Breathholding and breathing problems

[Valentin]

Hi there!

I have a qustion for all of You, maybe You can help me to work this problem out.
I am a healthy, 30Yo male. I allways enjoyed freediving, but mostly in summer months.

3 months ago I joined an Apnea - club and started training 3x per week in swimmingpool (25m, 50m), basic traing.
I also do the Co2 tables.

I noticed something. When I hold my air "too long" I feel some difference in breathing mostly 1 or 2 hours after doing the exercise. Once, I was doing dry max statics and after the 6th hold it appeared. It felt like slightly
"heavy breathing", a bit like a small ball in my throat. It was gone after 20min.

The Asthma and OCD tests are negative. I have a pollen allergy in a short period in the Year, but taking my medicaments, I am just fine.

When my Co2/O2 holds arent too diffucult and stressful and I dont push them too hard, everything is fine.
(At the very beginning I was so excited about all the new things and trainning methods, I was holding my breath every day, walking on the street, stairs, doing co2/2/o2 tables almost every day and maybe overstrain the body and the lungs?)

Am I maybe pushing too hard for a beginner, or should I be concerned?

Every information has a great value for me, thank You!!

Valentin

 

[John B Griffith Jr]

Valentin, more experienced and knowledgeable people will be responding soon...but I experience(d) the same sensation...a tightness, almost syrupy feeling on occasion...and I found that for me, that I had strained my throat muscles and was clenching a lot more tightly than I thought I was...you write ""heavy breathing", a bit like a small ball in my throat. It was gone after 20 min."...and I think that maybe you have someone film you when you are doing those drills/exercises that cause this sensation. Watch it afterwards and pay attention to how strained you appear...note your tenseness when doing the breathe hold. We use a lot of muscles to take breathes that are larger than our normal respiratory volume...and we hold that air in, fighting the natural urge to breathe. I could be off-base here...and like I said, some really smart and knowledgeable people will surely post responses...but that was what I found for me.

After I saw myself, I started working diligently at stretching, relaxation and yoga...and being mindful of mentally releasing tension iun my throat and chest...I know, it sounds so "mumbo jumbo", but after getting into yoga...it clicked for me. Regardless, good luck and look forward to reading the rest of the responses!

 

[Valentin]

Hi John, thank You for the reply. No, it doesnt sound like "mumbo jumbo" at all.

I will pay attention to my my throat muscles during the hold. I have to admit, when the contractions gets stronger, it feels stressful and very uncomfortable to me. I dont know, how other perceive that sensation? When You are trying to get better results and are pushing it a little, does it come naturally to You, or You sometimes have warm feet and sweaty hands?

The sensation for me is, getting a "heavy breathing" feeling 1h or 2h after the holds. For example, if I do the Co2 tables before going to sleep, I feel sometimes a sensation as not being able to take the full inhale in lying position. If I sit on bed the feeling is gone.
If I continue lying on bed, relaxe, do longer exhales and ignore it, it goes also away somehow.

 

[John B Griffith Jr]

Most Apnea divers I know tell me that they get really warm after doing static, or during a long hold...I know I do when doing dry static. I think everyone's physiological responses are unique, and while I don't have a "heavy" feeling 1-2 hours after doing static holds, I would bet that there is a physiological response to increased CO2, diminished O2, maybe your position when doing them...I'll see what I can find in the literature...https://forums.deeperblue.com/forums/freediving-science.149/, maybe post to this thread and see what the responses are.

It never comes "natural" for me after 5 minutes...up to that point, pretty relaxed...I have to spend some time meditating, doing good breath-ups and be in the zone when I push for really long times. Keep notes as you progress, write down what happens at what times, maybe what you ate, how much sleep, etc. All these things will give you a template over time that will let you find your "sweet spot" for really long holds. Best wishes and safe diving!

 

[Valentin]

John, thank You I will post this thread again, maybe there will be some more feedback!

Regards, Valentin

 

[Valentin]

Dear forum members!

I have posted this question allready here (https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/breathholding-and-breathing-problems.103202/) but I do it again here, maybe I will get some more feedback.


I am a healthy, 30Yo male. I have allways enjoyed freediving, t mostly in the summer months.

3 months ago I joined an Apnea - club and started training 3x per week in swimming pool (25m, 50m), basic traing. I also do the Co2 tables.

I noticed something. When I hold my breath "too long" I feel some difference in breathing mostly 1 or 2 hours after doing the exercise. Once, I was doing dry max statics and after the 6th hold it appeared. It felt like slightly "heavy breathing", a bit like a small ball in my throat. It was gone after 20min.

The sensation for me is, getting a "heavy breathing" feeling 1h or 2h after the holds. For example, if I do the Co2 tables before going to sleep, I feel sometimes a sensation as not being able to take the full inhale in lying position. If I sit on bed the feeling is gone. If I just continue lying on bed, relaxe, breathe slowly and ignore it, it goes away somehow and i fall asleep.

The Asthma and OCD tests are negative. I have a pollen allergy only a short period in the Year, but taking my medicaments, I am just fine.

When my Co2/O2 holds arent too diffucult and stressful and I dont push them too hard, everything is fine.
(At the very beginning I was so excited about all the new things and trainning methods, I was holding my breath every day, walking on the street, stairs, doing co2/2/o2 tables almost every day and maybe overstrain the body and the lungs?)

Am I maybe pushing too hard for a beginner, or should I be concerned?

Every information has a great value for me, thank You!!

Valentin

 

[MarcinB]

I think it may be related to irritation of the mucosa of the throat/trachea caused by intense contractions and too much tension. I sometimes have similar symptoms when I push too hard with reverse packing or empty lung stretching. Since you are allergic your mucosa may be more sensitive. Did you notice increased mucus secretion in the throat?

 

[Valentin]

I think it may be related to irritation of the mucosa of the throat/trachea caused by intense contractions and too much tension. I sometimes have similar symptoms when I push too hard with reverse packing or empty lung stretching. Since you are allergic your mucosa may be more sensitive. Did you notice increased mucus secretion in the throat?

Hi there, that sounds interesting!

Yes, I have almost allways, when holding breath for extended time mucus secretion in the throat! When swimming 25m or 50m distances, the last repeats are allways hard and there I have my throat full. It nerves, because I cant do the breathing up properly, because I have sometimes to cough and try to get the secretion out of the throat.

How do You deal with that? Have You noticed any other sensations than the mucus secretion in the throat? I mean, it doesnt bother me too much and I could get used to it, but I am worried it could get suddendly worse and I could get an attack and run out of air somehow...

At the beginning, I was shure, I have Exercise-Induced Asthma, but the test were all negative

 

[MarcinB]

Sometimes there is also some hoarseness. But it's mostly mucus and the felling of full throat. In my case the only solution is to take it easy and don't push myself too hard. Fortunately, it never happens during breath hold.

 

[whaleshark]

for me , every time after i do the co2 table, my stomach is full of gas until the next day....

 

[Valentin]

for me , every time after i do the co2 table, my stomach is full of gas until the next day....

Why do you have gas in you stomach?


I was observing myself in the last few days during breatholding and underwater swimming.
My throat was a bit tensed, so I will work on that in the upcomming future.

Still, there is some sensation happening with my breathing and lungs after breathholding.
Pushing too hard over the strong contractions resolves in unpleasant discomfort by breathing afterwards breatholding exercieses.

I will take it slow and try not to push too hard.
I do spearfish, so I plan to stick to shallow water, take longer rests between the dives and I will see what happens.

And maybe is out there somebody, who experienced the same sensations and will have something to say me about this issue I have

 

[whaleshark]

I have lot of gas in my stomach after breath hold. I guess it is because I swallow a lot of air in my mouth when I'm holding my breath. Does anyone have this experience? When the urge of breathing comes, the first thing is to swallow the air in the mouth which seemingly prolong the breath hold a little bit longer....

 

[Kars]

I have lot of gas in my stomach after breath hold. I guess it is because I swallow a lot of air in my mouth when I'm holding my breath. Does anyone have this experience? When the urge of breathing comes, the first thing is to swallow the air in the mouth which seemingly prolong the breath hold a little bit longer....

I think you are correct. perhaps you can lift the chest a bit and have contraction movement relayed to the diaphragm instead of the throad?

 

[Kars]

Why do you have gas in you stomach?


I was observing myself in the last few days during breatholding and underwater swimming.
My throat was a bit tensed, so I will work on that in the upcomming future.

Still, there is some sensation happening with my breathing and lungs after breathholding.
Pushing too hard over the strong contractions resolves in unpleasant discomfort by breathing afterwards breatholding exercieses.

I will take it slow and try not to push too hard.
I do spearfish, so I plan to stick to shallow water, take longer rests between the dives and I will see what happens.

And maybe is out there somebody, who experienced the same sensations and will have something to say me about this issue I have

I suggest checking your diet. There are a lot of foods that have our bodies create excessive mucus and seliva. stuff like sugar, milk products etc. Also drink more water so your sluids become thinner an drain better.
Overtraining is very easy in water, and even moreso with apnea. Try 2 weeks without max holds and only easy dives. Practice technique, fysical and mental relaxation. Instead of 'breath up' try taking a few easy slow breaths whereby you slow down your heart,mind and metabolism. when you start your dive do so slowly with the objective to retain that low metabolism. As you swim you only think about rhytm and feeling that water flow over your skin. If you do it right the end of the lane should surprise you, because your mind is only in the now.
I used to train according to effort levels, not to times or distances. This prevents me from training too hard. I would safe the 95% dives for competitions.
I hope this is helpfull in your situation.

 

[Valentin]

I suggest checking your diet. There are a lot of foods that have our bodies create excessive mucus and seliva. stuff like sugar, milk products etc. Also drink more water so your sluids become thinner an drain better.
Overtraining is very easy in water, and even moreso with apnea. Try 2 weeks without max holds and only easy dives. Practice technique, fysical and mental relaxation. Instead of 'breath up' try taking a few easy slow breaths whereby you slow down your heart,mind and metabolism. when you start your dive do so slowly with the objective to retain that low metabolism. As you swim you only think about rhytm and feeling that water flow over your skin. If you do it right the end of the lane should surprise you, because your mind is only in the now.
I used to train according to effort levels, not to times or distances. This prevents me from training too hard. I would safe the 95% dives for competitions.
I hope this is helpfull in your situation.

Hi Kars, thank You for your advices. Before training apnea, I was pretty active in the gym. The muscles are gone now, only what is left is the diet. I still try to eat as clean and lean as possible, so I will definitly check my diet about any foods, that can create excessive mucus and seliva.

There is a cool guy on Youtube, showing a "frog flow" in pool apnea diving, is that maybe You? He also speaks a lot about the feeling of the water flow on the skin.

Now, after your comment on Whalesharks post, I understand, what he meant.
You Wrote:

perhaps you can lift the chest a bit and have contraction movement relayed to the diaphragm instead of the throad?

I feel stronger contractions in my throath instead in the diaphrahm area. What did You mean exactly with "lift the chest a bit and have contraction movement relayed to the diaphragm instead of the throat"?

 

[Kars]

Hi Kars, thank You for your advices. Before training apnea, I was pretty active in the gym. The muscles are gone now, only what is left is the diet. I still try to eat as clean and lean as possible, so I will definitly check my diet about any foods, that can create excessive mucus and seliva.

There is a cool guy on Youtube, showing a "frog flow" in pool apnea diving, is that maybe You? He also speaks a lot about the feeling of the water flow on the skin.

Now, after your comment on Whalesharks post, I understand, what he meant.
You Wrote:

I feel stronger contractions in my throath instead in the diaphrahm area. What did You mean exactly with "lift the chest a bit and have contraction movement relayed to the diaphragm instead of the throat"?

Yes its me in the frog flow video, im still amazed by its reception by the viewers.

Relaying swallow movements:
People usually fist get swallowmovements, usually quick followed by the first diaphragm contractions. Beginners usually try to postpone both by blocking/tensooning the associated muscle groups.... burning extra O2
What I do is just accept, even welcome these rections by helping them with a slight muscular movement, nudge if you will. Going with the flow instead of fighting. For my diaphragm it means that i expand my lower ribcage just a bit so my diaphragm can move freely under it. If i do not the lower ribs block the soft early contractions creating unwanted tension.
by allowing my diaphragm easy contractions my swallowmovement become much less intence .
The other way around works too, as ive experienced in mymost special static. during a competition in Belgium. You see I had a terrible itch in my troat. So bad it induced incoluntairy swallowing reflex. After trying to fix it I gave up and decided just to let it be and drop my expectations of having any good time. The swallowing started at the start and lasted until igot up at 6:50, a personal best. Seeing the video amazed me, because it condirmed my internal observation that this dive was without contractions! Normally the start around 2:30 for me.
Since this dive I've never had a similar dive with the continuos swallowing.
so swallowing is normal and can even be beneficial, though swallowing ones own air is not ideal.
I hope this clarifies the relation swallowing and cotractions have and how a little room and encouragement can shift the movements around.

 

[Valentin]

Kars, thank You for your time and explanation.
I will work on these things and writte about it later, after the progress!

Valentin

 

[Kars]

Thanks for the reply, I'm looking forward to reading your experiences. Have fun exploring. kars

 

[John B Griffith Jr]

 

[John B Griffith Jr]

After re-visiting your original post, I would also suggest you take down some notes...what time of day you practice and how you feel afterwards...post or pre-meal time, amount of sleep, etc. My best static time 7 min+ was in the morning, no breakfast, 6-7 hours of sleep, 30 minute breathe-up, 80 degree pool, etc. My worst is usually within a couple of hours of a meal or in the afternoon. I also don't practice the day before I intend to do a deep or long series of holds...seems the body needs a little "rest" from all that breathing . Good luck and safe diving!