Beyond 6:30 in static apnea

[bevan dewar]

alastair, i've often thought about adding in an empty lung or two to my static or dynamic warmup. i use them in my cw warmup, and i like the fact that they take less time. my worry, after reading old posts by eric f, is that one might accumulate an O2 debt by going into deep tissue stores. his theory seemed to favour many sub-4 minute holds over a few 4min+ (or empty lung) holds where ones P.O2 drops quite low. i'm hoping he or anyone else could chip in here. cheers
bevan

 

[laminar]

O2 store depletion is a good point, but I think it is relative.
Eric seemed to be fine with repetitive 5;30s at the last competiton. I did repetitive 3min statics before my official static (in which I pulled up WAY to early at 5:31--Eric F. can attest to that). I want to experiment with this idea. The repetitive statics have several advantages: 1) makes the warm-up much simpler to do, no calculations of static and breathe-up times, no critical timing, you just do statics over and over until it's time to go. 2) the psychological effect of doing the same static over and over, as it gets easier and easier, is considerable. (it's like doing the same free weight exercises at the same intensity until you do them easier over days and weeks (training effect) before raising the intensity). 3) The stress of the warm-up itself is greatly reduced.

If I was to add exhale statics, they would be long before the official warm-up, or right at the beginning to give the body the physiological inputs it needs to prepare for hypoxia (splenic contraction, etc). Pulling off a long exhale static also does wonders for psychology.

Anyway, more experimentation coming up soon....

Pete
Vancouver, BC

 

[Matija]

Hello everyone!

I am a sezonal freediver & I train yoga, breathing techniqe such as pranayama. I have managed to get my heart rate 5 bits per minute, but in water I managed just 30 bits per minute. What kind breathing techniques have other divers?

 

[laminar]

Time for an update!

Eric and I have been "training" twice a week at the UBC (site of the Worlds static competition this summer) with interesting results.

I realized early on that I had a fear of pushing beyond 5:30. So many statics have ended at 5:30 clean and with plenty of air to spare. At the regionals I pulled up clean and the recovery was such that I started talking and goofing around right afterwards. Time? 5:31.

So, I felt like I needed to push beyond that magic mark of 5:30.

Two weekends ago, I went to the pool and did 6'09" with a blackout at the end. I had overventilated (still experimenting with breath up) and although I was able to lift my head out of the water, Eric had to make sure I didn't do a face plant. My recovery was also horrible. But I was ecstatic! (pardon the pun! :duh ) I had conquered the barrier. After a rest, I went again and this time made 5'54" with a samba. Even so, I felt like I had conquered my demons....

Last weekend, I went to the pool and it was unbelievable for me.
I had been experimenting with warm-ups of 3'30", 4'30" etc...

First breath hold of the session: 5'48" a new pb in the pool!
I rested for ten minutes and then went again: 6'02" another pb!
My contractions were much earlier but they were enjoyable because they only very gradually got worse and unlike the previous weekend I was clear headed enough to signal and evaluate my condition as I approached six minutes.

Now last night:
1st breathhold of the night: 6'11" another pb. Elevator man was watching (Canadian static record holder) so it was inspiring to have him around.
2nd breath hold: 6'26". I finally beat my dry static pb of 6'11".
Again the contractions were easy to take and I was completely conscious the whole time, even in the struggle stage.

My breath up was as follows:
1st static: 4min, 3-4 breaths then 20 second hold, repeat, no purges.
Same for 2nd static, except for 6 mins.

Elevatorman wanted me to do a third static after the 6'26" and I think I will next time.

Needless to say, I am stoked!!!!!!

Pete
Vancouver, BC

 

[Bill]

Pete
Congrats. The schedule isn't clear. Can you spell it out for a dummy? Do you follow a rigid timing or is it flexible? Did you warm up, stretch or anything? Are the numbers of your team mates classified?
I've changed almost all of my training and I'd like to experiment some more but I couldn't get Eric's attention. Are you using any of his new ideas, is he? The new short breathe ups for O2 tables seem to be working. They are harder to do, I feel better after and my performance is more erratic than ever.
Aloha
Bill

 

[ivan]

hi

Nice work on those Wet statics Pete I couldn't get those numbers in the wet.

Today however after not having done any statics for at least 6 months and my last Pb set like 8months ago I did a dry session today to see how it is.

this is how it looked

30sec breathe up 4:20 static contractions at 2:30
30sec BU 5:10 static contractions at 3:00
1min BU 5:40 static contractions at 3:30
1min BU 6:15 static contractions at 4:00
2min BU 6:30 static contractions at 4:30
2min BU 6:30 static contractions at 4:45
1min BU 6:45 static (PB) contractions at 4:30

as you can see after doing the 2 breathups of 2mins I went back to 1min the reason for this is when doing a 2min breathup I find that the contractions are much harder to handle and I get a feeling of darkness as if the world is closing in on me :duh
With the 1min BU the contactions are much more pleasurable.

Although this was a PB which is awsome I was a little dissapointed because after the 4th go when I did 6:15 after a 1min Bu I thought I was gonna hit 7mins by the end of the session for sure because that 6:15 static was VERY EASY, but things got worse when I did the 2min BU. Maybe I should do all the statics apart from the first 2 with 1min BU and forget about the 2min BU all together

cheers

 

[laminar]

Hi Bill,

Here are the details:

In the beginning I decided not to use a rigid breathe-up sequence because I had to admit that I really hadn't found a good routine. I started out doing two warm ups of 3:30 (test to see how I'm doing) and 4:30 with contractions before going for the maximum static. That was my old pattern. This was erratic and I found the contractions difficult and on several occasions I aborted because I was a) too acidic or b) too alkaline. My breathing pattern, was a inhale-hold 5-8 seconds, exhale pattern with some easy purges before starting the static.
-----
Jan 31: 6'09" blackout 5'54" samba (1:30pm and 3:30 pm)

1st set: I started with a CO2 table on the pool deck for 6min (2min hold, exhale, inhale, 2min hold, exhale, inhale, 2min hold), contractions very uncomfortable, chest and lungs still tender from friday's workout.
First static in water: 3min breathe up, made 5'00" (contraction at 3:45-4min? and they felt way better than dry)
Second static, 4min b-up, 6'09" black out (assisted at the surface, 1st contraction at 4:47--obviously too alkaline, I overventilated). Last memory is at 5'40". Bad recovery technique according to Eric. Wore 3mm Heiwa t

1 hour rest while Eric went***

2nd set: changed breathing to saturation breathing 1 breath/25 seconds
first static: 3'30" (contraction at 2'45")
second static: 4'30" (contractions at 3'40") -- Happier with less alkalinity and earlier contractions
third static: 5'00" min b-up, 3 forced exhalations to finish b-up, 5'54" and a samba (contraction at 4'17") (unassisted) Eric said "don't forget to breathe" I took a gulp of air and held it, which got me through the samba without blacking out.
----

Feb 4:
Did 4'30", 4'45" with contractions, max aborted at 3'30"...very tired and contractions difficult (body too acidic?) (Static session at 10pm)

----

Feb 7: 5'48", 6'02"

Saturday session: Went first, decided I would follow similar pattern of 3'30, 4'30", max.... figure that my 5'00" first static on Jan 31 was due to excessive alkalinity and that I should use the breathe up I had tried on the more normal 2nd set (5'54" samba). But something cool happened...
1st warm-up (intended 3:30): Spent 4 minutes breathing up in the new way: (3-4 breaths without pursed lips--I open my mouth really wide to inhale without effort and then exhale quickly by letting my diaphragm relax, instead of the long slow prolonged exhale I usually do. Then after 3-4 or four such breaths I hold the inhale for 20 seconds or so, whatever feels good. On each of the 3-4 breath cycles I can feel that I've blown off some CO2 but then the 20 second hold seems to bring things back to normal). I got my first contraction at around 3'45", I think, and I was able to resist the next one for a long time and keep going until I had made 5'00" then I thought, well, it still feels good, and so when Eric announced 5'30" I wanted to put that barrier behind me for good. I came up at 5'48" very, very surprised! This was supposed to be my warm-up!

2nd static: Breathe-up for five minutes or so, contraction at 4'10" or something, 6'02".

-----

Feb 10: 6'11", 6'26"

Tuesday: Went first again (8:20 pm).
1st warm-up: This time I was feeling confident that I could hit a good time on the first hold. 4min breathe-up as above, first contraction at 3'38", 6'11". Could resist the contractions for much longer than usual.
2nd static: 6min breathe-up after 4 min of rest just talking with Eric and Luc. First contraction at 4'05" (?). Finished at 6'26". I pull my ears above water and put my hands on the pool edge at around 5'45" to make sure I can hear Eric and for an easier recovery. My ears were ringing when I came up so I think I pulled up in time!

-----
Next time:
-I want to try more statics per set, four or five in a row and see what happens.
-Continue with the intuitive breathe-up patterns

Overall Comments:
-this is the first time I've done regular pool wet static practice on a weekly basis (twice a week) so no doubt that is a factor in my progress
-I seem to have jumped suddenly in my CO2 tolerance
-I am also doing apnea and sprint intervals in the gym twice a week for cross-training with good progress there, too
-No diving this month
-Confidence level is way up
-I'm eating well and trying to be alkaline in general by eating fruits and vegetables leading up to the static sessions, but trying to keep a neutral or slightly acidic blood profile
-no more hyperventilation, purges, or rapid breathing
-much longer intervals between statics makes for a more relaxing training experience without any apparent loss in performance
-I am feeling that wet statics are profoundly more relaxing than dry now, but that could be just because of the positive anchors being established in the last few sessions...

Eric is doing well also: latest results, 6'51 clean, 7'00" surface bo (but he was too alkaline and predicted he would not be clean) I'll let him explain.

Any thoughts? Questions?
I'm really curious to discover how long this improvement trend will continue and when I'll reach a plateau. 7'00" is possible and probably not too far away (I hope!), but we'll see. More experimentation is ahead.

Pete
Vancouver, BC

 

[Bill]

Pete
Thanks for the report. What a wealth of information. After that, your folder is almost as thick as Eric's. Your comments are 'spot on', I think.
When you mentioned "apnea and sprint intervals", it dawned on me that I've done some sort of interval training for almost 30 years. I wonder.
The obious conclusion here is; since no one method works better (training, preparation or technique), we aren't any where near the limit.
Aloha
Bill
P.S. Good luck on the seven.

 

[laminar]

Another update

I was really looking forward to Saturday's session. Unfortunately, by Thursday night I could tell I was coming down with something. I had a sore throat and felt off. I took measures to reinforce my immune system and decided to go anyway. Tyler was in town, so that was a nice surprise since I hadn't seen him since the Xmas holiday when I got my face bashed in by his surfboard (I've already forgiven him).

Anyway, we arrived at after 2pm (later than usual) and it was decided that I would go first. I was skeptical about my performance given my health--but I still wanted to do as many statics as possible.

Same pattern as before:

4min breathe-up: 4 breaths + 20 hold (strangely enough, I found I was getting too alkaline--light headed--during this breathe up--which made me worry about my recovery, which is why I came up early.
1st static: 5'38" (first contraction at around 3'30")

5min breathe-up: same lightheadedness
2nd static: 5'29" (I didn't feel as good during the static, uncomfortable and my mind was wandering all over the place)

10min rest talking with Tyler and Eric

5min breathe-up: this time I tried taking two breaths then holding for longer than 20 seconds, which seemed to work better
3rd static: 6'00" first contraction at 3'18" for 2'42" of contractions (a new best)

5min breathe-up: same as #3
4th static: 5'29" this time I was running out of steam and feeling depleted in general. I couldn't focus my mind on the task at hand.

I am pretty amazed by the results despite the fact that I am now sick (the next day). Three weeks ago I could not make six minutes without blacking out, and now I can make six minutes while I'm sick! That's a great confidence booster for a competition, when you can't be sure you're going to have your best day. Also, the routine is starting to become familiar and the static really starts at the 5'30" mark when it's time to figure out how much you have left in the tank. Another thing was that I could tell that I was too alkaline and was able to fine tune my breathe-up on the spot to compensate.

I wonder how being sick affects blood pH? Anyone? You would think you would get more acidic as the immune system devours oxygen to fight off the invaders. That's probably an oversimplification. It seemed so easy to over ventilate from breath to breath that by the end of the session I was taking two quick breaths (8-10 secs each) and then holding my breath for 30-40 seconds.

Pete
Vancouver, BC

 

[derelictp]

Congrats Laminar! Interesting.

Congrats Ivan: When you say 1min/2min breathup, is it the same as the intervall between breathholds or do you have more time inbetween?

Really impressive both.

 

[Bill]

Thanks for the report Pete. Hope you're feeling better.
Bill

 

[laminar]

..and beyond!

Went to the pool last night with Tyler and Eric. Still feeling a little under the weather.

Eric proposed that I try to do a short warm-up instead of going for max on the first attempt in order to try for a longer time on the second one, without getting depleted and having to recover for so long (if it is possible to fully recover).

Got in at around 8:30pm.

Breathe-up: none
1st static: 3'30", first contraction at 2'50" I was thinking at that point that it was going to be a bad day. My lungs didn't feel too good and it was disconcerting to get the contrations so early (relative to 1st statics with breathe-up).

Breathe-up: 2 minutes rest + 5 min of my usual pattern, but more like 2-3 breaths / 25-35 seconds hold per cycle
2nd static, max attempt: 6'49" (new pb!), first contraction at 3'55" for 2'54" of contractions (another pb)

What I wanted to try this time was being way more relaxed. Trying to use only my diaphragm to resist contractions and leaving the rest of my body out it. Usually I put my hands on the pool deck at around 5'30"--this time I didn't do that until just after 6'10" (I think).

I also packed to the max and it was almost painful to hold it in for the first four minutes. I let my cheeks bulge out with air until then.

I came up when (I think) I heard a change in my hearing. After every max static so far, my ears ring for about a minute afterwards. This time I'm pretty sure I became aware of the start of the ringing and that's when I came up. Because I remember clearly thinking at 6'45" when Eric gave the signal that I could make 7'00". But then the chimes started up and I wisely pulled up. If that's the case, it would make a great failsafe signal for competitions! Like an warning bell. And this time, my ears rang for less time than usual and not as strongly, meaning (I think) that I pulled up a little earlier than before.

Well, I am looking forward to Saturday...

Pete
Vancouver, BC

 

[derelictp]

Inspiring

Excellent Peter!!!!

I am inspired by your improvements....

 

[cebaztian]

I thought it impossible...

I find this thread intresting since I once thought I would never pass 6 miuntes in static. Since then I have done that a few times and I find it intresting to try to understand the difference between a 5.30 breathhold and a 6.30 breathhold. It seems to be such tiny details that makes the difference - for the reader of this post I offer my latest breathhold that was monitored by a scientist. Thanks to that I got a lot of data of which I only understand a third - some of you might be able to interpret and use this data.

http://www.fridykning.se/freediving/features/7min.html

Sebastian /Sweden

 

[derelictp]

Thanks!!

Very interesting test.

The first I see is that o2 goes down faster at approx the same time that contractions starts.... Do you know if the first contraction comes before or after the 2:nd breakpoint of the o2-curve??

I will look more at it!!

 

[fpernett]

Thanks for sharing your data, with us.
For the high pH, and low PCO2, I think you use somekind of hyperventilating technique, that, and the packing, can explain the slower descent of Sat O2. And the relatively slow rising of pressure can be due to high intrathoracic pressure after lung packing.
Did the Dr. Andersson measure your lactic acid at 1' or 5' after the static?.

 

[efattah]

Data I picked up:

- Definitely hyperventilation (CO2 < 2.9 @ start)
- Too little bohr effect near end (CO2 <= 6.03 @ end)
- Insufficient body buffers (shown by contraction @ 4'10 or so despite extremely low CO2)
- Good splenic contraction during the apnea (delta HB >= 1.0g/dl)
- Good hypoxia tolerance (SaO2 46% @ end, etO2 about 3%)

All things considered, astounding times (6'43" , 7'04") given the relatively small VC (<7L)...

I really like the warm up style, one big set, huge break, then gentle warm up, go. Exactly what Laminar and I have been thinking of trying!


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[thud]

SaO2%

How come the Oxygen Saturation chart says 29%, but the Just After column in the spreadsheet says O2 - 46.2? I see where the spreadsheet is the for 6:43 static. Did you really get down to 29% for the 7:04 static and remain conscious? If so that is incredible!
Drew

 

[derelictp]

Eric,

Maybe the contractions comes also from low pO2??

(..but Seb still has a saturation of approx 90% when the contractions starts so maybe not.)

...so you are probably right about the body buffers.

 

[efattah]

My guess was that the 29% was what the oximeter read, and I think it was a 1st generation oximeter. They are very inaccurate at low saturations. There's not much hope of staying conscious below SaO2 = 40%. On my ohmeda 3700 I once got to 11% without a samba, but on my next generation 3900P oximeter, 45% is almost always a samba.

It is true that low O2 causes contractions. This is related to your 'hypoxic ventilatory response.' In order to resist contractions until very late, you need:
- High CO2 tolerance
- Low hypoxic ventilatory response (HVR) (i.e. low O2 doesn't give you much urge to breathe)

IHT patterns are the best way to reduce your HVR.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada