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Apologies to the Southafrican people

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
What interests me in the thread is that nobody has addressed the question of whether the speaker's assertion, as roughly translated, is true or false. Will, in fact, the young unemployed then loiter somewhere, get silly ideas, become criminals or get AIDS - or not? This is what I'd have thought would immediately follow - a discussion of whether this proposition is true or false. Silly me.

It has been posited that, ceteris paribus, a disjuncture between goals and legitimate means will increase the likelihood that an actor will resort to illegitimate means (or "deviance") to obtain the same goals. White, black, pink, yellow, male, female, employed, unemployed whatever (cf Merton's Social Structure and Anomie). But, I would hazard to say that structural functionalism is somewhat outmoded. As far as I am concerned, discussion of whether the "proposition" is true or false is mindless speculation. Of course, that is my beach bar opinion.

But, what do I know. I'm just a freediver-wannabe so my the value of my cent approaches zero. Reply as you wish. My skin is flame retardant.

The original post was posted in good spirit, and I appreciate that.

Regards,
 
Yesterday I bought a ticket to dahab for a start. :inlove

When are you heading sanso you will love it im sure. Are you doing a course or training/holiday?
 
Yesterday I bought a ticket to dahab for a start. :inlove

When are you heading sanso you will love it im sure. Are you doing a course or training/holiday?
I'm sure I will love it! :D

I'll be down there from September 29th untill October 13th - sadly I wasn't able to get the week after. But, well, can't have everything I guess.

I've had several courses this year, but who knows if I don't stack another one on top there? there would be enough time for an AIDA Instructor... You got me thinking there :D

I'll put up a short one in the apropriate forum to maybe get a meet-up together if anyone else is there..
 
Sanso

If you ever visit South Africa, take the trip to Soweto in an armoured vehicle. It is a tourist highlight now and you go with an armed guard.

It's certainly an eye-opener and possibly won't be what you expect. You will see plenty of loiterers, criminal-like looking people, sick people, poor people, squallor, filth and cardboard shacks, plenty of young teenage glue sniffers, and then, you will be taken to another area of Soweto where Winnie Mandela owns a few properties, the size and grandeur that i could never hope to own, and you will be in awe that they could actually be neighbours - it is the neighbourhood of the rich and famous of the activist years and holds a lot of history.

Do go listen to some African township jazz in a chabine and feel and hear the South African culture, and also sadness of the years of apartheid and how it has evolved. Speak to some locals of the area if you can, see the film Catch a Fire (for example).

I wasnt born in South Africa, i was born in Zambia and we emigrated to South Africa in 1975. Black people were required to have passes to enter our residential areas and we werent allowed to sit on each others bus stops or use each others ablution facilities. When you see the signs "Nie-Blankes" (non whites) on South African films, its not an exaggeration. In fact, I went to a private school in South Africa until we moved to the coast and my school was multi-racial. I brought a friend home for the weekend. My neighbours had a fit, she wasnt allowed to go on the same bus as me to go ice-skating together and yet, her father was 10 times as rich of all of us put together :(

We left South Africa in 1977 and went to Iran, where after a couple of years, the Ayatollah Khomeni asked us to leave (not so politely, in fact, his government took all our money and possessions.)

We returned to South Africa in 1980 and started again. Anti-apartheid activists were in full swing and heaven help you if you were caught. We watched the changes happen over time. I left South Africa in 1991, and returned just before the first democratic elections in 1994.

Speak to the people in Soweto about the elections if you can. I know lots of people who were intimidated into voting for certain political parties. There houses were burnt down if they were suspected of supporting anyone from "our side of the fence".

What your politician said may be outrageous indeed. But there is a small amount of truth. Did you know that South Africa is going to lose 25% of its work force in the next 5 years due to the spreading of HIV? And many of those people refuse treatment, and say that the witch doctor will provide a cure. Did you know that witch doctors have told HIV carriers that if they have sex with a virgin they will be cleansed of their HIV (hence all the rapings of young children and teenagers).

On the other hand, Black Empowerment is huge now. Black South Africans between the age of 25 and 40 are running banks, enterprises, and are driving towards success, now that they have the opportunity. There are many successfull individuals, and many of those were given spaces in companies years back when companies were forced to employ certain percentages of the ethnic population. many people grabbed that opportunity with both hands and are successful business people today.

There are though, many who are my age and upwards are the unfortunate product of the society I grew up in, and admittedly are unemployed or even unemployable. A lot of them lived in townships where you were constantly persecuted, women were raped, people were murdered, drug usage was heavy as was crime as there was no way to find employment and earn money other than to take it.

The "unemployable youth", seem to be involved in all these crime rings, (car hijacks, burglaries and rapings). There are not enough jobs to go around, what will they do with these people, and what will these people do with their lives? Its not like Europe where you can have rehab, job centres, training centres. A lot of these people are not interested, it's easy to belong to the crime rings and hijack people at gun point.. Just read the South African newspapers on a daily basis, you will get the feel. (new24.com e.g.). And there are millions of them.

I still remain positive about South Africa's future, as long as international pressure keeps up and the youth of SA keep fighting for their education and equality (and by that I mean all South Africans) and also use their brains to implement laws that work for everyone and not just for the majority. Also getting rid of Robert Mugabe as a neighbour would be a good step. (Sorry, did I just say that, I beg your pardon). rofl And perhaps a new president who believes that AIDS is actually caused by HIV, and is not some sickness derived from poverty :head but that it is actually sexually transmitted or though the usage of drugs :heads (jeez where did they find him??) rofl Talk to Miles's wife (Dr. Fish) if you can. she is a doctor in an emergency ward and she can tell you a horror story or two.

South Africa has one of the most complicated and intricate histories I know. there are many sides to its story and many many different view points. The corruption stories could go on for hours...

Visit it, dive it, drink it. See Cape Town and the garden route, see the safari, visit Zululand. It's fabulous. And there are plenty of Germans too ;) rofl

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0S8476b3QQ]YouTube - Township Jive-Ladysmith Black Mambazo[/ame]



 
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Sara,
I'll have to thank Mr. Öttinger for his foot-in-mouth. Otherwise I'd likely have missed Your input on this which is greatly apreciated. This is finally proof that everything that happens is good for something.
I'm not kidding by the way. Your post at least partly fills one of the many major gaps that my picture of the world still has.

Thank You for that.

Richard

P.S.: There is no question whatsoever that I want to do all that going to, diving, drinking, talking to and possibly shooting fish in southafrica. You just wait. I'll be there one day. :D
 
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Politicians in every country are basically the same type of people. Perhabs for a hand full most worship their god faithfully, named Power.
Politcians are there to polarize and rule.
For me most, if not all democracies are not serving their members but the same dominant minority Aldous Huxley was referring to. They understand the group mind and know the right formula's and understand that 80% wil go allong with any change.

Agreeing with Alan Watt (Cutting Through the Matrix with Alan Watt - Clearing the rubbish from the road to reality) the money system brings and promotes the worst people to the top. The psychopathic karacter will go any, ANY length to accumilate more power.
As a start I would like to suggest to have ANY person in aspireing positions of power in goverment, police, militairy, school etc. tested for psychopathic tendencies.
Start educating yourself, retreating to a 'second life' does not help the good, emphatic people.
If I remember correctly, it was Benjamin Franklin who said: "all evil needs to succeed is for the good people doing nothing"

Love, courage and water,

Kars
 
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Hi Sara it isn't just a book, but rather a website were one can download articles and mp3 'blubs' for free. After a long list of teachers, I consider Alan Watt my latest. His understanding of the world and history arround appears very deep to me. In fact his insights accompanied a change in my life. His recollection of history and factual information triggers questions of everything most people perceive of as normal and natural, simply because they are born into it and their parents did not warn about it.

Surely one can support Alan through buying his books, but it's only optional for those who want to learn more. He puts out so much information for free that it's plenty of learning an understanding to gain simply by listening to a few mp3's and reading a few articles.

Perhabs it's time to question before we're herded into furter devisions, wars and death. Perhabs it's time to stand up for life, become knowledgeble, understand the techniques used on 'the herd'. Really question what life is about without falling into the given paradigms. Take people as individuals instead of groupmembers, discover one's programming and go beyond. Well I could go on, but I'm sure you've got the picture :)

A friend of me mailed me this SA footage link, [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM]YouTube - Battle at Kruger[/ame] I think it's very educational and heartwarming to watch.

Love, courage and water!

Kars

ps. I don't get anything from any sale. I hope to get a diffrent, just future where I and my children can live, think, explore, learn and be free.
 
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The best and latest scandal in our politically correct government is as follows...
Our minister of health, wont even try to spell her name, who at the international AIDS convention made SA the laughing stock of the world by displaying lemons garlic potatos and such on our stand and saying that they can cure and prefent AIDS. Has just had a liver transplant after she arrived at the hospital sh*t faced drunk. Due to you guessed it, destroying her liver with excess drinking. It was also claimed that our president used his influance to bump her to the top of the transplant list. This has been made to go away within 2 or 3 weeks so now you dont hear of it anymore.
But back to the point of our young and unemployed as they put it... heres how I see it. Alot of them dont even bother to go to school, the grade 12 exams have been downgraded to such an extent that it should be easy to do, not that Id want to do that again rofl. They b*tch and moan if they fail but never finish high school, then the same happens when the said group does not get a job, but how do you expect to get somewhere if you dont go to the trouble to actually do something to get there. So they blame teachers, of which some with 30 years service earn less than I do :confused: What do they say you can take a horse to the water but you cant force it to drink...
Now some of the previously disadvantaged actually do get somewhere and all my respect to them, for example a freind with whom I did a temporary job after school speaks 13 native african languages and he went on to become a translater in the high court. We went for lunch at their house one day and they take better care of their things than alot of white people I know. What we actually lack in this country is respect, respect for each other and each others possesions and lives. And now Ill leave you with a joke that actually rings scarily true and here I sit with perhaps my foot in my mouth...

Math exams through the years...
In the 60s
A farmer sells a truck load of fire wood for a 100 rand.
Production cost is 4/5 of the price. What is the profit?

In the 70s
A farmer sells a truck load of fire wood for a 100 rand.
Expenses is 4/5 or 80 rand of the price. What is the profit?

In the 80s
A farmer sells a truck load of fire wood for a 100 rand.
Production cost is 80 rand. Did he make a profit?

In the 90s
A farmer sells a truck load of fire woos for a 100 rand.
Expenses is 80 rand and profit is 20 rand.
Underline 20.

In 2000s
A farmer chops down a beatifull forest to make a profit of 20 rand. Before he can sell it his truck gets hijacked and he gets killed in the process. The hijacker sells the wood for 50 rand and the truck for 800 rand. He thus makes a profit of only 850 rand. Explain why apartheid is to blame!

O well its got to come from somewhere hey and the truth rings out in the strangest ways...

Now Ill go sit in the corner with my foot in my mouth :)
 
Hmmm, interesting to see SA politics discussed on DB.
I am what appears to be a rare SA species, a diver and very politically interested
and active person.
I appreciated Sara's informative input, but in general I find it difficult to stomach some
of the very simplified analyses of where SA is today.
Sure, we have huge challenges, AIDS, poverty, corruption, crime...
but it's too simple to say people should just try harder.
With our history (I am Afrikaans) I believe we have to really stay humble and try to all pull together in the same direction.
God help us if we start to judge now!!!
Anyway, I spend my time making films about these issues, and then escape into apnea when it all gets too much.
Perfect balance!

Hanli
 
Hi Hunlee

I simplify as its too long, emotional and complicated to get into long discussions about it, especially on a diving forum where we dont want to get hugely involved in political discussions as it can get messy. I am not judging, I am just pointing out a few facts and feelings of my own.

One of my best friends is an Afrikaner although she went to English school with us. My sister-in-law is also Afrikaans. They have two entirely different points of view. One is 100% Christian and the other... well... lets say her father was AWB. (now that was hard for us to stomach). ;)

You are right in saying we/they should all pull together, unfortunately though the people who think in this manner are not holding seats in the government.

HANLI FOR PRESIDENT!!!! :D

Are you involved in the making of the new film about Nelson Mandela's jail warden? That should be an interesting watch.

Hmmm, interesting to see SA politics discussed on DB.
I am what appears to be a rare SA species, a diver and very politically interested
and active person.
I appreciated Sara's informative input, but in general I find it difficult to stomach some
of the very simplified analyses of where SA is today.
Sure, we have huge challenges, AIDS, poverty, corruption, crime...
but it's too simple to say people should just try harder.
With our history (I am Afrikaans) I believe we have to really stay humble and try to all pull together in the same direction.
God help us if we start to judge now!!!
Anyway, I spend my time making films about these issues, and then escape into apnea when it all gets too much.
Perfect balance!

Hanli
 
Hiya, as I said Island Sands, you tried to paint a nuanced picture, I appreciate that!
Sure, it's too complex to even approach on this forum, all I want is all our aquatic friends on this forum who haven't been to SA should know that there is so much more to it than just, 'they should... and they shouldn't.'
But you know all that.
No, I'm not involved in the film you refer to, it's called Goodbye Bafana, they did however shoot it on my street in Muizenberg, and I had the great shock of walking out the door in my wetsuit, surfboard under arm, right into SA in the 60's...
Bizarre!! :)
I'll let you know when my film is in the ready, release one year from now! Hold thumbs!
 
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Nice to hear people are careing about each other and humanity.

Deepthinker, I don't think SA is the only country with a dumbed down population.
The US is also in bad shape, where now 1/5, 20%!!! of the children under 15 cannot locate the USA on a worldmap. But they surey know what the football scores, the latest fashion and gosips are!

Just look up on You Tube: "Miss Teen USA 2007 South Carolina"
 
Just heard on the news... "Police run out of rubber bullets in Soweto"
Theyre striking for housing and a few other reasons and the strike got out of hand :rcard
 
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