Beyond 6:30 in static apnea

[Bill]

Sebastian
Thanks for sharing the info. Some of the comments are just as interesting. Unless there is a mistake in my calculations, six foot two and 154 pounds is slim by Hawaiin standards. Makes me wonder what the effect would be of dropping 15 kilos from my frame.
In case the observation (Vc<7) bothers you, think of my attempts using a Vc=5.3
Aloha
Bill

 

[cebaztian]

Clarifications

First of all - thanks for intresting comments it is educational.

BILL - Dont drop weight. I am a very slim guy but I am sure I could be better in static if I had 5 kilos extry with blood and muscles.

4.15 was the first significant contraction. VERY late for me. It was all in all an incredible day. My warm ups were the best ever. Usually get contractions after 1.30 in the first warm-up.

After 3 minutes pCO2 were 4.78
My VC was 6.3 during both apneas.

The oxygensaturation meter is NOT a cheap one - this scientist does publish in the best journals and must have accurate equipment. It was a slow steady drop without failure in reading down to 29% (Which occured 10 sec after breathing started - there is a delay).
And yes I was consious (well everything is relative). I opened my mouth and received a mouthpiece to blow in. But my first words afterwords where "there is LMC in my diaphragma" I felt it was "jumping". I have been consious down to 36 once or twice before (but with LMC).

FRANK: Lactic acid where measured RIGHT at termination of breathhold. 30 seconds later acid had risen to 1.1.

This was not a plan to rest for 2 hours between 6.43 and 7.04. They were drawing blood during 2 hours and then I wanted to do a breathhold with lots of hyperventilation. So I thought I did - but the CO2 were identical both max stats. I dont think the 7.04 was a better breathhold. I just pushed myself harder - taxing my body more.

I have a feeling my stamina doesnt allow more than one BIG apnea a day. Not even a big apnea the day after.

ERIC: What is the Bohr effect?

Sebastian /Sweden

 

[xsaul]

Hi guys,

Water Rat here. You guys crack me up!
I'm not really a world-class athlete, I don't have all that fancy equipment, I don't even understand all the above terminology.
My PB is still 6:40--after 27 years. Dunno if I'll ever repeat it--though I'd LOVE to BEAT it!!
Anyways--thanks for the tips--maybe someday I'll be hittin' the sevens.
Water Rat, who tries not to be TOO MUCH of a RAT.

 

[donmoore]

O2 still dropping after starting to breath

Sebastian,
Was the oximeter connected to the finger? If so you might find this interesting, I asked Kirk Krack about why my SaO2% was falling so much on my pulse/oximeter after I started breathing. He said, “Remember that blood flow is greatly increased to the brain as blood vessels are dilated, while the circulation to the finger is decreased (peripheral shunting).”

So to paraphrase, the brain in the presence of CO2 increases the blood flow to it, but restricts the flow to the fingers and other extremities. When we start breathing it will take longer for new O2 to reach the fingers than the brain due to continued vasoconstriction. Therefore the SaO2% reading drops further than it really is. Actually the SaO2% reading really is that low at the finger, but its higher in the brain. Kirk said that this is less of an issue when connecting to the ear lobe.
don

 

[thud]

6'40" 27 years ago?

Wasn’t the world record much less than 6’40” 27 years ago?
Drew

 

[derelictp]

Breakpoint in o2 curve vs first contraction

Seb

If I look at the diagram I belive that the first contraction comes earlier than the 2:nd breakpoint in the o2 curve???

Is it correct?

(by the 2:nd breakpoint I mean where the o2 begins to drop faster the 2:nd time)

 

[bobbybuttr]

Skeptical

The AIDA International web site only goes back 10 years to 1994. On 1/8/94, Andy Le Sausce set the world record with 6’48”. I remember Erik Y. posting that the record used to be only 5 something. If someone was doing 6:40 27 years ago, they were way beyond the best at that time.

A lot of times, this one included, I don’t believe what people say their times are. Someone who tells their struggle to improve over time is more believable. Even more believable is someone who entered a competition or at least did it in the presence of others.
Bobby

 

[xsaul]

Dear Thud,

6:29.8 on November 3, 1912--Paris, France. Georges Pouliquin.
13:42.5 on March 15, 1959--San Rafael, California. Robert L. Foster. (He hyperventilated for 30 minutes with oxygen first)
These guys were my heroes as a kid.
Is Foster still around??? Does anybody know?
Water Rat

 

[thud]

Bobby,
I confer.

Water Rat,
If I’m not mistaken those times come from an old Genius Book of World Records. Robert Frost’s record after breathing O2 for 30 minutes was just a freak show. Georges Pouliquinin’s record in France in 1912 would not have had anywhere near the controls modern freediving competitions do and was probably another freakshow.

27 years ago would place you in the same era of greats like Mayol and Enzo. For you to claim that you were doing times surpassing the greats of that time is a slam to all athletes of that area and this who train hard and honestly share their achievements. The new AIDA body for the U.S. is the United States Apnea Association. They plan on holding 3 competitions this year. If you can really do 6’40” lets see you enter a competition and do it! Otherwise, on this forum, trying speaking the truth.
Drew

 

[ivan]

Originally posted by thud
Bobby,

27 years ago would place you in the same era of greats like Mayol and Enzo. For you to claim that you were doing times surpassing the greats of that time is a slam to all athletes of that area and this who train hard and honestly share their achievements. The new AIDA body for the U.S. is the United States Apnea Association. They plan on holding 3 competitions this year. If you can really do 6’40” lets see you enter a competition and do it! Otherwise, on this forum, trying speaking the truth.
Drew

Why be so harsh to him, whenever someone says they did such and such time or depth on this forum I always believe them. I personally would feel very "low" about myself If I claimed to others that I can do such and such a time when deep down you know you havent done it :naughty

I wish xsaul all the best on beating his own 27 year best I believe ya



cheers

 

[xsaul]

Guys, guys,

First let me correct a few things--I AM A GIRL!!!
Furthermore, I thought I got my message out--when I joined Deeperblue, I DID say 6:40 is a time I did cheating--I breathed in a tiny bit near the end of the hold. It was NOT in competition, in fact, it was just me on a Sunday afternoon, playing around...I was just practicing...I was seventeen! Just a silly kid. Following a crazy dream of getting in the Guinness Book.
Furthermore--I wasn't EVEN watching the clock that closely--so the "6:40" is a guestimate...I looked at the clock right before I started, and right after I finished. So, I had just the minute hand to go by--it looked to be about 6 and 2/3 minutes.
Guys, I really am sorry I led you wrong...I will endeavor to tell more when I talk about my apnea--got on the site as novel research, initially--wanted to know how believable a 17-year-old girl doing a 6:40 would be. Apparently, it's a stretch. But I was thinking my character would live in California--and spend a lot of time in the ocean, freediving, and be better than ME--so SHE wouldn't have to CHEAT!
Water Rat, who, apparently HAS been a RAT
Robert L. Foster's best time, unoxygenated, according to the 1973 issue, (I think) is 5:40...and PLLLEEEAASSE, lighten up....He INSPIRED ME...I thought he was cool. And, ah--THANKS for the KICK in my complacency--I wanted to know what folks would think...opinions mixed, so far....BTW--my PB not cheating is 4:32...done March, 1992.

 

[thud]

Water Rat,
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry I reacted the way I did.
Drew
:waterwork

 

[xsaul]

Drew,

Don't worry about it--I pop off, too. You had a good reason, anyway--I didn't tell the whole story, I thought telling it several times before would be enough.
With so many wonderful holds on this site, I thought, well...I dunno what I was thinking. Anyway--I was thinking WRONG.
Besides, now that I'm going back to my fave sport--I'll be happy to learn the vernacular--and Yak about the EXPERIENCE OF IT. That's the GOOD part, anyhow.
Water Rat, who finds golf incredibly boring, skiing incredibly expensive, and doesn't own a BOAT. (and can't stand to kill anything--so never fishes)
What were the names of the GREATS, 27 years ago--the ones I supposedly surpassed the times of??? This stuff's FASCINATING.
I want their TIMES, too.

 

[cebaztian]

So... to get this back on track.

How to get beyond 6.30 in static.

Do you believe that its quite clear from the start who has talent/genetics/attitude that will make them good at static or is it a question of training.
Some people seem to reach 6-7 minutes just after 1-2 years training - others still fight at 5 even after years of training. I know two people who are good at static and they did 4+ on the first time they were shown the freediver way (tricks&tecniques) of breathholding.

Sebastian /Sweden

 

[xsaul]

HI guys,

I've heard it's partly talent and genetics, but MOSTLY training.
I suspect I'd TOTALLY SUCK at competition--informal competitions between hubby & me, in the swimming pool--when I was hittin' the 4+s easily BY MYSELF--outta water--NOT CHEATING....and I was watchin' the clock REAL CAREFULLY...well--hubby almost ALWAYS beat me--AND HE SMOKES!!!
I stayed under about 75 seconds--he stayed under, a few more seconds. Maybe 85 or 90. There was no preparation--hyperventilating--to be sure, I say that in MY defense--by MY defense sucks, neither of us "prepared." Hubby just had more--ah--WILLPOWER--he put it, "I'm willing to suffer more." I came up when I was hurting.
I DID hyperventilate for the 4's--actually, anything beyond the 2's. I DEFINITELY HYPERVENTILATED for the 6:40!!!!!!!!!
I've noticed something about COMPETING unnerves me...maybe I "know" I'm not that good, maybe I'm not comfy in the spotlight...Oh, Jeepers, I'm NOT!
So, I go off somewhere and hide--to do my real good holds, like I'm committing a CRIME or something!
I hyperventilate anywhere between 30 seconds and 3-4 minutes, depending on the ''experiment of the day." I get 2+--4+, depending on how well focused I am--how confident I feel, etc.
And should I want a SIX--I CHEAT-- !
OK--the 6:40 dropped in on me unexpectedly--I was totally relaxed, unworried--focused...but not going for any particular length--not even watching the clock carefully--just practicing, playing, having fun, killing time.... So, I didn't have a problem with breathing in just a tiny bit to lengthen it just a tiny bit--I was almost finished anyway....OH HOW I REGRETTED NOT DOING IT PROPERLY--MEANING OFFICIAL PROTOCOL. That would've been Guinness Book of World Records protocol--then. In 1976.
But, now--I gotta 'nother CHANCE--not to necessarily set a record or anything--my self-worth DOESN'T DEPEND ON IT. I got JESUS!
Still, I struggle with the performance trap, not as intensely--but I still do...Christians aren't made of stainless steel....
I WISH WE WERE sometimes!
I still dream of records--wish I had one--just know my life doesn't depend on it....
So, like the song says--''Girls Just Wanna Have Fun...."
LONG holds are FUN--but NOT the ONLY fun.
Water Rat--Still dreamin' (But couldn't set a world record if her life depended on it!!!) It's such a HEAD TRIP--LOL!
BUT--glad she's got other freedivers to TALK TO NOW...makes a lady feel less WEIRD!

 

[derelictp]

I think it depends most on talent and the persons psycholocical attitude.

I have met many examples that I think confirms this.

I belive one can train the ability much but for ex. I can never reach 8min. (And I will probably have huge problems to reach 7 even if I think it's possible)

BUT I HOPE THAT I AM WRONG!!!!!

 

[ivan]

hi

I don't think you should say I can never do 8mins cos I know you or anyone can. I take things step by step few years ago it was 5min and slowly over time I add 15sec here and there, I now know I can do 8mins one day it will just take some time and the right attitude

cheers

 

[cebaztian]

A lot of "jesus", a lot of "I have heard", some "I think I will" and "I hope". And of course X-saul with 6.40 (that actually could have been 5.40 - since you werent to sure about the position of the big hand in the clock) (personally I am not sure about anything when I finish a 6.40 breathhold (thats one of the effecst of hypoxemia).

Some of the best freedivers of the world read this forum. A lot of people who scientificly tested things. Guys who can hold their breath for 8 minutes. Lets hear it from them.
Can we who have touched 6.30 actually look forward to do 8 if we train with even more and with dedication?
Personally I think I will never again hold 7 minutes with this body and this lung volume. I have been quite fanaticly looking for the limit of my body for some time now.

Sebastian/ Sweden


PS. PETER Yes first the oxygen saturation left the 97% level and right before the second drop contractions started.

 

[pat fish]

very interesting data sebastian. thank you. i have read many threads about people with great ideas and explanations with a scientific approach. why not coordinating those good ideas and gather data from many freedivers through the contacts on this forum. one could name one responsible who gathers data by email and analyses and publishes it afterwards.

here an idea of a simple test:
--------------------------------------
every freediver doing 6'30''+ uses 1 safety person to readout a heartrate-monitor (and if available an oxygenmeter ) during a max static on a timeline protocol and 1 safety person to note the contractions on a timeline protocol.
Doing a set of for example 3 STANDARDIZED DIFFERENT breath-ups we would get a nice database.
Adding standard subject data - thats it. very easy done.
(of course one must first publish a guideline for the test to get the best similarity in testconditions.)

How many people do 6'30''+? how many of them would be available for such a test? probably 10 to 20.
How many people do 6'00''+ and are available? probably 20 to 50.

what do you think is the idea applicable? wouldn't it be a nice way of research in this deeperblue community in the sense of moving forward in static times?

yours pat

 

[tylerz]

Sebastian, hahah I know the feeling!

Well I can offer what data I have so far:

Before I heard about freediving, contractions, hyperventillation (2 years ago) I was holding my breath after a friend I was jogging with asked how long I could hold my breath for (I was already diving with no idea of what freediving was). First try was 2:12 or something. A couple months later I was between 4:30-5:00. A couple months later, my first session of freediving training I managed a dry 5:00. Half a year later I did over 8 minutes. This was without almost any training, except repetitive dry statics and exploration of very different techniques. Since then I regularly do 7+ and today have managed 7:55 with a nose-clip and another person timing me.

My girlfriend within a month of my teaching her static techniques, achieved 5:40.

A friend I quickly showed some technique to, achieved 4+ on his third try in one sitting.

None of us are training in any extreme or advanced way. I have a pretty good endurance level from when I was young. But am just beginning to do some actually body training again.

If I were to guess, I would say the biggest element, for us at least, is that we all pick what we eat rather consciously, enjoy outdoor activities, do yoga/stretching/meditation.

On top of that, I regularly do dry statics and am not scared of contractions. I have now done 4+ minutes of contractions multiple times (5-7). I persist to explore different breath-up techniques that break the norm. And I notice greatly how day to day stress/activity and food intake greatly affects my performance. I have had days recently where I samba at 6:00minutes dry.

The only other thing I can think of is that watching my heart-rate these days as I lie down just before the static, my best static times generally coincide with my heart-rate being at 39-46 bpm in the evening or early morning (when I do most my statics).

Mid-day and sitting, I think my heart-rate is more likely to be 50-56 bpm.

To conclude, I do not think I would recommend focus on training, if you are an above average fit person, to achieve the greatest improvements in statics if by training you mean physical exercise (cardio). I think more importantly is nutrition, relaxation, and repetitve dealing with low O2 and high CO2. That being said if your heart-rate and metabolism is high, then lowering those first alongside nutrition would be most important I would think. This could be done quickly, possibly through relaxation techniques and nutrition alone. Yet we are all different of course.

Cheers,

Tyler