Beyond 6:30 in static apnea

[jome]

As a third variable, I would suggest "tolerance to lower levels of oxygen". Ie you're not increasing stores or lowering consumption, you are simply able to stay concious at lower levels. This happens via increased blood circulation in the brain etc etc.

I would say that for a beginner, whose relaxation, posture etc is plain crap and he's barely able to sit still for 2 minutes without changing channels or something, the ability to minimize oxygen consumption is more important. Just training a few simple relaxation tricks will immediately yield results that seem like increbile leaps. Not unheard of that someone will double their static in a few weeks!

But for someone, who is experienced, knows their stuff and has very good relaxation etc, increasing oxygen stores is one obvious way to increase the time.

For someone very experienced and top level, fine tuning all three may yield 10-20 seconds here and there...

When someone makes a world record, busting all previous beliefs about the physiology of a breath hold using some weird mind trick, they've certainly got my interest! Untill then I'll stick with "what ever works, works"

Over simplified, a common beginner cycle seems to be something like:
3-4 -> relaxation, basic techniques - progress in leaps of tens of seconds, even over a minute at a time
5+ -> breathup, routines and preparation, lower oxygen tolerance - big leaps in pb (10-20 sec)
6+ -> the above + packing - after this most people will stop making progress in leaps and decide "static is not my thing" stop training regularily
~7 -> finetuning all, juggling variables + still more packing - progress second by second, sometimes even going backwards to redefine thinking and routines
8+ -> all of the above comined with excellent physical fitness, thick blood, good genes, obsessive training and mindset. Being strong in one area compensates for lack of another
9+ -> no compromises allowed, have to be top notch in every category
10+ ->Sheesh, who knows...I don't even want to think about it...

Anyway, I'm sure I'm just repeating stuff that has already been beat to death in the 100 replies to this topic

 

[pat fish]

A very old thread, one of the bests and still active :t

Today I consider hypercapnic tolerance in a broad sense (covering relaxation under hypercapnic conditions) as THE factor in the hole set. Why? Because by getting to a high level of hypercapnic tolerance you don't even have the benefits of slower metabolism during the performance but the hole program of phyisical impact (hypoxic training, changes in hematocrit, etc) and mental impact (high level of mental strength, relaxation) leading up to the performance.

Cheers
Pat

 

[Walrus]

I think we are forgetting the genetic factor in here. (Lung volume, blood volume, fat/skinny/muscle mass, metabolic rate, CO2 tolerance, brain function? etc. etc.) Instead of comparing everyone to the 6.30 mark, you should add a plus or minus of at least 1 minute. ie 2 people with exactly the same amount of training but different body types will have totally different statics. A friend I taught, complete beginner did a 6.30 static on his third ever try, no packing. In comparison someone else I taught had a pretty good blackout at only the 3.30 mark. So you could have 2 divers with the equally effective static routine, one would be at the 6 minute mark, one at 7. From Jome’s above example of times, rather then just match where you are in terms of time, work out where you are in terms of level of training, how advanced/effective your routine is. 1 person can have a crap routine and still be able to do 6 minute +, someone else a great routine and still be struggling at the 5.30 mark. I’ve seen this many times.


Also as far as adaptation is concerned, I think the most important part occurs at the brain level, not the body. The dive reflex/response is a lower level brain function, ie the brain stem (unconscious control of breathing, heart rate) and the cerebellum (unconscious - learnt motor skills). A lot of top level freedivers I know have totally normal red blood cell count. From what I hear Seb Murat changed his training approach so that his red blood cell count returned to normal levels yet his performance still increased, purely from training a very intense dive reflex/response.

Would be interesting to know what people like Tom, Martin, Natalia, Herbert, Peter P etc have in terms of red blood cell count, lung volume and other physical factors. At a guess the way Tom trains might be one of the few that gets any real physical adaptation as opposed to just training the dive reflex.


Cheers,
Wal

 

[efattah]

I disagree that metabolism cannot be altered dramatically. I don't believe that lung volume is that important in static anymore. In fact in 2006 if I can find some time to train I was planning on attempting a 7'00 to 7'30 FRC static on the bottom of the pool without a wetsuit. According to my calculations, the dramatically reduced lung volume during an FRC static would be almost entirely compensated for by the absence of packing induced tachycardia as well as the ability to block the contractions, which is only possible (yogi-style) with half full lungs. Further helping you out would be the shifted Hb-O2 dissociation curve. What I have found is that although FRC training does create a big increase in hemoglobin, the hemoglobin definitely behaves differently than hemoglobin obtained through inhale training, probably in terms of the Hb-O2 dissociation curve. For that reason I'm no longer certain that FRC training would improve inhale performance much unless the FRC phase were followed by a few weeks of inhale training.

Remember if you do yogi style contraction blocking the vagus nerve is stimulated without limit, only limited by the capacity of your nerves, which can be trained. At high levels of vagal stimulation the metabolism is decreased to a near standstill, allowing for a virtually limitless breath hold.

 

[jome]

Hmm, the FRC static on the bottom is an interesting idea! Let us know how it goes...

As for slowing your metabolism to standstill and limitless breath hold...Well, I have to be a cynic and say I'll believe it when I see it. I'm much too lazy to try to revolutionize statics my self. But I'll certainly try to steal a good technique when I see one! Right now the best I'm seeing is the traditional approach...I'm not saying the idea is totally impossible. There are lots of animals that do similar things and we're not that far apart genetically. But to do it totally "clean" (without substances) by just training your nervous system and mind? Well, when someone walks away from a competition with a 30min static and says that's what they did, I'll be listening.

Walrus, like I said, over simplified. But I dare say that there are not many over 8 minute guys who don't pack to over or close to 10 liters at the moment.

In fact, it would be very interesting to graph top breath holders pb's and packed lung volumes. I'm sure there would be deviation, but propably a very clear trend also...

As for people with 14 liter lungs not beating 7 minutes...Well, that's what I like to call the "gifted persons syndrome". Ie someone, who is gifted enough to do very good without any serious training, will have a hard time realizing their full potential, because, you know, they never need to. Applies to any area of life, just look around you

 

[efattah]

The two longest breath-holds I know of, with 'small' lung capacities:
1. Sam Still 9'55" (lungs about 8L with packing I think--this was after 10 days of fasting)
2. Tyler Zetterstrom 8'07" (lungs about 8L with packing)
3. Ryuzo Shinomiya 8'05" (lungs less than 8L w/packing)

 

[jome]

Well, next I'd like to correct the values with a coefficient that takes into account body weight and blood thickness...

I'm still fairly convinced there's no magic happening here and within a reasonable margin of error, all fall within the same "traditional" theory of breath holding.
Sam Still being the big question mark there. For his bodyweight, even 8 liters is very big, but not 10 minutes big...

To rephrase what I'm saying (starting to confuse my self):
-Take 10 top static guys in the world (that is to say people, who have perfected preparation routines, relaxation and trained enough to have found their physiological limit)
-Calculate total oxygen stores of each (lungvolume, blood) (this needs to be presice, not based on what someone may have written sometime in db or something)
-Correct oxygen stores to match their body mass (linear should be close enough)
-Divide corrected oxygen store with their pb.

It would be interesting to see, how much deviation there is in the results. Of course there will be some, but I bet statistically significant findings would be rare to non existent.

 

[efattah]

Well, according to research papers on Medline, metabolism drops by 12-13% after 7 days of fasting, and another 12-13% after another 7 days of fasting, reaching a limit of 25% below basal metabolism after 14 days, without any significant drop. A 25% gain in time on an 8-minute hold yields 10 minutes... all you need to do is minimize catabolism by minimizing physical activity during the fast, theoretically. When I tried a 6 day fast I was doing way too much physical activity. According to my O2/CO2 monitor, my metabolism had dropped by 10% or more, I simply couldn't hold my breath effectively due to excess uric acid build up. Sam Still, on the other hand, does almost no activity during his fasts.

Now, your metabolism also depends on your body temperature. In the absence of thermogenesis, metabolism drops dramatically with each degree celsius drop in body temperature. Cold training can lower your thermogenesis threshold by up to 1.5 degrees celsius. Further, heating a diet high in goitrogens and low in iodine can induce hypothyroidism, which further reduces your temperature set point. The combination of hypothyroidism and cold training could add another 20% to your apnea, on top of the 25% induced by fasting.

We know that Tom Sietas doesn't fast for more than a few hours, and he uses a wetsuit (implying that no cold tolerance training is at play). I don't know about hypothyroidism. But if you assume he isn't hypothyroid, then add 45% to his hold for fasting/hypothyroid/cold tolerance and you would get 14'40" as his max.

 

[jome]

Ok, now this thread is getting warm again...Thanks!

I've been meaning to do cold training for a long time, but keep putting it off...I simply hate cold. Would be interesting to see if it really makes a significant difference (which would not be hard to believe). I think I'll steer clear of the hypothyroidism...

 

[DeepThought]

What I have found is that although FRC training does create a big increase in hemoglobin, the hemoglobin definitely behaves differently than hemoglobin obtained through inhale training, probably in terms of the Hb-O2 dissociation curve.

Could you make that difference out of just storing a lot more CO2 in the blood while doing FRC (due to smaller air volume)?

And yes, VERY interesting thread!!

 

[perow1]

I find it strange to conclude a 15%drop in metabolism will add 25% to the static time. I can agree that a drop in metabolism is a major factor, but a simply additative effect seems strange.

 

[Oligo]

There is such a thing as a basal metabolic rate. This metabolism accounts for the energy expended by your cells for “housekeeping”, that is, maintaining the homeostasis of the system. This rate can only be lowered by reducing body temperature, a lot. Incidentally, it is very hard to survive a drastic drop in body temperature, since we are warm blooded animals and our bodies have adapted to a nice 37 degrees Celcius.

Then there is the issue of neural activity, which is of great interest to a static apneist. Comatose people are very good in static apnea, because there is no energy guzzling nerve activity in their nervous systems. Then again, comatose people cannot complete the surface protocol.

So whatever preparation you do for static, there is still the basal metabolic rate and the nerve activity in your brain, eating out that oxygen at a steady pace. There is no escape.

 

[SEDATE]

Oligo Comatose people ??/where they are living?/ i never heard it before!? /you mean escimo people???!! right?!

 

[Walrus]

The two longest breath-holds I know of, with 'small' lung capacities:
1. Sam Still 9'55" (lungs about 8L with packing I think--this was after 10 days of fasting)
2. Tyler Zetterstrom 8'07" (lungs about 8L with packing)
3. Ryuzo Shinomiya 8'05" (lungs less than 8L w/packing)

For the record I've spent quite a bit of time training with Ryuzo, and quite the oposite he has very high lung volume. He showed me his spiro graph from his medical for the cyprus comp we were in. I can't remember what it was exactly but his VC without packing was 7-8 litres ?!
I don't think he packs all that much for static, he barely breaths up at all and has absolutely stupid CO2 tolerance. On his final statics he doesn't start getting contractions until after 6min, and often only gets 6-8 contractions in total. :head
Yes well compared to me I used to do the contraction counting thing, and after hitting the 80+ mark I gave up interest and stopped doing that sort of thing... :t

Cheers,
Wal

 

[Bill]

I'm still having trouble with setting arbitrary limits on divers based on lung size. Since it might just sound like bragging, I didn't say much. Isn't it obvious that a small person with seven liter lungs may have an advantage over a large person with eight liters? Should we be telling new divers that they have no chance in competition?

Since my 'small' (5.3L Vc) lungs have enabled me to do sevens and when I was in top shape for three brief periods during the last two years I did back-to-back sevens two minutes apart without packing, I'm positive that there is something that we don't understand about static, yet.

My thinking now has to do with lung volume divided by skin and muscle mass, maybe even muscle type and personality type (can a type A individual ever really relax). Fat percentage doesn't seem to hurt. It may even help with CO2 storage, except as it pertains to aerobic condition, which is important.

Packing is a strange factor and very individual, I'm sure. I can pack over a liter but it takes 30 seconds, so when I start, I have 10% more O2 minus the consumption for 30 seconds. You also have to factor in some thing for extra effort to keep the air down. I only pack fully for 60 meter dives, about 1/3 for statics. It also seems to signal the heart to go to resting pulse rate.

What do you think?

Aloha
Bill

 

[efattah]

You only need to be able to respond to signals near the end of the static, and you only need to do the surface protocol at the end of the static.

This means your brain can be asleep during the main part of the static.

Therefore, it is conceivable that a person could put themselves in a 'cataleptic' state, (this has been documented), and then 'wake themselves up' near the end of the static.

In Monaco we were not required to give any signals, just finish the protocol at the end.

 

[tylerz]

I don't think he packs all that much for static, he barely breaths up at all and has absolutely stupid CO2 tolerance. On his final statics he doesn't start getting contractions until after 6min, and often only gets 6-8 contractions in total. :head
Yes well compared to me I used to do the contraction counting thing, and after hitting the 80+ mark I gave up interest and stopped doing that sort of thing... :t

Cheers,
Wal

How did you determine his CO2 tolerance is crazy? You may not have intended the meaning I gathered, but it looks like you are suggesting his late, and few contractions, to be a sign of high CO2 tolerance? Whereas measuring is the only way I suspect of determining a high CO2 tolerance (or measuring all other variables to determine it by implication). I get contractions very early, and was counting to 120-150 eventually (4min).

The fact that he gets contractions so late, suggests one of the following or a combination is likely:
- ventillating significantly
- ventillating efficiently (can occur with normal breathing)
- he is quite alkaline naturally or otherwise.
- his metabolism is low or becomes low.
- he took a hit of oxygen (just kidding)

All of these can assist in achieving the results and still have a person with an average freediver CO2 tolerance.

I would say a person who withstands contractions for a long period of time is a more likely candidate for having a high CO2 tolerance. Although the same person could hyperventillate more and get their contractions much later, but only withstand a small percentage of their normal amount.

Cheers,

Tyler

 

[Walrus]

Tyler,
some people get different meanings from the term Co2 tolerance. When I talk of CO2 tolerance, I mean your bodies response to high CO2, not how many contractions you can tolerate. I would call that 'contraction tolerance' perhaps, it's really just willpower.
Ryuzo does an extremely mild breathe up, in that he hardly purges at all, and gets very late urge to breathe and contractions. So how I understand the term he has very high natural CO2 tolerance. From what I've seen with people it's mostly a genetic thing, some people seem to be able to improve it most I know can't. For most people I know, myself included training CO2 tables only has a temporary effect that lasts a few weeks.

CO2 tolerance is really not that subtle that you have to measure it. Even if I hyperventilate to the absolute max I can only delay contractions to maybe 4.30 on a max and still get heaps, 50+. For other people they would get no contractions at all until they reach blackout level. Being quite alkaline naturally could be a big part of it.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[fpernett]

I have to agree with Walter, the CO2 tolerance is defined as a blunted ventilatory response to high levels of venous blood CO2, it's physiological. So a person with high CO2 tolerance doesn't have a strong ventilatory drive (contractions) to high CO2 levels. The contraction are not only due to high CO2, Low O2 levels or low pH can also induce the ventilatory drive, but it´s less frequent. The only way to measure CO2 tolerance with confidence is having the subject breathing a mix of gases with normal levels of O2 and increasing the level of CO2. The High tolerance subject don't increase ventilation as early neither as much as another subject with low CO2 tolerance.
But I don't think genetics are the only way. Breath-hold divers with regular training have higher CO2 tolerance that non freediving subjects. Genetics have their part, but training and willpower also have a big one

 

[DeepThought]

What other differences can we expect between high/low CO2 tolerance people on the same breathold?
How about vasoconstriction? pulse?
Contractions probably elevate cerebral BP and lower pulse... on the other hand they take some O2 probably...
Does having the worse physical CO2 tolerance yet the will power of a titan will produce the best results?