airguns: Sporasub One Air 2012!!!

[Broseidon]

No, I didn't link them to the thread rofl

I am a massive Omer fan boy as well, fins, knife, boots, belt, stringer, float, line winder, glues, mono... I think they're great. I cannot find fault with their products, until now.

After using the One Air, I will never, under any circumstances touch a pneumatic gun ever again. Read into that what you will.

I've been pretty bummed by the whole 'smoke and mirrors' approach to the product launch, it's been annoying to see companies 'selling' the One Air for months, even when it hasn't been available. I did bring this up with Omer as it does break three separate EU trade laws but they weren't that fussed.

For anyone still wondering, the new SK40 Carbon band gun is now set to launch in Jan 2013.

 

[skygear]

Lol. I think in the time it has taken so far for the release of these different products, we as a community could have already launched a whole brand with full r&d already.

Look at Mako...

Do you think it might actually be a funding issue?

 

[Broseidon]

Ha ha, that's very true!

I have no idea what the issues could be for them - the massive delays do sound like funding although they are a big company... there is obviously something seriously wrong somewhere.

The delay in the SK40 is what I find most odd - the photos of the gun have been available for almost a year now.

Maybe they're waiting for the cash from Summer sales to place a big order for the carbon barrels, that sounds feasible.

 

[skygear]

Could very well be, not wanting to flood the market with too many of their products at a time. wanting to see how each sells and re-built a brand name. Then using the funds from the success to fund the rest of the venture instead of coming out of pocket in the negative.

 

[kwtony]

Def dont think they would rather hold on and make us all wait so the market doesnt get flooded with their guns...They could be broke, you never know. Just because they are big doesnt mean they have money. Could be 1 of 100 different things. But i dont recall seeing any press releases or updates lately about it. Them going into hiding and not at least making some mention just means they dont really care what you have to say and will release it at their own liesure. Then again i could be completely off and the owners son could have cancer and all their money is going towards treatment, and i would look like a complete dick.. Either way, a "hey assholes, the gun making progress. We had an issue with our trigger mech and wanted to fix the problem on all of them before it got put in your hands" or anything along those lines. Ive given up on the one air and am moving on to better things...

 

[popgun pete]

I would be surprised if the "One Air" was not basically an "Airbalete" with a different shaped external air tank, new end bulkhead plastic moldings to suit the new tank's cross-section and a vacuum barrel muzzle which Omer have already said is based on the STC product. So I doubt that the trigger mechanism is a problem and the two detachable rear handle models most likely will share many components which will have already been proven in the "Airbalete". Either sub-components are in short supply for the "One Air" or a problem has been found with assembling the gun in the factory, remember that they have to deal with sealing off those two side tanks which are not pressurized. On a cylindrical tank gun you can wiggle and twist the tank around to help push past tight "O" rings during gun assembly, but once the elliptical cross-sections start to close up it just has to be a straight push with everything lined up. The cylindrical pressurized section will connect up OK as it will certainly have a cylindrical boss going into it carrying the "O" rings that seal the central pressure tank, but the crescent moon shaped side tanks are going to be a problem where their seals have to turn through an acute angle where they abut the central cylinder at the upper and lower corners. Draw the cross-section on a sheet of paper and you will see what I mean. My guess is that marks on the muzzle of the gun received by Broseidon, and now returned to Omer, are due to rework to get the gun properly fitted together by having to undo the muzzle and have another go at mating the parts properly. On the "Airbalete" they just had to deal with a single seal at each end of the air reservoir, with the "Air One" there are three separate sections to seal, one to keep pressurized air in and the other two to keep water out. So gun assembly, which is labor intensive and requires training of the assemblers in the factory, could be a sticking point, especially to get guns going through the production line without constant rework to fix the seals. Plus the guns have to be checked not only for air pressure leaks, but for resistance to water leaks penetrating the outer side tanks.

If I was manufacturing such a gun then I would either figure out an easy way for the user to drain the side tanks or periodically check up on their watertight status, or foam fill them. Guns with water sloshing around inside them will be a big turn off due to corrosion occurring where it cannot be seen or accessed without completely disassembling the gun. That is a problem that Omer has made for itself by having a three chamber tank which they have to reliably seal before the guns leave the factory (wherever that is located!). Everything else about the gun is not really new, so the three chamber tank must be the issue that is holding up the gun's volume production.

 

[kwtony]

I understand what you mean about the seals. And I figured it was something along the lines of their shape and design.

They should add a thread screw on either side to allow for easy draining, maybe. What they REALLY need to do is hire you to get the job done right. However, there very well could be two people working their asses off in a shop fixing these things.

 

[popgun pete]

I understand what you mean about the seals. And I figured it was something along the lines of their shape and design.

They should add a thread screw on either side to allow for easy draining, maybe. What they REALLY need to do is hire you to get the job done right. However, there very well could be two people working their asses off in a shop fixing these things.

There are probably a lot more than two, especially with the factory workforce having to come to grips with the new gun's quirky features. When pre-production prototypes are made every effort is lavished upon them, all the parts are made to fit exactly and they are both hand-made and assembled with time no object. On the production line the whips are cracking and the workers have to churn the guns out while keeping time costs down and both the volume and quality up, otherwise the guns become an uneconomic proposition to manufacture.

 

[popgun pete]

An interesting variant of the "One Air" gun would be to use the now empty side tanks as a battery compartment and install two high power LED lights on either side of the gun's oval shaped nose cone in recessed reflector mounting holes like the outer ports of the torpedo tubes on an old style submarine. The light switches would be in the rear end of the gun on either side as part of the rear plastic bulkhead (which would now be three separate molded sections fitted closely together; the central pressure bulkhead and the two flanking ones being the light switch mountings and also the rear side tank access plugs). Maybe use twisting lugs projecting out each side of the central bulkhead to bear on and lock up the side tank access plugs against their sealing gaskets once they are in position. The wiring loom for each torch would run inside the side tanks up to the LED lights in the front nose cone, so essentially a LED torch built into either side of the gun which is totally installed inside the gun. Three AAA batteries for power, so six batteries in all, three AAA's in a line on each side for powering each LED. The extra weight of the batteries and their placement along the gun barrel would need to be checked out against the available buoyancy if the gun was still to float after spear discharge. Hence a "nightfighter" model for places where you can spear after dark (which you cannot legally do here, plus once the "night shift" moves in the risks tend to escalate) or for illuminating the interior of large caves and under long ledges and overhangs. Maybe have a switch selectable strobe pattern option to mesmerize fish and attract them to the gun, it seems to work for large cuttlefish which can turn on a strobe pattern of pulsing light across their bodies. As for maintenance, well at least you would now have a good reason to open up those side tanks to replace the batteries!

 

[Broseidon]

Nice idea Pete BUT as anyone has has speared at night will know, having the torch attached to your gun would be a terrible idea.

When you're fishing at night, you need to be constantly scanning the surrounding water and seabed to find fish - having to constantly swing the gun around just wouldn't work.

A torch in the end could be ok for hole fishing but as anything else, it would be next to useless.

 

[popgun pete]

Nice idea Pete BUT as anyone has has speared at night will know, having the torch attached to your gun would be a terrible idea.

When you're fishing at night, you need to be constantly scanning the surrounding water and seabed to find fish - having to constantly swing the gun around just wouldn't work.

A torch in the end could be ok for hole fishing but as anything else, it would be next to useless.

Well I cannot really claim any credit for the idea, incorporating a torch/flashlight into the gun's nose has already been patented by the late Patrick Frain in the USA some years ago, only there it was located inside a rectangular alloy tube barrel for a band gun, namely one of his "Ultimate" brand spearguns. I know that a guy on "Spearboard" has one of these, but the light is not working and I don't know if he had it from new or picked it up secondhand. The battery pack and switch was in a sealed box behind the rear handle and mounted on the cocking stock. Eastern European freshwater divers have also built spearguns with attached front end lights, so they must have some application, although I imagine that it would be for short range shooting. One of the US speargun manufacturers has a muzzle mounted flashlight under development, I have seen it, but I don't know if it has been released yet.

I have speared till after sundown in relatively shallow water (before the rules here changed) and you can still see what is around you, although everything is very grey looking in the dim twilight conditions with the sun just on or below the horizon, so the speargun light could be useful then. Large rays come trundling in and most of the fish are by then hiding in the reef, leaving bottom fish on the sand as the usual prey. When it is pitch black you are right, but there are not many free swimming fish around on the reefs except for large rays and small sharks of the harmless varieties. In deeper water fish will still be swimming around, but so are other predators who will be quick to investigate any struggle. Basically I was just transposing the idea of a light in an empty barrel tube on a band gun into two lights in the empty side barrels on a pneumatic gun, it would be a cool looking gun, but the market for such a gun would be very small, so it is not something likely to ever be put into production. That said, the Chinese seem to have made all sorts of gadgets with built-in flashlights/torches, so I guess you never know what might appear one day.

Just found this reference which I remembered contributing to, most of the issues for muzzle lights are discussed here: Lighted speargun muzzle - - Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum

 

[skygear]

I'm working on an Idea with the Cree LED platform integrated into a glove.
Good dive light for less then 10 bucks, check this out!! - Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum #'s 3&4 pages.

Link will change as I feel I went offtopic in that thread.

ALso as for the battery's, you would want a rechargeable battery system, preferably one of the 15 min versions. The CR123, or other platform I mentioned (18650) there would be optimal. The density of the Lithium Ion's is less than that of standard batteries. Plus a higher voltage/ amperage to properly supply the more efficient LED's of current LED technology.

Both sides would not need to have separate packs or switches. A simple 'TAP' in the rear cap internally would be able to easily conceal the required 2 or so leads. A magnetic switch near the trigger assembly would alleviate the need for additional drilling too.

Some additional thoughts-> having the front of the guns ballasts cut/ drilled precisely would need to be done by a machine to maintain the symmetry. Going with an ARRAY or 2 Single LEDS would be the next decision. In either instance a quality acrylic would need to be molded for the space and held in place. THe reflector dish for the LED would need to be designed for the optimal use of the output of the LED and to focus the light where it is needed.

If it was built in an ARRAY pattern, there could be different modes for the module, (Spot Flood & both on) in addition to insensity settings.

FOr the battery indicator, I feel on the handle covered by a hand is the best placement for that. In a low light situation, an additional glowing light can be a distraction for us and the little fishes.

A weird side note here. Could go all "TRON" on the design and put glowing strip flood lights on each side of the gun. Could even use the strip floods on the top and bottom as well... Seems futuristic or neerdy but would also help with the issue Bro. put forth. Fiber optics or strip LED's in a pattern with a low profile solid state dispersion lens would easily accomplish this.

The glove ->

EDIT- A velcro/strap/bolt on system would work well also for the other guns on the market. Making it a universal platform would also help with the buoyancy issue. If it is an attachment, the unit itself could also contain the additional buoyancy requirements to offset the weight of the system. Molding the unit out of neoprene or a foam would accomplish this.

 

[popgun pete]

My recollection is the "Ultimate" gun with the built-in muzzle light was from the incandescent light bulb, parabolic reflector era and the battery pack was relatively large as a consequence to give the required run-time (whatever that was). With LED lighting everything can be made much smaller, so bright lights can fit in places where previously there was insufficient space to install them, now you have even designed one in the finger of a glove! Dive gloves last me a season, so I am not sure how long that sort of thing would survive reef duty and grabbing onto fish who are wishing that they were somewhere else, but it is a novel concept. When the prototype "One Air" gun appeared it had "windows" in the nose cone on either side with an angled plastic strut forming the leading edge of each window which was of a triangular shape when seen looking down at the plan view of the gun. The white shapes created by the windows over the white background underneath the gun looked like a pair of eyes and that is what made me think of some LED lights going into that position, although not inside those windows as the angled strut would be in the way. The production gun still has that wide nose cone shape, but the detail looks completely different as before my guess is the windows were only there to eliminate weight in a plastic fabricated item (milled out) whereas the molded production item is most likely hollowed out internally from the rear, so no need for any windows behind that leading edge. I think any light equipped "One Air" model would be too big a conversion job for the layout that I was suggesting unless the gun was purposely redesigned to implement it, the probability of that ever happening being close to zero.

Built-in lights provide no opportunities for the snagging of shooting lines, unlike lights installed on clamps or brackets, which are usually add-ons, unless they are carefully positioned where the line will not reach them, so inside or around the muzzle is the preferred position if the light is going on the gun. There are dive masks with headlights, but too much drag for freedivers, although with them the light always goes where you are looking.

Just checking back, that plan view photo of the prototype gun nose cone is on post #30 of this thread.

 

[Crispin]

After using the One Air, I will never, under any circumstances touch a pneumatic gun ever again. Read into that what you will.

So basically you thought you had it locked & loaded, maybe you had, maybe you hadn't, and regardless, the spear came straight out at 23bar and nearly took your face off....

Skygear then buys the gun, loads it, the spear doesn't stick, and also either comes flying out, or he just lets it out slowly because he knows its not holding....

gun gets sent back - Omer are testing it....the end.

I'll stick with my tovarich for now then....bit of a shame - this gun was starting to look good.

 

[Broseidon]

Pretty much that.

The gun was running at ~19 Bars. The safety was on. The line release was in place. I loaded the gun. Spear clicked in. I took my hand off the spear - the spear stays in place without any pressure from me - I'm just taking my hand away and gun goes off on its own 4 inches from my eye ball.

Scared the living **** out of me.

The spear was in place and holding - no question about that at all. For some reason, I genuinely thought it was just me being an idiot and that somehow it was my fault, not the gun so I decide to cut my losses and sell the gun. Something I shouldn't have done and completely and utterly regret.

Fortunately, I came to my senses and got in touch with the dealer - Omer then got in touch with me and requested that I send the gun back to them asap as they were worried about it.

Having read a few threads on various forums, there seem to have been issues with Omer mechs over the last few years. The first batch of Cayman ET's that were sent to the States last year had problems with the spear mis-firing while under tension.

Anyway - I should have contacted the dealer straight away instead of selling it. I'm very ashamed that I didn't. The gun has gone back to Omer. I got a full refund. No-one died - just. Pneumatic guns are utterly terrifying and I never even want to see one ever again.

The end.

 

[kwtony]

I pretty much had done this already. But after all this crap, I'm going to add the sporascrub one air to the list of guns the I DONT want

 

[Crispin]

Pretty much that.

The gun was running at ~19 Bars. The safety was on. The line release was in place. I loaded the gun. Spear clicked in. I took my hand off the spear - the spear stays in place without any pressure from me - I'm just taking my hand away and gun goes off on its own 4 inches from my eye ball.

Scared the living **** out of me.

I'll bet it did I had it happen to me when I installed the trigger kit on my tovarich incorrectly, it was nowhere near my eyeball, but yeah - very scary, even more scary to constantly have no confidence in the mechanics of the gun, makes you not want to touch it. I tested mine on low pressure for a good while after i reinstalled the trigger kit before I ramped it up again.

Fortunately, I came to my senses and got in touch with the dealer - Omer then got in touch with me and requested that I send the gun back to them asap as they were worried about it.

Yeah so they should be - I'd speculate thats why we're not seeing available for sale atm, on the scale of design/assembly/manufacturing faults it's right up there with backfiring rifles....not to mention a PR disaster after all the hype...

Anyway - I should have contacted the dealer straight away instead of selling it. I'm very ashamed that I didn't. The gun has gone back to Omer. I got a full refund. No-one died - just. Pneumatic guns are utterly terrifying and I never even want to see one ever again.

Don't be ashamed, it's Omers fault - not yours. If you had used pneumatics for years then maybe you would have interpreted things differently, and guessed it was the gun at fault, but even if you didn't, any user of this type of gun (new or veteran) shouldn't have to potentially "expect" a catastrophic failure of the most critical component - QA should take care of fundamentals like this.
Real shame that it's put you off them in such a way - they can be a great way to catch fish, I can't blame you at all for feeling like that though, nasty near miss. Cheers for posting all the info, forewarned is forearmed.

 

[popgun pete]

Did the documents with this "One Air" gun include an inspection card or slip? At quality inspection a gun is checked and the inspector usually puts an inspection card with their ID number inside the gun's packaging or stamps the user operating manual with their approval stamp and then initials it. In their hurry to send you a gun these checks may not have been done, or someone has grabbed a gun which should never have been sent out, but was awaiting further work until someone else grabbed it and sent it to you instead.

Your gun showed some signs of rework (spanner marks) around the muzzle, so the assembly of the gun could be faulty, i.e. someone fixes one part and unwittingly stuffs up another (I have done that myself with fixing a "Stealth"), or there was a bit of foreign or untrimmed plastic material impeding the free movement of the trigger slide inside the gun, or there was an alignment problem in the travel bore which these parts slide through.

 

[Broseidon]

Hi Pete, no, there was no inspection card or quality control slip with the gun.

I know for a fact, as Omer told me, that there was meant to be a red tag attached to the handle that had warnings on it - this may have been the quality control tag...?

Whatever it was, it missing.

When I first raised the issue with them, they replied:

...there is a red tag on the handle with some VERY IMPORTANT instructions.
Did the customer read them and act?

It states:

WARNING!! Position the line release before loading the gun.
Failing to position the line release before loading the gun, or positioning it after having loaded the gun, could result in ACCIDENTAL SHOOTING!!!

There was no red tag on the handle or in the box.

 

[popgun pete]

The quality control card or paper slip is usually not red, so this missing red card must be an additional warning to users. All warnings are included in owner instruction manuals, but as they often go unread an extra notification is sometimes included on a separate tag or sticker. They usually say "don't load or fire the gun out of water, don't point the gun at other users", etc., but you seldom see specific gun operating instructions unless the gun is different from most other spearguns. In my opinion line release levers should reset automatically, but maybe that is not possible in that handle or there are situations where it may not easily go back by itself. A lot of band guns use the presence of the shaft tail in the trigger mechanism to control the automatic line release, like the "Cayman" does, but that is not an option with that "One Air" handle even though it is of the same styling. I assume the line release lever operates off the trigger position, either directly or indirectly, and with the trigger pulled right back the line release is forward during the shot, then everything should reset when you release the trigger. However if the line release lever stays forward then it can hold the trigger back and although it will not be at full trigger depression it can be somewhere in-between in a partially pulled condition. So the trigger as far as the gun is concerned is already being squeezed for the shot and then you load it! You can guess what happens next as you have had it happen. Whenever I use a pneumatic gun I always engage the safety before I load the gun as that action pushes the trigger to the ready to shoot position and the line release lever as well. Unlike band guns the sear lever in a rear handle pneumatic is not influenced by the position of the safety, whereas in most band guns the trigger mechanism will not reset if you engage the safety first because during relatch the trigger moves back fractionally (being pushed by the reverse rotation of the sear lever) and it cannot do that with a safety blocking it. Having not used an "Airbalete" I cannot say for sure, but applying the safety should force the line release lever to reset as well. If it does not then the safety's application will probably not have enough force to push the trigger to the ready to shoot position either. From Omer's message it appears that pulling the line release back with the gun already loaded means that it can then act as an alternative trigger! That sounds like a design problem for which the red warning tag is a "fix", but that is most likely the same situation with the "Airbalete" if the detachable handle is exactly the same on both guns.

It appears your gun had no inspection slip and as it was lacking its handle tag, which we now know about, my guess is your gun somehow got through QA without being given a full check as that is where any tags will go on the gun. The marks on the muzzle should have been enough to send the gun back from inspection for a new muzzle on a "high end" gun, so something has not been quite right from the beginning. I would not let that experience turn you off pneumatic spearguns, but my advice is to start with a proven model, particularly a shorter version, to learn the ropes before moving onto the longer and more exotic weapons. Muzzle loading is risky and it is the longer guns that impose the greatest risk, so to use them your loading technique needs to be well practiced.

While field testers find most of the pre-production speargun bugs, the early adopters pick up the rest (including initial factory production assembly bugs) and it is better not to be one of them if you can afford to wait for a while.