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Beyond -90 mts
- Thread starterfpernett
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
JimGlynn:
What is the meaning of RC? No packing?
I think Umberto or Pipin never pack. Is it true?
Thanks,
Bluehugh
What is the meaning of RC? No packing?
I think Umberto or Pipin never pack. Is it true?
Thanks,
Bluehugh
RC -> you mean FRC (functional residual capacity) = half lungs or partial exhale.
Honestly, Seb wouldn't tell me if his deepest CW dive was with packing, no packing, or FRC. It actually sounded like he had reached similar depths with each method.
Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
Honestly, Seb wouldn't tell me if his deepest CW dive was with packing, no packing, or FRC. It actually sounded like he had reached similar depths with each method.
Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
hi
Well in my opinion I don't like packing maybe I do only one antes de sumergirme -the first time I saw someone packing in a video it scared me-es como inflar un globo mas alla de su capacidad
Eric I forgot this- who was the one that introduced packing for freediving?
saludos
Daniel.
Well in my opinion I don't like packing maybe I do only one antes de sumergirme -the first time I saw someone packing in a video it scared me-es como inflar un globo mas alla de su capacidad
Eric I forgot this- who was the one that introduced packing for freediving?
saludos
Daniel.
I believe that statement is true. I know I read an interview where Pipin said he did not pack. Although they were the great divers of their time, look what has happened to the records since most divers started packing. Here is a link to site with some older records on it. http://www.geocities.com/~freediver/freedivingpage.htm
Jody
packing
many divers who dive deep while relying on packing and
have
not suffered this problem as of yet ,but
packing, seems to be a high-risk factor in my
in a
collapsed
thrachea or lungs
So basically, those who pack are at much greater risk to suffer this
than those who don't, and the more agressive the packing the worse
the
"hit"
could be.
many divers who dive deep while relying on packing and
have
not suffered this problem as of yet ,but
packing, seems to be a high-risk factor in my
in a
collapsed
thrachea or lungs
So basically, those who pack are at much greater risk to suffer this
than those who don't, and the more agressive the packing the worse
the
"hit"
could be.
Arms by sides
Eric, this is an interesting point, I have also noticed the same while looking at many divers. (Arms not straight)
Ex. M. Stepanek in Cyprus on his 93m dive with bifins, I think he would gain MUCH having arms by his sides considering the angle of the arms compared to the body-line)
I also use the tech (arms by my side) even though the Swedish finswimming coach advices me to have arms in front. I simply do better with this tech.
Her is a clip from a dynamic session:
http://www.nordicapnea.com/Dykdagbok/dagbok40222/dagbok40222.html
Eric, this is an interesting point, I have also noticed the same while looking at many divers. (Arms not straight)
Ex. M. Stepanek in Cyprus on his 93m dive with bifins, I think he would gain MUCH having arms by his sides considering the angle of the arms compared to the body-line)
I also use the tech (arms by my side) even though the Swedish finswimming coach advices me to have arms in front. I simply do better with this tech.
Her is a clip from a dynamic session:
http://www.nordicapnea.com/Dykdagbok/dagbok40222/dagbok40222.html
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i'm sure many divers don't realise the cost of having their arms extended in front. as a simple experiment, try doing a static with arms relaxed, then try doing a static with arms extended in front!...
i think having your arms in front can be useful in dynamic in some cases because:
- you don't have to equalise
- the most efficient speed seems to be fairly fast (e.g. PeterP)
- you don't wear a wetsuit
having your arms by your side in constant makes much more sense for the opposite reasons:
- you have to equalise. very few people can do BTV all the way to the target depth. you can't constantly change your arms position during the dive!
- you have the resistance of a wetsuit. thick wetsuit for us cold water divers! this makes extending your arms even more costly!
- the most efficient speed for depth is relatively slow - much slower that finswimming speeds, therefore hydrodyamic drag is not such an important factor.
- plus relaxation is so important when diving deep. it's hard to relax when you've got your arms hunched up around your head.
i think having your arms in front can be useful in dynamic in some cases because:
- you don't have to equalise
- the most efficient speed seems to be fairly fast (e.g. PeterP)
- you don't wear a wetsuit
having your arms by your side in constant makes much more sense for the opposite reasons:
- you have to equalise. very few people can do BTV all the way to the target depth. you can't constantly change your arms position during the dive!
- you have the resistance of a wetsuit. thick wetsuit for us cold water divers! this makes extending your arms even more costly!
- the most efficient speed for depth is relatively slow - much slower that finswimming speeds, therefore hydrodyamic drag is not such an important factor.
- plus relaxation is so important when diving deep. it's hard to relax when you've got your arms hunched up around your head.
If you have good form, whatever energy is spent keeping your arms out front is at least made up for by the decrease in drag. Specially true for the glide phase, the difference in speed is pretty great. I'm not talking just straight arms, but classic swimmers streamline, you need really flexible shoulders.
The biggest problem is trying to keep your arms straight for a whole dive because they get tired, like Martin (3-4 minutes !). Agree that once you can't keep them straight anymore then better off at the sides.
Doing no-fins, I changed my stroke so that instead of just putting arms out front during the kick, I go into a full swimmers streamline, arms tightly locked together. It made quite a difference to the glide, and now I get just as much glide from the kick as the arm pull. Yes it uses more energy, but the increased distance makes up for it + some extra.
I also learnt to use a monofin from finswimmers, so my style is much better with arms out front, feels more normal. For CB with a monofin my best dives were done with noseclip & pipe goggles, arms extended.
Cheers,
Wal
The biggest problem is trying to keep your arms straight for a whole dive because they get tired, like Martin (3-4 minutes !). Agree that once you can't keep them straight anymore then better off at the sides.
Doing no-fins, I changed my stroke so that instead of just putting arms out front during the kick, I go into a full swimmers streamline, arms tightly locked together. It made quite a difference to the glide, and now I get just as much glide from the kick as the arm pull. Yes it uses more energy, but the increased distance makes up for it + some extra.
I also learnt to use a monofin from finswimmers, so my style is much better with arms out front, feels more normal. For CB with a monofin my best dives were done with noseclip & pipe goggles, arms extended.
Cheers,
Wal
Well, if your velocity is zero, there is no drag, so putting your arms in front won't change the drag, but it will still increase your energy expenditure.
So, if you are doing a 100m constant weight dive in 1'30" (i.e. inhuman speed), then probably extending your arms will be beneficial.
If you do your 100m constant weight in 5'00", you will be travelling so slowly that there is no way that extending your arms can be beneficial.
So, it really depends on how fast you are going, and how thick your wetsuit is, and whether you need to pinch your nose to equalize, etc...
Sebastien Murat, after thousands of dynamic apnea swims, found that he could swim farther with his arms by his sides, even though he swims fast (circa 2'00" for 200m). He also found that he could swim faster (in a sprint) with his arms by his sides (circa 16 sec for 50m). So, perhaps with his style, arms by the sides is always the way to go.
The best dive I ever did, involved a sprint ascent with arms by my sides.
If you watch Mifsud do his 200m+ dynamics in 4'00"+, he keeps his arms by his sides; obviously. Try extending your arms for 4'00" travelling at a snail's pace and see if it helps.
Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
I separated my shoulder by trying to keep my arms above my head with the sides touching the head. Through trial an error, the doctor, and the physical therapist, I came up with this. It takes a lot less effort and is a much healthier position for the shoulders to face the hands toward each other interlocking the finger, than to do it the standard way of one hand over the other.
This method may not work too good for a mono fin if the diver is using the surface area of the hands to help in the movement, but for bi-fins I think it works good.
Also I think the water dynamics for the speeds we are going, inline with what Eric was saying, are not significantly different. The main benefit of bringing the hands above the head is the narrowing of the shoulders, our widest part, which means there is less water we have to displace when moving. The difference between a sharp point of the fingers verses a blunt point of a combine fist through interlocking fingers I believe is minor if it even exists. This can be seen by looking at the point of submarines and torpedoes, which do not have to have a sharp point to be effective.
don
This method may not work too good for a mono fin if the diver is using the surface area of the hands to help in the movement, but for bi-fins I think it works good.
Also I think the water dynamics for the speeds we are going, inline with what Eric was saying, are not significantly different. The main benefit of bringing the hands above the head is the narrowing of the shoulders, our widest part, which means there is less water we have to displace when moving. The difference between a sharp point of the fingers verses a blunt point of a combine fist through interlocking fingers I believe is minor if it even exists. This can be seen by looking at the point of submarines and torpedoes, which do not have to have a sharp point to be effective.
don
Well Mandy just smashed the women's CB record by 8m, she didn't have her arms by her side. Someone want to tell her she's doing it all wrong ?
I don't think it works for everyone, but those that have flexible shoulders and do it right I think it is a definite benefit. I can get probably 4m more from a push off in a pool with my arms exended streamlined vs arms by my side. When gliding in CB, I will start gliding earlier and terminal speed will be faster with my arms foward.
Wal
I don't think it works for everyone, but those that have flexible shoulders and do it right I think it is a definite benefit. I can get probably 4m more from a push off in a pool with my arms exended streamlined vs arms by my side. When gliding in CB, I will start gliding earlier and terminal speed will be faster with my arms foward.
Wal
Wal,
When I did my 82m record, I had my arms extended. I was doing it wrong. At least for the speed I was going.
The pool push off test just tells us that you are more hydrodynamic -- nobody doubts that. The question is, does the benefit at the SPEED you are going at, outweigh the energy it takes to do it? It depends on your speed.
Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
When I did my 82m record, I had my arms extended. I was doing it wrong. At least for the speed I was going.
The pool push off test just tells us that you are more hydrodynamic -- nobody doubts that. The question is, does the benefit at the SPEED you are going at, outweigh the energy it takes to do it? It depends on your speed.
Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
Wal,
Just so your clear, because I may have not made it clear, my method is with the hands above the head, just with them facing each other and interlocking the fingers. I can’t remember if you are a mono fin swimmer from our conversations, but just give it a quick try on land. If you’re like me the effort difference is very apparent.
don
Just so your clear, because I may have not made it clear, my method is with the hands above the head, just with them facing each other and interlocking the fingers. I can’t remember if you are a mono fin swimmer from our conversations, but just give it a quick try on land. If you’re like me the effort difference is very apparent.
don
Hands up vs hands down seems to be another of those things that is highly individual and diving type specific. Doesn't seem like anybodys opinion is valid for all.
For example, I'm diving around 30 m, clear hands free, don't use a wetsuit that restricts my shoulders, and am very flexible so a swimmers streamline is pretty easy. Hands up seems much more efficient for me, but I can easily see how it might not work for someone else or in a different situation.
Don, thanks for the tip on hand position . I tried it and the difference in cross section is negligable but it is easier, especially if maintained very long. I'll be using it soon.
Connor
For example, I'm diving around 30 m, clear hands free, don't use a wetsuit that restricts my shoulders, and am very flexible so a swimmers streamline is pretty easy. Hands up seems much more efficient for me, but I can easily see how it might not work for someone else or in a different situation.
Don, thanks for the tip on hand position . I tried it and the difference in cross section is negligable but it is easier, especially if maintained very long. I'll be using it soon.
Connor
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I got some negative Karma for posting the following
"Umberto doesn't pack as far as I'm aware and given that his prodigy, Davide Carrera definitely doesn't pack I'd be surprised if Umberto does."
Could someone tell me why this might upset someone as I'm at a loss to understand it....maybe the person that gave the negative karmait could send me a PM and explain as there wasn't any message attached?
"Umberto doesn't pack as far as I'm aware and given that his prodigy, Davide Carrera definitely doesn't pack I'd be surprised if Umberto does."
Could someone tell me why this might upset someone as I'm at a loss to understand it....maybe the person that gave the negative karmait could send me a PM and explain as there wasn't any message attached?