empty space and the additional rubber extending past the screws (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I've attached a video. You can see that I've only exerted slight finger/wrist strength. Anything more than those movements and I would have required more force as I have it on the stiffest setting.

On this setup (standard out of the box 2014 Lunocet) with classic flukes, I put some small / thin washers under the fluke retaining plate to effectively raise it (a mm or 2) and take out the play. There was virtually no movement on that end afterwards and it felt very direct / responsive afterwards.

 

[Chipswim]

Thank you noa!

I liked it when you wrote about the underwater smiles. That's what I'm chasing too. This fin has been full of them......... Off to the pool!

 

[cdavis]

Thanks for both video and pic. Helps

The spring is the large object in the center of the picture with tie wraps on each end? Am I correct that the angle of the blade relative to the direction of travel is a function of strength of stroke and spring stiffness? Is the spring something only available from Ted or could you make your own if he discontinued production?

 

[Chipswim]

Thanks for both video and pic. Helps

The spring is the large object in the center of the picture with tie wraps on each end? Am I correct that the angle of the blade relative to the direction of travel is a function of strength of stroke and spring stiffness? Is the spring something only available from Ted or could you make your own if he discontinued production?

Yes! Well described. You can make anything yourself. I actually made an entire peduncle that worked well from mild steel and military grade heater hose when Ted was searching for a design that would with stand constant use.

That said I don't think Ted is going anywhere but with us into the future. He has dedicated more of his incredible manufacturing and design toward the Lunocet concept. He set out to make a monofin to fulfill some swim vision bubbling up inside of himself....... Then we came along and he realized we might be a Lunosapien community also wanting to grow a flipper and swim away.

I know it makes him shake his head when I modify his beautiful fins in the farm shop, but he never misses the overarching desire to make it work perfectly! Rest assured..... When it comes to creating monofins he is always inspired beyond what we see at the moment!

Keep yours looking original and get the same result by using AA's ideas with the washers under the retaining plate! Great idea! Same result.... Much cleaner solution. The new ramp plate coming with new orders does the same. Use our ideas or your own if it is still not tight enough! At this point there is no reason to think your Lunocet can't be instantly responsive to every move you make.

 

[Apneaddict]

Thanks for both video and pic. Helps

The spring is the large object in the center of the picture with tie wraps on each end? Am I correct that the angle of the blade relative to the direction of travel is a function of strength of stroke and spring stiffness? Is the spring something only available from Ted or could you make your own if he discontinued production?

Here's a picture of a spring:

It's moulded with a very specific durometer rubber from a custom mould made by Ted.

He already has the tooling made up, so it's really easy for him to get one of his guys to take 2-3 days and make thousands of springs, I imagine. I can't foresee future availability being an issue.

The spring does control pitch angle of the flukes / blades by flexing and also serves to return them back to neutral and eliminates free play.

In this instance, it was an overly stiff example and I started tweaking it to see what the effect was on the stiffness.

I don't foresee them wearing out regularly with "normal use".

Maybe every 2-3 yrs you could refresh it... But may not be necessary, if you start with the stiffness that best matches how you plan on using it an your strength / size.

Chip seems to be doing stuff with his fin that we will never do... Namely 13 sec 25m lengths at 250(ish) pounds with the classic flukes. The man sounds like a tank! Not sure I could do that speed if I tried and if I could... It wouldn't be freediving... It would be because I was being chased by an Orca.

I think Chip will easily get into the 12's if not 11's with the pro flukes and if he's not currently wearing a wetsuit to reduce drag, if he adds one AND the pro flukes... He may bury his head into the pool wall down to his shoulders!

 

[cdavis]

Thanks guys

One of the very useful characteristics the Dolfin is the ability to customize it to the individual diver. Chipswim is leading the way in showing how the Lunacet shares that characteristic. I've reallly enjoyed looking over his pics.

 

[Fondueset]

Lil Jon's excellent post has several qualities that I think characterize an accurate evaluation for a freediving fin.

Long-term structured workout - This is the framework for a credible evaluation. When you have a consistent workout over a long period of time you develop a very precise sense of how your feel.

Focus on Energy - The central criteria for a freediving fin is energy-for-distance. He does a good job of expressing that and throws in some speed stats for reference.

A few other random thoughts. Lil Jon mentions that glide is the virtue of the Lunocet. The theoretical advantage of foil-based fins
is low induced drag - (drag created by thrust) or 'cleaner' thrust. But to exploit that you need to maintain speed - so kick - kick -glide at the very least - and probably with more frequency that with a hyperfin. If you watch some of my orca videos you can see how the fin accelerates on the second kick. It's pretty interesting - the first one feels lame and then 'whoosh'. I think Ron called this Vortex coupling. Anyway - as a foil-fin the Lunocet is probably the same. The pro model though looks to have a deeper chord and may behave a little differently (in theory - more thrust, but more induced drag).

 

[Chipswim]

Here's a picture of a spring:

View attachment 37833

It's moulded with a very specific durometer rubber from a custom mould made by Ted.

He already has the tooling made up, so it's really easy for him to get one of his guys to take 2-3 days and make thousands of springs, I imagine. I can't foresee future availability being an issue.

The spring does control pitch angle of the flukes / blades by flexing and also serves to return them back to neutral and eliminates free play.

In this instance, it was an overly stiff example and I started tweaking it to see what the effect was on the stiffness.

I don't foresee them wearing out regularly with "normal use".

Maybe every 2-3 yrs you could refresh it... But may not be necessary, if you start with the stiffness that best matches how you plan on using it an your strength / size.

Chip seems to be doing stuff with his fin that we will never do... Namely 13 sec 25m lengths at 250(ish) pounds with the classic flukes. The man sounds like a tank! Not sure I could do that speed if I tried and if I could... It wouldn't be freediving... It would be because I was being chased by an Orca.

I think Chip will easily get into the 12's if not 11's with the pro flukes and if he's not currently wearing a wetsuit to reduce drag, if he adds one AND the pro flukes... He may bury his head into the pool wall down to his shoulders!

AA could you please suggest such a suit?

 

[cdavis]

Apneaaddict, my painful experience: The world of diving equipment manufacturing is a hard one. Good companies disappear all the time or simply quit making some items. I've long since lost count of how many pieces of good, much loved, gear I've worn out and could not replace because they were no longer made. The unfortunate truth is that the longevity of a piece of gear is limited by the shortest longevity of any critical piece, like that spring. And there is never a guarantee that that critical piece will be available when you need it.

 

[neurodoc]

cdavis, that is a good point. I too have experienced this with other sports, particularly cycling. For the Lunocet, it is pretty simple though. The parts I would be most concerned about are the little delrin bushings, for example. I intend to keep a few spares. I know I could make them if I had to though-just not fast enough on vacation or the like! I plan on having a bag of spare parts to keep this fin going for years if needed. I'm not worried about availability of the rubber spring; I had already been planning on constructing different springs out of rubber with a softer or harder durometer rating, before Ted announced two different durometer springs being available. I still may do it just to see if I can come up with anything useful, or to make spares. It would be easy to either glue up a sufficient thickness/shape or use a piece thick enough alone. Rubber cuts easily; not too difficult to work with. Here's a link to a source, as an example: http://www.mcmaster.com/#rubber-bars/=qwo1u0