Beeing afraid of max attempts ...

[sebastien murat]

I don't believe you can objectively analyze anything during a performance dive...there's just too much information overload and often the thoughts and feeling during a performance are unlike anything one experience during training, even at max effort in the latter.

 

[Canetoad Films]

Scorp, have experienced this, and have seen it happen with others, almost one for one. I am with you on the discomfort when it comes to getting those distances, I do all my big swims first swim of the night, (no warm up) so I start the discomfort at 60m. It is that lap, I find the hardest. 50m to 100m. I don't think there is a single solution for everyone... except keep working at it. I know what works for me is, expecting and saying "Hello" to the discomfort and then only allowing me to make a distance decision after I turn at 100m. That stops that 80m waivering. Same thing at the turn at 150. If I arrive at 150, I try to turn every time... then make any decision on perception changes I get when I am starting to get close to my limit. But this solution is only sensible if you have experienced safety divers. I've never BOed or Sambaed, but I have taken my time building up.

 

[azapa]

Here is another simple trick I am playing with: do lots of semi-max swims (like 80 to 90% PB) with a small and deliberate impediment. Maybe too little lead, the "wrong" suit, not enough relaxation etc.

In the name of research for this thread I did 90% of PB swim last night, but with a mask, as opposed to googles and nose clip, I also did nothing before the swim, just drove to the pool, put my suit on and got in and swam.

Now, imagine I try a PB next week, with the right rest before hand, AND the googles and nose clip? It's like a secret weapon that gives confidence when you really need it.

 

[sebastien murat]

Azapa...no disrespect but you've got it backwards.

What you're doing is adding extra stress which technically speaking improve performance and reduces your burn rate; the reduced burn rate increases tolerance to hypoxia (dose/duration), so that for the same degree of hypoxia you can maintain consciousness for longer. Now, if you take your sweet time, relax, maybe even warm-up, i.e., de-stress, then your performances should technically be inferior and the risk of LOC increased.

This topic has been discussed ad nauseum over the years and is a typical approach employed by many divers, who equate de-stress as enhanced performance. This approach may feel easier, but the outcome is lose, lose.

 

[azapa]

no disrespect taken Seb.

You have quite nicely explained why I can do this stuff (jump in pool and swim with no prep and dodgy gear) easily, but, fall apart at a competition or "planned" max attempt, when I try to do this "better" (rest, right gear, long breathe up).

 

[aris ioannidis]

nice thread!

I think we all go through the negative-thoughts-phase somewhere in the middle of the dive. You just need to aknowledge it and expect it. After you go through that phase it gets easier. Discomfort eases and then you need to remain alert and monitor for hypoxia signs. As they say down under, HTFU!

 

[maui400]

Seb.: On competitions you always see people lying on their mats relaxing, napping, listening to music, etc. before their max attempt.
So in your words this is counter productive?

 

[sebastien murat]

As in life most people take the low and easy road...they want results but don't really want to pay full price. Who like the feeling of running a 400m flat chat...few are so masochistic. Sure, after the performance, in retrospect you can conjure-up any story you like that it felt great, but that's usually clouted by a great performance result.

In short, it makes no physiologic sense. The results I've and I other have gotten, as well experiments in animals are unequivocal: to obtain your absolute best result, metabolic rate must be close to basal (or below if you know how). To achieve that means: no warm up, surprise (check-out the anticipatory exercise response), very early morning dives (sparrows fart and not after breakfast!), no stretching, no massage. But you've got to be immersed just long enough to shift the venous pool to the lungs. My opinion is that your venous stores, which are comparatively low in O2, and largely reside in the periphery but make up some 2/3 of your blood volume, can probably be arterialized (oxygenated) and enhance you overall blood O2 stores (see the run-in I had with Simon Mitchell years ago); cold-induced peripheral vasoconstriction will help to speed up the process => exposed legs and arms especially. In a nutshell...

 

[sebastien murat]

In my experience you have to stressed and very motivated by the belief that you (realistically) can

 

[esom]

yes. but the experience of performing very well without expectations, with which kars not at all stands alone with, can be seen seperated from explanations arguing with stress. there must be something about this which makes up for the performance diminishing comfort (not to be obliged to perform which goes along with leaving expectations aside produces comfort)

maybe levels of training play a role here?

 

[timm]

I like to have something to focus the mind on, and split the dive into sections, staying relaxed through the start upto contractions and focusing on being loose, then telling myself I am focused and and eyes open looking at the line for the next period from 55 to 145 or so, and then focusing on what I need to do towards the end of the dive. If my mind has something to focus on the negative thoughts don't creep in so easy, and if/when they do I always have something to go back to, and just tell myself no, you aren't coming up focus on the thought at hand.

Does that make any sense!

The other thing I have done is decide upon a close distance every time before i get in, and visualise it, even 55m, and then never deviate from it. Have done 3 months of training before and achieved my chosen distance every time, 2 - 3 days a week, gave me huge amounts of confidence, maybe too much where you can program yourself to go to something you shouldn't that day!

I love the no warm up dynamics, the pressure before the comp top, makes me smile, the rush of cold over your face, the different sensations and trying to stay dreamy until ct's, the focus after ct's and the sense of accomplishment at the end. If I could only take that to depth!

Tim

 

[Simos]

As in life most people take the low and easy road...they want results but don't really want to pay full price. Who like the feeling of running a 400m flat chat...few are so masochistic. Sure, after the performance, in retrospect you can conjure-up any story you like that it felt great, but that's usually clouted by a great performance result.

In short, it makes no physiologic sense. The results I've and I other have gotten, as well experiments in animals are unequivocal: to obtain your absolute best result, metabolic rate must be close to basal (or below if you know how). To achieve that means: no warm up, surprise (check-out the anticipatory exercise response), very early morning dives (sparrows fart and not after breakfast!), no stretching, no massage. But you've got to be immersed just long enough to shift the venous pool to the lungs. My opinion is that your venous stores, which are comparatively low in O2, and largely reside in the periphery but make up some 2/3 of your blood volume, can probably be arterialized (oxygenated) and enhance you overall blood O2 stores (see the run-in I had with Simon Mitchell years ago); cold-induced peripheral vasoconstriction will help to speed up the process => exposed legs and arms especially. In a nutshell...

Thanks for sharing your knowledge Seb - I am not an expert in freediving so I am not doubting but simply trying to understand your rationale. What I am not understanding 100% is:

1. I would have thought that stress would naturally increase one's metabolic rate?

2. You might be right and venous blood can be arterialised if you get in cold water. Couldn't be though the case that you might actually benefit from warm water prior to the dive (vasodilation, higher HR, lower BP) and then dive in cold water which would cause the opposite effect?

I would have thought that a good way of ensuring as much of your blood is oxygenated as possible would be to increase blood flow and HR before the dive and then drop these as sharply as possible as soon as you are in apnea (cold water etc) to conserve O2, push blood to core organs via vasoconstriction and make muscles work unaerobically and increase BP. I can maybe see the argument for vasoconstriction before the dive but surely higher blood flow should help?

 

[sebastien murat]

There is no contradiction between vasoconstriction and an elevated cardiac output/hear rate/blood-flow. They are not the same thing. You can have very high BP, HR and blood-flow to vital organs and low blood-flow to peripheral tissues. Indeed, high HRs before a dive (stress) are correlated with a more pronounced DR and performance. Think of it like this: if you speed up blood flow and reduce peripheral O2 consumption by diverting blood flow away from such tissues then you end-up `charging´ the blood with O2. But its not just about speeding up blood flow, centralization of blood-volume in the lungs matters also.

I think its difficult to expound the finer aspects of cardiovascular physiology unless people have a good grasp of the basics.

 

[Haydn]

If 100 meters is a barrier, simply remove the barrier. Spend the next three months snorkel swimming 200 meters. Instead of doing serious breath hold pool work, spend hours doing the distance. After say 100 x 200 meter swims, 100m will be nothing.

At the same time, train the transitions of a dynamic. ie get used to how it feels going from easy to effort (you say it happens at 50m), also get used to how it feels from effort to struggle (somwhere around 75). Do 16 x 25 meter dynamics only. (the distance is no where near frightening on purpose). The first one, take 10 long breaths, the 2nd take 9 breaths. By the time you are down to 7 or 6 breaths, you will feel the first transition. The important thing is this, you will have already done 4 or 5 lengths very peacefully and the transition is smooth, you feel it coming gently, and then the 25 is finished. You do the next 25 and feel it gently again, but a little more anxiety and then the 25 is over. Repeat it until you are down to 3 breaths and you will feel the transition develop into the struggle, but it only happens for one length.

Then, you are half way through the routine. You work up from 3 to 4 breaths, this lenmgth will be a total struggle, as will the next and maybe the next. But then you are back up to 5 then 6 then 7 breaths and you recognise the transitions again.

The thing is, you will have trained maybe 5 or 6 individual lengths,each at a real struggle and all within a 20 minute session. You cannot duplicate the transitions and so much struggle by doing 125m maximums. This session will give you many opportunities to recognise the transitions and train especially for the last 25m of a maximum. You will find the ogre disappears because you realise in fact you can struggle for much much longer than you ever thought, when you know exactkly where you are in the various parts of the swim, especially the last 25m of it.

Then say in three months, before you try your next max, do a gentle 30/60 minute swim an hour or two before (maybe multiple 150s with 3o seconds rests). Then get dressed and go through a dry breathing warm up. Expect to reach the 100 without much stress and see where you get to after that.

Whats important is that you stop doing the stressfull max efforts, otherwise simply the thought of one, will add to the stress.

 

[Simos]

There is no contradiction between vasoconstriction and an elevated cardiac output/hear rate/blood-flow. They are not the same thing. You can have very high BP, HR and blood-flow to vital organs and low blood-flow to peripheral tissues. Indeed, high HRs before a dive (stress) are correlated with a more pronounced DR and performance. Think of it like this: if you speed up blood flow and reduce peripheral O2 consumption by diverting blood flow away from such tissues then you end-up `charging´ the blood with O2. But its not just about speeding up blood flow, centralization of blood-volume in the lungs matters also.

I think its difficult to expound the finer aspects of cardiovascular physiology unless people have a good grasp of the basics.

Thank you for the explanation I got it - I was more referring to the comment on cold-induced vasoconstriction which i assumed would also lower HR but maybe that's a wrong assumption to make especially if you have stress raising HR at the same time.

 

[sebastien murat]

For those with a need to understand the mechanics.....

The initial response to cold, in the vast majority of the body regions, is an increase in HR, which then reverts to baseline over time. Further, provided the core isn't compromised and only the shell is cooled, HR down-regulates in line with a retracted vascular tree. However, if you then add stress to the equation, HR necessarily increases, but this doesn't mean blood flows in any great quantities to the shell (which includes the extremities). This is the perfect state to begin a freedive. Of course if swimming work is planned from the outset, to overcome buoyancy, then there is an anticipatory vasodilation, which is needless to say slight, considering the power of cold in inducing vasoconstriction. In aerobically very fit individuals this response is magnified, meaning that their muscles will rob them of O2 to a greater extent than in unfit individuals. And this is further accentuated by the work of swimming, which once again leads to a stronger exercise (vasodilatory) response in those fit individuals. Having said all that, the tug-o-war that goes on between the (vasodilatory) exercise and (vasoconstrictive) dive response is really individual geared and so, it's not so straight forward.

 

[sebastien murat]

And like I said, if the wall is a barrier, simply shift the starting point or shift down the wall

 

[Mullins]

I and a few other divers I know get very sore legs in the days prior to a big dive, e.g. a record attempt. Real effect (vasoconstriction) or imaginary?

 

[esom]

@ mullins

passive sore legs? or just by walking around? or especially sore legs while diving?

 

[Mullins]

Passive sore legs