Are these typos?

[Pezman]

Looking forward to David Lee's attempt (late November or December ?)

90M no fins seems insane! I am interested in the calculation that you used. I would have guessed that the round trip max for the no fins constant ballast would be about 80% of the dynamic, giving a figure like 65m -- and maybe I would have bumped up the fudge factor as the diver went deeper since there is more glide time in descent, so say 70m.

At any rate, the idea of a person going to 90m w/o any assistance is amazing.

 

[JimGlynn]

Wouldn' t the weight of the water at extreme depth, coupled with the blood shunt make it a very difficult comparison to a dynamic?
Topi's dive is truly amazing. I wonder what his no fins dynamic is. Does any body know?
Jim

 

[Alun]

limits of unassisted constant weight...

i've asked Rudi about this in my deeperblue interview. he had some interesting things to say about it... coming up in part II... very shortly.

 

[ivan]

Originally posted by efattah
I think Topi's 60m and Stig 166m no-fins dynamic share the title of most amazing freediving records ever.

If you do the math, Stig should be able to hit at least 90m+ in no-fins constant weight!


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

hi

I still think M stepaneks dive to 93m is the best ever. Now Stig doing 90m with no fins would be EXTREME

cheers

 

[Gerald]

Unassisted & Hypothermic Diving System

First of all, after 34 years of freediving I can assert that unassisted constant ballast is a very satisfying approach to freediving, I have been doing it for ages ...

Secondly, I am fascinated about the body's ability to adapt to cold water. Even though we are living in relatively cold climate here in Austria I am eyed with suspicion if I dive in a lake with something less than 5mm (jacket AND trousers of course).
Then I dared to reduce it to a 3mm Jacket, thereby gaining the advantage of not having to use weights. The surface temp in our lakes in the summer is usually around 20-23°C.

@-5mt: 16°C
@-10mt: 10°C
@-20mt: 7°C
@-30mt: 5-6°C ...

Interesting, the leg muscles still work after exposure of more than one minute to these kind of temperatures. Sometimes I dare to dive with my bathing suit to 20mt, protecting just my head with a neoprene hood. Theoretically I could go deeper that way but I am still careful waiting for the right kind of opportunity.

I find I am in much better shape at the end of a dive in unprotected mode, ie 3mm Jacket and bare legs compared to a dive in protected mode to the same depth with a two piece 5mm suit and 3 Kilos of weight.

Question @eric or anybody experienced in this area:
Do I benefit from the "Hypothermic Diving System" in unprotected mode or is it just the fact that I am dragging less weight and material around?

regards
Gerald

 

[efattah]

I believe that when diving unprotected in cold water, the benefit is MUCH MORE than just less neoprene. The vasoconstriction & diving response is far stronger. I think the real key to learning how to go deeper is to learn to tolerate the cold and dive without any suit; NO HOOD either, especially the head must get cold.

I also have tried your config, just the 3mm top, no pants, and I did a joke easy 61m dive with a somersault at the end! It is great because I stay warm enough to do many dives, compared to no suit at all, where I get cold much faster.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[Jon]

How do you train yourself to get past the stinging "ice cream headaches" of diving without a hood? I could see just wearing a hooded vest for such dives, but to give up a hood is very painfull, at least for me, in 5 (C) water.

 

[JimGlynn]

Don't you guys get really violent contractions when you dive in cold water? I know I do.
Jim

 

[efattah]

When I did my 88m pb with a monofin, my pb in dynamic was 125m, but I think that I could have done 140m in dynamic, and that probably would have felt similar to the 88. I once figured out a formula to convert between dynamic and constant:
Dyn = (4/3)*CW + 22

This converts an 88m cw dive to a 139m dynamic. With no fins, I did that 35m dive, and my best in dynamic without fins was a meager 67m, which felt about the same difficulty as my 35m dive. Using the formula, a 35m cw dive converts to a 68.6m dynamic, so the formula works again.

However, to converts Stig's distance, we need to remember that his distance was actually significantly less than 166m, because of the seven push-offs from the wall. Perhaps it converts to about 140m with no turns/push-offs?

Then,
140 = (4/3)*CW + 22

CW = 88.5m

If you assume it converts to 150m, then
CW = 96.0m

I think the depth should be further penalized due to the fact that buoyancy changes are harder to overcome without fins. Even so, it's pretty clear that 166m without fins in a 25m pool is at least equivalent to an 80m dive, possibly as much as 96m.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[efattah]

Ice cream headaches and violent contractions can both be avoided. My first attempt at immersion in 8C water was simply face-down floating. By the 2-minute mark my whole body was out of control, jaw clenched uncontrollably, major headache, etc... then, it all went away, and I stayed in for 18 minutes. After that first time, I didn't get headaches anymore, and I never 'lost control' of any muscles.

It is true that you get huge contractions during apnea in freezing water, this is mainly due to a reduced CO2 storage capacity. The sad story is that you must ventilate far more aggressively in freezing water---and this leads to dangers! In essence, in freezing water you can breathe more aggressively without suffering the problems of hyperventilation. YOU CAN STILL OVERBREATHE, so PLEASE be careful!

In fact, at this very moment, I'm 're-learning' to breathe-up for dives in freezing water without a suit, because everything I used to know about breathing up no longer applies.

For example, CO2 storage capacity is so dramatically reduced that personally I can't make my fingers tingle no matter how much I hyperventilate in cold water without a suit.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[Alun]

i like the sound of diving in a 3mil top with no 'pants' as you say over there. (here 'pants' means 'underpants' - so i shall say - diving in a 3mil top with no 'trousers').

i'm interested in giving this a go... it sounds like it would be very beneficial due to the additional vasoconstriction in the legs and having no resistance to movement. my only question is whether it's necessary to shave all the leg hair off?? does leg hair generate a significant amount of drag?!

regarding the no suit stuff... this is something i have tried out. my longest immersion was 20mins in 9C. personally, i experienced no ice-cream headaches at all. don't ask me why though! also, for some reason, i didn't shiver for 15mins. that was the point where i should have got out, but i decided to stay in for another 5. to my surprise, i felt no feelings of discomfort during the immersion. believe it or not, it was quite a pleasant experience. i'm sure other people who have done it, like Eric, would say the same thing.

 

[JimGlynn]

Are we talking no pants or suit for constant with fins, without fins, or both? I thought flooding ones's sinuses with water for eq. was off the charts, but this takes the cake. I have 5% body fat and REALLY hate to be cold.
Jim

 

[efattah]

Sebastien Murat insists that we NOT shave any hair off of our bodies, because the hair amplifies the sense of water flowing over the skin, which further amplifies the dive response.

I'm so addicted to diving with no trousers/pants that even in winter I'm thinking of trying to dive with double tops (5mm+3mm = 8mm) and no trousers/pants.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[Alun]

really?

i can't see many girls being too keen on that idea!

that must be a difficult thing to 'prove' though? is that something he's noticed from his personal experience?

using the same reasoning, wouldn't we expect a stronger diving reflex when moving through water that we do when motionless in water with all other factors being equal - i would find that result quite surprising.

i think i can see how having hairs on your legs may help you to sense laminar flow though.

with the no trousers/pants thing.... presumably, those of you who do it wear a rubber belt to help minimise water flushing through?

 

[efattah]

My Elios suit fits so well that I haven't needed to wear any belt to block water flow (just a neck weight), but with a thicker top I'd obviously need a belt.

The main disadvantage of the bare legs config is the extreme instability during the sinking phase due to the center of buoyancy being ahead of the center of gravity, even with a neck weight on.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[Gerald]

The end of this thread is better than it's beginning

Thanks to all of You for the great responses concerning diving reflexes in cold water. My experience seems to support efattahs theories.

To summarize my conjecture: If the core of my body is warmed up, my oxygen consumption will not be increased significantly, no matter how cold the ambient water is. However I have to make sure that my body core temperature doesn't drop, and this has a lot to do with what I eat. Only if the body core temperature drops, I am likely to consume more oxygen.

Please compare the following two articles on purposed dieting to stay warm in cold water, one by Peter Scott and another one by Steve Walker, a channel swimmer who explains how important it is to acquire fat insulation on purpose. Alison Streeter (another Streeter ) swam across the English Channel around 40 times and at one time she did 3 crossings (non-stop). Apart from the incredible athletic achievement, the fact that she lasted in water-temperatures around 60°F (15-16°C) for 34 hours and 40 minutes unharmed is proving the incredible adaptability of the human body to cold water. Of course the goals to effective freediving and to long distance swimming in cold water are somewhat different but it' still interesting to check out the link to Steve Walkers article.

cheers
Gerald

 

[ApneaBlue]

Originally posted by Pezman
Jim (and Cayman),

Thanks for the flowers, but the real hero here is Eric F. If I dived in 5C water, the shrinkage alone would qualify me for some kind of transgender record, regardless of the realized depth.

I almost died when I hit that thermocline this weekend w/o a suit and that was probably over 10C.

At any rate, I'm glad to see that no-fins is coming into vogue.

Howdy y'all...Man, been in Oklahoma too long...Time to go home for a pre record training session.

It is down right disrespectful for Tanya to call her 35m ucb a world record....She was tired? whatever...it's like this performance car club I am a memeber of...everytime someone dyno's their car and posts the dyno sheet they say the car was in the worse conditions....Yes, I did 35m but I was tired

Well, if that's the case then I will post that Yas did a 30m unassisted a few days ago when she had her guts on a table 4 weeks ago removing a pancreatic tumor

...Gurlfren is bad! in a good way that is....at least with FREE records match or exceed the AIDA/IAFD current record/s...I never have time to get involved in freediving politics...I just barely have the time to train for my dives...
But definately, seeing stuff like that totall makes me want to beat the living crap out of someone

brathe...calm down....woooosaahhhhhhhhhhh....there, better

Hope you guys are doing good and staying safe...
Will be updating ApneaBlue.com in a month or so...

Later,
Me

 

[JimGlynn]

Nice to hear from you, David. I know I can speak for all of us when I say we totally respect the heck out of you and Yasemin and look forward to some more great video footage of ucb records.
Jim

 

[neshamah]

Hi david

Hi David . ..Keep the good work..

saludos


Daniel.