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8th Coupe des Dauphines

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Jee said:
Balázs, if somebody get to the level, that he is doing a prime time illusionist show on the most viewed channel in a country (regardléess of how good is it) - you cannot call him a 3rd line magician.
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I can call him a 3rd class magician, if my milieu and I feel so! His 'performance' on the most viewed channel was a totaly downfall as I mentioned it before. As far as I know, he lost his contract as well. It was some years ago...

Jee said:
20+ was a trick, that we can agree. For 8+: I say, I hardly believe, but still: I don't judge. Beside I can have my own opinion.
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Why are you sure that the 20+ was a magic? And why are you unsure that the 8+ was not? You have more information, than we have? As far as I know, we dont have any evidence!

I dont know how he made this performances, but i'm sure about the cheating! I'm not childlike. I dont have an illusion with a performance of an illusionist!

Balázs
 
I don't know more, than you. 20+ with exhaling is something I cannot really imagine. For the other: I haven't seen, I don't know.
 
these are the questions i find most important….
1. is it really possible to swallow something that contains pressurized gas and which gradually or bit by bit releases it? :blackeye

2. what could this possibly look like? what materials?

3. how can we detect plastics or natural materials, respectively pressurized air inside the body?

4. what do we do if he pulls out a 20 min static in the next competition - the judges must give him the white card - and we simply cannot prove he is cheating? this comp. could be tomorrow in finland..

breathing through ears or eyes i would except because the airways are much too narrow and the breathing would be too exhausting, burning more oxygen than is inhaled
 
Well, indeed good questions. I guess it would need to be a small lengthy container - in the shape of the old CO2 cartridges for making soda water. Though those were pressured to only some 8-10 bars, I believe. However, I think it is not impossible to make even a smaller tank for much higher pressure. Already some 5 to 10 ml of oxygen at 300 bars would give enough O2 supply. It could be probably made not only of metal but of carbon fiber composites too, so simple metal detector may not work. Though it would likely need some valves and other metallic parts, so perhaps it could be detected by a sufficiently sensitive device.

And perhaps there is a chemical way to generate oxygen from some solid or liquid substance hidden in even smaller container.

The tricky part would be the necessity of a remote trigger - you need to swallow the thing soon enough before the performance, but cannot let it releasing the precious gas before you really need it. Well, it could be also a timer, but he would need to rely on the exact top time, which in some cases does not respect the original official schedule. Maybe that's why he's chose a Swiss competition, after all

What is also suspicious on his performance in Geneva is that he covers his mouth and nose with the hand just after surfacing (see the video below). Not sure if he tries to hide something, or if it is just an innocent gesture for drying his eyes. Would be nice to know whether someone filmed or watched him underwater.

http://cyrnea.net/pic/teams/1/2009/Coupe_des_Dauphins/Merlini_STA_surfacing.wmv
 
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Just a follow up question concerning guiness-records. Will an 02 static WR be recognized if the person has a blackout? I saw another guiness WR (underwater summersaults:head) The woman doing the last attempt has a blackout but she gets the WR record anyway. Is this the same as with O2 static?

And once again we have a very, very intelligent man commenting the action...
 
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I have so many things to say about that clip, but I will keep it to just one: didn't anyone tell them they were doing backflips, not somersaults? :duh
 
tomorrow i'll make an attempt, if everything goes well you'll see me on the next GWR...:blackeye
 
Here is the dive in higher quality .... (hope it works)


The start:
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I think he was ca. 70% VC inhaled



the dive from ca. 5.30min:
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he lost so much air.., thats really crazy.. perhaps he did a little reserve packing ??

my guess is that he can control his vitals to a little function that they needn´t so much O2... ( he did intensive meditation ca 15 min before the dive )
the other is only magic... in form like a "airtank" in his body...
another point is that he only wear this long john in the cold water for 45min before the top... very strange no gooseflesh or shivering.

greetings
andi
 
Thank you for the videos, Andi. Excellent! Well, his control of vitals have to be indeed extraordinary - he is literally an "usine à gaz". The amount of gas he is releasing on the partial video is far above any realistic possibilities. In our club we warm-up with exhalation apneas - slowly releasing the air over one or two minutes, so I have pretty good idea how much air you can release from a single inhale. And considering that I did not see him inhaling at all prior his "breath-hold" (not even the 70% you mentioned), I suspect that he had probably a giant quantity of beans for his dinner, because there is no way he could have exhaled it from half full lungs. Besides it, I do not see why he would have to exhale, when he did not have full lungs at all. Usually you do it either to lower the pressure, or to prepare for the inhale just after surfacing. My conclusion is the guy is a crook, and should not be permitted to any competition without a very deep check of all orifices.
 
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trux said:
should not be permitted to any competition without a very deep check of all orifices.
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As an AIDA International judge, i'm more than happy to let that one slide...

Seriously though, disregarding the amount of blown bubbles for a moment, would Beta blockers have such a profound effect on breath hold? 8-9min statics I could believe, but I have no idea whether someone could dope themselves to the hilt to get a 10+ breath hold.

Beta Blockers are probably a bit easier to test for than if someone has ingested a bottle of O2...
 
I see this thread too late ... but I'd like to add something. I competed there and spoke at length with David. Of course, having seen his AP, and he being a total stranger fellow italian (by the way, he initially entered as David Pospiech or similar, then changed to David M) I went to talk to him, about 3 hours before TOP. I learned a few things about his background. He asked me what was the world record, I said it was Tom's 10:12 but one-of-a-kind, and since David had told me his PB was 9:50 I wished him good luck to break the WR sooner or later... he replied maybe sooner. I spoke to him again in the showers after the attempt, he was extremely disappointed for the "low" time, not the DQ. He told me he would not compete again - and by the way he has supposedly moved to Las Vegas now for some show. He did not tell me at the time he was a magician, but when we exchanged emails later he confirmed it.

Clearly, he had come to the comp for the WR. I cannot say if he cheated and how, but let me clarify that the guy was sitting with his trainer by the pool the whole time. He did not "disappear" somewhere, and although I cannot say of course that he did not ingest something, I would say there was nothing peculiar to be seen. He sat most of the time in a very normal position, no yoga and certainly less "relaxation positions" than most others. He told me his preparation is mainly mental, and frankly I think this must be true even in case of tricks because what he does is not ordinary at all, not without risk. He went into the water at TOP-45min, with his trainer.

IF he was cheating, then he did it in a way that would make it impossible to spot under the current AIDA rules.

As a final note, he left as soon as he had changed (plane to catch).
 
The 20+ was just a Circus Show...

To have judges checking everytning before, during and after the attempt is different. To cheat is extremely difficult... maybe not impossible but very very hard. And then the BIG chance to get taken in flagrante delicto is also a factor to deal with here.

And when you get "unmasked as cheats" you career is over. At least in AIDA events.

/B

ps. and if I am the judge I will also kick his a** so hard so he can feel it in his throat for two full weeks after.
 
Bill, I am not sure what message exactly you are trying to pass to us. Yes, I agree that the 20+ minutes was just a circus show. But I do not agree so much that cheating is very very hard. Perhaps for a common competitor, but I do not believe there are too many among them who would really ever come to such idea and tried cheating. It is an entirely different case at a professional cheater, well - illusionist, who has the know-how, the technical means, the experience, the guts, and the interest for such fraud. For such guy, who already "cheated" many times before (including in front of Guinness judges), it is certainly not difficult to cheat again in front of AIDA judges, and I wonder how you want to prove it, if the cheat is not detectable with current methods, which are basically just a surveillance before the performance and doping control afterward.

So, Bill, I am not sure what exactly you transmitted to us in your last post: are you telling that the current AIDA measures are good enough, so that cheating is impossible or very very hard (confirming so that Merlini did not cheat), or are you rather telling that the guy indeed cheated and that you will kick his ass hard if he tries it again with you?

For me already the fact that he entered the competition under false name is highly suspicious, and points to a faul game. I admit though that although everything on his appearance in Geneva looks weird and suspicious, I know of no definitive proof that he really cheated. If you have that information, please do not hesitate publishing it (and kicking his ass hard).
 
If he has been training since he was 4 - then maybe he's not cheating.. it isn't inconceivable that someone who's not a known freediver could come in from outside and beat us all...

I taught breath holding to an escape artist a couple of years ago as he was doing an underwater escape stunt. He was certainly doing it for real, it wasn't magic, it was just learning to hold your breath for a different reason. Maybe a huge media paycheck for a tv show is more motivational than an AIDA trophy?

He may well be cheating, but then again he might just not be...

Fearless escape artist breaks world record for longest time underwater without air | Mail Online
 
samdive said:
it isn't inconceivable that someone who's not a known freediver could come in from outside and beat us all...
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Yes, that's sure, and I consider it pretty well possible that there are/were people, for example among yogis or native divers who might be able breaking the record easily. However, I still have my serious doubts about Merlini - doing apnea without full lungs, in a cramped position, moving all the time, and exhaling, or even removing handcuffs - that really looks very suspicious and more like a magic than a real performance. If he can pull 10 minutes in such conditions, then he should be able doing 20 when really still and with full lungs. And that sounds pretty hard to believe to be physiologically possible.
 
Actually, what is cheating? I mean, we all have more or less an idea, but if you actually read the rules for international aida competition all that it says is that you have to be in front of the judges 45min before (merlini: yes) and that your performance begins and ends when mouth and nose are in/out of the water (merlini: yes).

It does not say that you should not be breathing through your perforated eardrums (not sure it's possible), or that you should not ingest some oxygen-releasing pill 46 minutes before and then burp the air from the stomach to your lungs (again not sure it's possible), or wear a mask with a hole and breath through that (this IS possible, and when I look at a video of a certain hand-clapping person I have to wonder).

Concerning Merlini's attempt, I have to say that he did all according to the AIDA rules (apart from the naive hand-holding that eventually disqualified him), so either
1) he has a trick that AIDA cannot detect
or
2) he was for real
 
Well, according to the rules, inhaling through perforated eardrums, from ingested oxygen supply, or through a perforated mask is definitely cheating. You are supposed to hold your single breath, and not more of them. That's pretty obvious. And it should be also detectable - if you inhale, you need also exhaling. I did not hear that Mifsud continued exhaling during his apnea in Monaco, but I saw on the video that it was the case at Merlini in Geneva, hence I suspect him more. And seeing him starting the breath-hold without inhaling at all, it makes the theory about hidden O2 supply more probable - the O2 would help you inhaling much lower volume of gas, hence if you start with empty lungs, you can keep pretty long before you start to need exhaling. If you just breathe through perforated eardrums or mask, you need 5 times higher volumes of air, hence the exhaling becomes more evident and likely suspicious.

EDIT: well, if you exhale above water (through the eardrums or the mask), it won't be visible. That's why I believe it should be mandatory to have both ears and the mask totally submerged during the breath-hold.
 
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trux said:
You are supposed to hold your single breath, and not more of them.
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Sorry I don't see the single breath written down in the rules. Mind you, I know I am just going to the extreme, but I think it would help to add a short paragraph defining what IS static apnea.

trux said:
I believe it should be mandatory to have both ears and the mask totally submerged during the breath-hold.
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I agree!
 
I just watched again the video of Mifsud in Monaco. The quality on Youtube is poor, but it looks like that until the moment he starts clapping his hands, the mask is entirely submerged. I'd tell that even during the clapping. But even if it was going out, he was moving, making waves, and splashing around too much, so am not sure if it was possible to breathe through it. I am not telling he did not cheat in other way (the clapping is indeed very strange), but would not tell it was possible in the suggested way.
 
rxcnc2 said:
Sorry I don't see the single breath written down in the rules.
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I think it used to be there, but do not see it in the updated rules. However, since you are supposed to hold your breath, it is redundant - it is implicit and apparent that you are not permitted taking another one.
 
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