Airbalete 110

[popgun pete]

So you strengthened the horizontal spring to improve the trigger mechanism re-latch? For a moment there I thought you may have been contemplating weakening it or leaving it out completely to lower the trigger pull! I had not realized that the re-latching action was sticky due to the grease. As grease can be gradually pushed aside over time I would rather use oil inside a pneumatic speargun as it covers every surface and is redistributed every time you up end the gun. The downside is the oily nature of gun maintenance!

 

[Don Paul]

So you strengthened the horizontal spring to improve the trigger mechanism re-latch? For a moment there I thought you may have been contemplating weakening it or leaving it out completely to lower the trigger pull! I had not realized that the re-latching action was sticky due to the grease. As grease can be gradually pushed aside over time I would rather use oil inside a pneumatic speargun as it covers every surface and is redistributed every time you up end the gun. The downside is the oily nature of gun maintenance!

Yes the stock latch spring was strengthened, after I observed the sluggish latch return movement. The viscosity of the factory installed grease allows the grease to dampen and delay the latching to the sear when loading.
My stock gun required a prolonged piston to sear engagement when loading that took a while to get used to. It lacked the nice confidence inspiring engagement Ive come to trust in the other 20 airguns I have loaded.

I'm not completely sold on the grease at this point, I don't mind replacing fork oil and the suspended contaminants each season. After the first disassemble I may convert to Silkolene full synthetic oil . I too like the fact that oil inside the gun coats all the parts all the time.
Cheers, Don

 

[Fondueset]

Perhaps off topic - but the coolest trigger mech I've seen is on some russian pneumos. It employs a sort of sleeve/piston and 3 embedded bearings which lock the end of the piston when the gun is loaded. I cannot offhand recall the name of those guns but the mech really impressed me.

Ah ha! found it: http://www.kayuk.ru/

Specifically Cool! : http://www.kayuk.ru/gun_spusk.php

 

[Don Paul]

Nice gun mech, thanks for the link, I bet Pete knows about it but I've never seen it before. There are some nice stringers taken with that short gun.

Cheers, Don

 

[Fondueset]

I've seen one in action here in the bay. Tremendous range for such a small gun. They will make them any length.

 

[Don Paul]

I've seen one in action here in the bay. Tremendous range for such a small gun. They will make them any length.

Please don't tell me any more I have a young boy to send to Notre Dame in a few years... I'll be ''Living in a Van.... Down by the river''.:crutch

Cheers, Don

 

[Fondueset]

I know it knocked scales off a carp at the end of it's line - which looked to be about 12 feet. My friend Roland was the owner of the gun - I will try to contact him. I think he purchased at least two in different lengths.

Here is a pic of him with the one he brought here - you can see he's got a camera mounted.

 

[popgun pete]

Nice gun mech, thanks for the link, I bet Pete knows about it but I've never seen it before. There are some nice stringers taken with that short gun.

Cheers, Don

Yes, I saw this "Kayuk" pneumatic gun some years ago when the web-site was first being developed, the 3D graphic illustrations of the gun are very nice and show exactly how it works. To release the sliding piston the three balls all retract inwards when the trigger is pulled. Usually it is the other way around, the balls retract outwards to release the piston. The reversed arrangement is an attempt to improve airflow from the outer air reservoir to the inner barrel by making the ball system very compact and thereby reducing any throttling, but results in a relatively heavy piston. Inner barrel diameter is 13 mm. The "Kayuk" speargun has large moulded plastic components, unlike many of its contemporaries, which make it a floater.

Check the internal arrangement at this link: http://www.kayuk.ru/using_sborka.php

 

[tromic]

Everybody who has Airbalete claims that it is easier to load the gun than Cyrano on same pressure. I am trying to explain what is the reason for that. I do not think only the lower friction of Airbalete piston is the reason. I would say that a merit of microspeed slider. What do you think?

 

[mucous]

in collusion with tromics question i would definately like to hear some theories on that mystery. i've been reading all your guys posts here in the pneumo section and i've been thinking about getting an airbalete. unless mares comes out with a dry barrel gun! ha ha! i really look forward to reading all your guys new posts every morning before work! greetings and salutations to all of you from eugene oregon!--steve

 

[Don Paul]

Everybody who has Airbalete claims that it is easier to load the gun than Cyrano on same pressure. I am trying to explain what is the reason for that. I do not think only the lower friction of Airbalete piston is the reason. I would say that a merit of microspeed slider. What do you think?

I'm afraid I can be of no help on this one as I have never loaded a Cyrano.
Airbalete is the first 11mm barrel gun I have owned. I can say the long nose, with the hydroformed flair out starting a full 5'' from the barrel retainer make for a strong secure grip on the barrel while loading.

Cheers, Don

 

[Fondueset]

I think it is as simple as above plus materials. The O rings and silicone lube reduce the resistance and also lower the initial effort of getting the load started. That said, It does not seem a huge difference to me.

 

[popgun pete]

"Airbalete" users may be mainly converts from the band gun world, so may be new to pneumatic spearguns and will not have loaded too many pneumatic spearguns to have any standard for comparison. Easier loading of a "Cyrano" is down to the smaller 11 mm diameter inner barrel and I expect that is the case with the "Airbalete". Ditto for the "Stealth/Spark/Sten 11", however there is still the compression ratio to consider. A lower compression ratio speargun is easier to load than a higher compression ratio speargun, but I do not know what the "Airbalete" compression ratio is, plus it will change with various gun lengths due to the bulbous nose tank shape. The larger the tank internal volume then the lower the compression ratio for a gun. Another possibility is the "Airbalete" has no partitioning bulkhead, so during loading air passes readily into the tank and not through a non-return valve and/or an open transfer port. Shaft travel speed is very low during loading compared to shooting, so I doubt that this throttling at the partitioning bulkhead openings has much of an effect on the loading effort in terms of pushing on the shaft. Any test requires someone to load similar length guns at the same initial pressure and make a direct comparison.

 

[tromic]

Everybody who has Airbalete claims that it is easier to load the gun than Cyrano on same pressure. I am trying to explain what is the reason for that. I do not think only the lower friction of Airbalete piston is the reason. I would say that a merit of microspeed slider. What do you think?

Here is a sketch. Airbalete's miscrospeed slider solves the problem of scraping between sliding ring and shaft, as denoted by red dot on Cyrano's sketch. I think that's why Airbalete is more easy to load than Cyrano. One fiend of mine who has both Cyrano 970 and Airbalete claims that Airbalete is easier to load. I suppose Airbalete's piston also has lower friction than Cyarano's but that is less important to loading effort.

 

[popgun pete]

Here is a sketch. Airbalete's miscrospeed slider solves the problem of scraping between sliding ring and shaft, as denoted by red dot on Cyrano's sketch. I think that's why Airbalete is more easy to load than Cyrano. One fiend of mine who has both Cyrano 970 and Airbalete claims that Airbalete is easier to load. I suppose Airbalete's piston also has lower friction than Cyarano's but that is less important to loading effort.

That could be checked out by swapping the microspeed slider for a standard stop ring and loading the "Airbalete" again as a comparison. I doubt that the dragging effect as shown in your illustration occurs, plus the further that the shaft descends into the inner barrel then the more the shaft is brought into alignment with the axis of the barrel. When a "Cyrano" shaft tail is first docked into the piston the rear of the stop ring is 1.5 cm from the step of the shaft tail stop diameter. That is because the stop ring is sitting in the recess in the front of the muzzle. Looking at my "Cyrano" standard shaft the only scratches appear to be from sand particles trapped under the stop ring and dragged nearly the full length of the shaft, the front section is relatively unmarked because the stop ring never slides over that section under any loading or drag action. If the stop ring dragged during muzzle loading then it would make more distinctive marks on the shaft surface, especially the black finish standard shaft. Tilted stop rings, the thin washer type used by Mares at one time, could carve a short track in the cadmium plated shafts under certain circumstances. The scratch was much wider than that left by sand grains because the tilted stop ring bit into the shaft surface and scraped the cadmium off.

 

[popgun pete]

I just found one of the older Mares "Sten" stop rings, they are half the length of the stop ring now used on the "Sten". The modern stop ring is also made from stainless steel. The earliest "Sten" stop rings are thick, like the modern ones, but made from cadmium plated steel, same as the shaft. At one time Mares seemed to go on a materials reduction strategy and used the thin washer type stop rings which were prone to tilting on the shaft. Could be the microspeed slider, which is basically a long stop ring, does not tilt on the shaft at all. That may be why it has less drag effect during loading, so your diagram may be right, but the shaft should be straight into the muzzle and the stop ring shown tilted instead.

 

[Fondueset]

Seems like my cyrano had a plastic slide ring that was pretty long. If there is a difference I don't think thats it. Seems like the silicone rings and lub in the airbalete are a little less prone to locking up at the terminal position - so you don't have that initial jerk to get things moving - otherwise I don't think its all that great a diff.

 

[tromic]

I just found one of the older Mares "Sten" stop rings, they are half the length of the stop ring now used on the "Sten". The modern stop ring is also made from stainless steel. The earliest "Sten" stop rings are thick, like the modern ones, but made from cadmium plated steel, same as the shaft. At one time Mares seemed to go on a materials reduction strategy and used the thin washer type stop rings which were prone to tilting on the shaft. Could be the microspeed slider, which is basically a long stop ring, does not tilt on the shaft at all. That may be why it has less drag effect during loading, so your diagram may be right, but the shaft should be straight into the muzzle and the stop ring shown tilted instead.

Yes, the microspeed slider is basically a long stop ring. When loading long guns it is difficult to have the shaft straight into the muzzle all the time. That's why I sketched the shaft tilted. It would be good test to load Cyrano using microspeed slider on the shaft. For permanent usage of microspeed slider with Cyrano the muzzle tip should be different, less ID, same as Airbalete.

 

[popgun pete]

So what you are saying is the microspeed slider follows the shaft alignment even if it has a slight bow in it as it enters the muzzle, say just before the mid-point of the shaft passes into the muzzle. You could be right, especially if the base of the slider can pivot slightly in the muzzle nose recess.

 

[tromic]

So what you are saying is the microspeed slider follows the shaft alignment even if it has a slight bow in it as it enters the muzzle, say just before the mid-point of the shaft passes into the muzzle. You could be right, especially if the base of the slider can pivot slightly in the muzzle nose recess.

Right! Yes, the base of the slider can pivot slightly in the muzzle nose recess. I will try it today afternoon. I have both microspeed slider and Cyrano. There could not be any other, most significant, mystery about easier loading of Airbalete. :friday