5th AIDA World Freediving Championship, Egypt

[Stavros]

Guys and Gals just a quick note on the W.Ch.
I had spoken to the organisers about going as a safety diver since I didn't make the national team this year and they were more than happy to offer me a possition. Since I have a bit of experience safetying and can safety quite deep they suggested I have a responsible position in the safety freediving team, which I of course accepted. This week they informed me that they want the volunteers to pay a 370euro participation fee in order to work for the W.Ch. (same as a non-diving athlete or coach etc.)
I have of course told them "thanks but no thanks" since I feel it is ridiculous to pay in order to be allowed to work for a competition...

Just thought people who thought of volunteering should know.

Cheers Stavros

 

[samdive]

mmm..... I said the same when I heard that!

 

[BennyB]

That sounds unreasonable at first, but that will include accommodation in (I think) a 4* hotel for 11 days, so you're actually getting a decent room for about 34 euro a night.

From my perspective, I think the participation fee is acting more as a means of making people commit to going or not so the organisers have a concrete number to cater for. It would be incredibly hard to organise something like this and not know well in advance how many people are going. By paying up front (including safety/coaches/volunteers) they can lock down their numbers which will help with group discounts, organising pickups and other logistics, and probably has some impact on sponsorship as well.

I see it as shifting the payments around, simply a timing issue - if the organisers didn't ask you to pay up front, you would go out there as a volunteer and you would be paying for accommodation anyway, only at the end of your stay. This way the organisers get the money up front, are in a better position to get a group discount and are almost guaranteed that their safety diver will turn up.

I'm pretty confident that they're not out to make a profit on the comp, it would be a first if they have (put your hand up if you've profited from a World Championships...).

Admittedly, some people would probably like to find their own accommodation and do things a bit more independently, and i'm sure the organisers would not knock back any volunteers, but keep the following in mind:

1) Less hassle for you with airport transfers which are included in the price
2) They would have a better discount with such a large number to cater for (34 euro a day incl airport transfers and training days and comp fee is pretty cheap in my books)
3) It will free up their time to run the competition if they know where everyone is staying and are not waiting for people to arrive from different hotels, or going out of their usual route to pick up/drop off people. When I say run the competition I also mean plan the comp... these last 2 months beforehand will be their busiest. To plan effectively they need an exact headcount.


I actually think the last point is the most important. For people to leave saying that it was the best run comp they'd been to then they have to plan this thing pretty carefully, and to do that they have to know that everyone will turn up. Paying up front will ensure that.

Hope you can understand my reasoning here.

Cheers,
Ben

 

[Stavros]

Hi Ben,
I wrote a big message as an answer and it got lost when I pressed post reply...so here is the short version of is.

I am afraid you do not understand what I was talking about - I did not plan to go to the W.Ch as a safety for a national team. I spoke to the organisers and was asked to go as a safety freediver working for the W.Ch. ie. be responsible for the safety of all the athletes in the water during the 10 days of the competition. That would mean spending significant personal time and money (for my flights to egypt) in order to help the organisation of this event. To ask the safety freedivers to pay fees in order to be allowed to work for the W.Ch is simply ridiculous.

Such a policy I think will not be very helpfull for attracting the high level freedivers which are needed to safety the deep CWT dives.

To put it in simple terms: with this fee arrangement the W.Ch. organisers are suggesting, I would spend less money to attend the Tripple Depth in Egypt next year as a competitor, than I would to go to the W.Ch as a safety diver and work for them....

On your point about making sure the safety divers are committed to go to the event - the organisers could simply make sure safety freedivers flights are booked in advance and the flight details are sent to them - so if I've spent 500 euro or more out of my own pocket to get there (which I would be glad to do) they would be quite sure I would be there.

See my point? Its stupid to ask you to volunteer to work for them for free for 12 days and then on top of that ask you to pay for the honour of volunteering.

Cheers Stavros

 

[BennyB]

Yes I see you point now, particularly as I know now that they asked you to go.

It's a difficult situation. In most if not all competitions, the judges have their expenses and accommodation paid for, yet you could argue that the safety divers have just as an important role and they should have their expenses paid for as well. However this may mean that the entry fee has to increase. This doesn't arise very often because usually the safety people are local.

There are probably a couple of ways they could secure the numbers for the comp, but ultimately they just have to pick one method and run with it. May not suit everybody, but they've got a bigger picture to think about.

In any case, i'll buy you a beer or two for taking care of us :friday

Cheers,
Ben

 

[Stavros]

Oh....one thing that I did not mention which I consider as a given - safety diver expenses are paid for by the organiser. If they ask you to volunteer and spent time and money to get there the least they can do is cover your expences once you are there.
Cheers Stavros

 

[Stavros]

Yes I see you point now, particularly as I know now that they asked you to go.

It's a difficult situation. In most if not all competitions, the judges have their expenses and accommodation paid for, yet you could argue that the safety divers have just as an important role and they should have their expenses paid for as well. However this may mean that the entry fee has to increase. This doesn't arise very often because usually the safety people are local.

In all competitions I 've heard of, safeties have their expences covered...it is a given. Think about it: at a competition do you take it for granted that a safetydiver will be there when you are surfacing? Of course yes...so it is the organisers responsibility to have them there - Where did this idea come from that it is the safeties responsibility to pay fees in order to provide this service..? I completely agree with the fact that the problem in Egypt is that you do not have enough local freedivers of a level high enough to provide safety at a W.Ch level. But thats the organiser's responsibility for making sure the proper people are there... And I do not think that any athlete would object if they knew that an extra 10 or 20 euro went towards making sure the proper safeties are there. I know that as an athlete I would have no problem with such an increase in fees if I knew it was for safety - On the other hand I have had trouble in the past with competitions where the safeties were not of a high enough level as to make me feel safe in the water....

May not suit everybody, but they've got a bigger picture to think about.

I hope it suits the needs of the athletes...and I sure hope the organisers have some picture in mind

In any case, i'll buy you a beer or two for taking care of us :friday

I am afraid the beer will have to wait for the Aida Greece Winter Games (if you are going to come again in 07) since under these conditions I will not be going to Egypt.

Cheers Stavros

 

[BennyB]

Hopefully i'll try and make it back to the Winter games, but we're having a few visa problems at the moment and might have to hand the passports in for a couple of months while we sort them out. We'll see....

Cheers,
Ben

 

[trullalla]

Hi,

during "tripledepth" 2006, we actually paid our safety divers and the rest of the personnel (timekeepers, rope pullers...) 20 euros a day. That was mainly to compensate the "local" freedivers, because for every day they are involved in the comp, they miss out the chance to work (here in dahab one day of work for a DM is 20 dollars). and we DON'T have any sponsors...

i know that most of safety divers are not paid, but i agree with stavros that he shouldn't be asked to pay that amount of money to perform a full time job!
hey, stavros, don't get upset, you can do the safety diver at tripledepth next year for free!
too bad i won't see you in hurgada!(why don't you come to dahab to do any training anyways?)

cheers
linda

 

[laminar]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to hear that the Egypt comp is having difficulties with volunteers. In my mind it is up to the organizer to figure out whether "hiring" enough volunteers is feasible before the comp even goes ahead.

In Vancouver, the comp went ahead before it was established that there would be enough volunteers. It was assumed that there would be. Since I live here and wanted it to be a good time, I volunteered to coordinate and recruit the volunteers for the world championships. As it was, it was a juggling act that I think worked in the end, if not with the odd gap. Primarily, though, we had enough safety divers, and no one died.

Anyway, the thought of taking the roles of scuba and freediving safety divers for granted is a frightening thought. Each volunteer is spending hours and hours in the water, sometimes entire days, and usually helping to drop and haul lines at the start and end of each day. If you were to pay someone to "work" at a world championship caliber event, it would cost at least $100 a day. Volunteers make an event like that possible and save organizers thousands of dollars.

The problem here is in the foundation of the comp. If Hurgadha doesn't have enough safety divers, which I find hard to believe as it is a huge diving centre (is it not?), then the organizers would have had to plan for that situation and figure out a way to make volunteering appealing and feasible.

This kind of thing has happened before. I believe that at one of the Cyprus comps, the organizers ran out of safety freedivers. Kirk Krack was competing and sacrificed his own preparation to spot other competitors. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the Egypt organizers asking the team coaches or safeties to act as safety divers for their own athletes, which is a contentious issue at best.

The big question I would ask about these big comps is: is it really that much fun? If it was really that much fun, I think you'd see way more competitors and volunteers.

My ten cents.

Pete

 

[Stavros]

Hi Laminar - I think you missed something from my posts - Egypt is asking the safety divers (volunteers) to pay 370euro in fees in order to work as safeties in the W.Ch. This as samdive and myself have mentioned is turning a lot of people (especially hi caliber freedivers) off the whole idea of volunteering.

On the mater of Hurghada having enough divers to act as safety divers please note: I am sure there are hundreds of COMPETENT SCUBA/TECHNICAL divers in Hurghada who would be keen on helping out at the W.Ch. However I am sure that there are not enough COMPETENT FREEDIVERS in Hurghada to act as safety freedivers in an event such as the W.Ch. It is easy to deduce this since Egypt in general does not have a lot of high caliber freedivers (athletes) out of which some would volunteer for this event... And with the recent developments in competition safety practices it has become clear that all you need to support deep dives is a good counterweight ballast system and very competent safety freedivers who can safety to great depths (often bellow 30m)...
The suba divers cannot really provide much assistance and are a safety hazard in their own right since having scuba divers waiting at 75m and 90m as they are planning to have for the W.Ch. puts these divers to great risks.

I really hope they have some plan for getting high caliber safety freedivers for the W.Ch because from what I have seen thus far they don't...

My dear Linda (trulala)...next year I am coming to the Tripple Depth as a competitor not as a safety (do you have any dates set up for 2007 3ple depth?) - We are having a training camp for 2 with William Winram here in Greece beginning of Nov so I don't think I will be in Dahab...I will have to wait for the 3ple depth I guess

Cheers Stavros

 

[cebaztian]

I have volonteered as safety freediver in the WC. I will be doubling as coach for certain athletes and then be available for the organization.

Me personally I would only dive deep if I knew I have good freedivers looking after me. Scuba is not of much use in these kind of comps. I think they CAN produce risk for themselves and others.

370 (100 less then an athlete) is quite a lot in Egypt. I could dive in Dahab or many days on that kind of money. But this is a WC and I want to be there. If you are a realy competent freediver you could play it cool and maybe if you are needed in the end you could come for a reduced fee (for food and hotel) who knows.

During Nordic Deep personel got food and bed, some even could compete in one of the six competitions.
http://www.fridykning.se/nordicdeep/

Sebastian

 

[laminar]

Hi Stavros,

Not at all. I think I understood. I was just commenting on the fact that Egypt organizers didn't appear to properly recognize the deficiency in skilled freedivers for safety and then find a way to make it appealing for some to help out, rather than having to pay up front.

Anyway, I do hope it works out in the end for the Worlds, since as any who has competed before knows, it's not fun when you don't trust the safety. I have friends going!

Pete

 

[pat fish]

Scuba is not of much use in these kind of comps. I think they CAN produce risk for themselves and others.
Sebastian

Safety scuba divers are expected to have a high standard on that one... Yehia, the organizer is one of the most rewarded and respected tech diver instructor. His access to highly qualified tech divers also explains the concept of setting them as a safety on that competition. Nevertheless - I agree that a counterballast system and experienced deep freedivers as safety are the way to go. One of the best examples was the Triple depth 2006 - litteraly spoken german precision and professionalism of the safety divers gaves us a feeling of trust on that competition. As Linda stated - they were well selected, managed and also: they were payed.

Pat

 

[Monkey Matt]

Stavros,
The 370 euros is for your hotel on a half board basis. You are not being charged to provide your services as a safety diver only to have a 4 star hotel with breakfast and dinner. I am sure if you turn up and sleep on the beach and eat what ever you can catch that there will be no cost to be a safety diver.

 

[Stavros]

I am sorry Matt but we have a different way of looking at things...

For me a competition needs safety divers right? The contribution of the safetydivers in a competition is their time and hard work right? They are one of the necessary "components" of a competition. Therefore if an organiser can get the safeties locally they get them for free - if they need to import them then their expenses when in the country should be covered. (AIDA Greece pays hotels for the safeties and support people at competitions even though they could in most cases stay at home and just show up on the day of the event).

My way of thinking is that the cost of their hotel etc should be covered by the organisers (ie by the fees of the normal paying athletes and team members). Think about it there will be more than 140 athletes and with coaches guests etc there will be more than 200 people paying fees...

If I was going to the W.Ch. as an athlete I would not have a problem paying a bit more in fees if I knew it would make a difference between having competent safetydivers and not having them...wouldn't you?

Furthermore the way the cost is adding up for the "volunteers" it would cost more to go to the W.Ch. as a safety than to go and compete at a competition abroad. Therefore for all active freedivers (ie. athletes) it simple makes very little sense going to the W.Ch. as safeties... unless they are filthy rich and can spare the money...

If you think that this volunteer fee is a good deal then I think you should just go for it I guess.

Cheers Stavros

 

[laminar]

Here's an example that might help to illustrate the value of volunteers to a competition:

AIDA Worlds in Vancouver had approx 12 safety freedivers on duty every day for 5 days in the water and 2 days in the pool for a total of 7 days. (My memory is poor, but this is a rough guess based on my scheduling for those days - I was volunteer coordinator, recruiter and chief safety freediver).

Ocean days were 8-12 hours long depending on each safety freediver's shift, including set up and take down each day. Pool days were slightly shorter. Let's say 10 hours is the average.

So that's 7 days at 10 hours a day = 70 hours (please understand this is an extremely LOW estimate!)

In Canada, minimum wage is approx 7 dollars an hour, if we suppose that being a safety freediver is "unskilled labour", which we would all agree is not.

But for argument's sake, that puts us at a "value" of about $490 for the 7 days of full time work.

All of our safety freedivers were local, luckily for us. But if I didn't have that luxury, I am sure I could easily make the case that to put them up at the very least in suitable accommodation and throw in some free beers at the very least would have been completely worth it and actually a SAVINGS, since as we all know, a competent and experienced safety freediver team is worth its weight in gold. Just ask the Villefrance crew!

Pete

 

[Monkey Matt]

Interesting comments but you seem to be focusing on the safety freedivers. They are very important to the event but so are all the other volunteers. There are scuba divers, videographers, rope pullers, announcers, people that spend their day looking after Freedivers bags etc etc etc. It would price our sport out of reach if the "volunteers" were paid to attend the World Championships.
I guess it is simple, if you don't want to volunteer to give your time, money and effort, you don't have to. If you do then for 370 euros you will get your hotel and most of your food for 11 nights.
I gladly gave up 2 weeks of my annual leave, paid for all my own travel and hotel expenses, used all my own video kit and slept very little to assist Howard Jones with the 2 AIDA events in Cyprus. I can tell you that Howard made a substantial loss on both events and sadly now has nothing to do with Freediving.
If any one thinks they can do a better job than any of the past or present AIDA competitions organisers then I urge them to host an AIDA Worlds event.
And if they decide to pay volunteers, I'll be first in line!

 

[laminar]

Hi Monkey Matt,

Yes, I know that volunteers are amazing and often go out of there way to help out at these events. We had over 75 volunteers for the whole event doing all the things you mentioned and they were superb.

I thought the issue here was the Egypt couldn't find any skilled local freedivers. Are they also needed people from out of town/country to do more general volunteer roles as well? I sincerely hope that Yehia and co can find the volunteers they need to pull this off - don't get me wrong. But if he wants competent safeties and doesn't have any, then that could be a problem.

I have lots of ideas on how to run a World Championships and most mean a complete change of direction from what's currently offered.

Pete

 

[Monkey Matt]

I hope that if we do have a short fall in Safety Freedivers that all the Alternates will offer their services to enable their team mates to dive. I accept that we should not rely on this but it would make a good plan B.