O
-
Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:
- Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
- Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
- Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
- Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
- All this and much more...
You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!
broken eardrums during records
- Thread starterHerbert
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
People don't realize that a very large volume mask already acts like an extra mouth; it is even worse, because it takes air FROM THE SURFACE, whereas the EQEX is empty at the surface.
You could easily use a full face snorkelling mask, then at 15m, allow it to gradually fill with water while you inhale the fresh air from the mask. You finish the dive with a flooded mask. In this way you could take up to 3/4 litres of extra air from the surface by using the mask.
You could easily use a full face snorkelling mask, then at 15m, allow it to gradually fill with water while you inhale the fresh air from the mask. You finish the dive with a flooded mask. In this way you could take up to 3/4 litres of extra air from the surface by using the mask.
If I understand some of you correctly, you are suggesting that a ruptured ear drum would disqualify an athlete.
How do you police that?
Also what about getting DCS, should that result in a DQ?
My point is that if there is a medical problem we should do everything to encourage an athlete to seek treatment rather than discourage them by DQing them.
Finally, as some one with crap ears I am incredibly jealous of those fortunate souls that can read their ear drums to the point of perforation. Those of us that struggle to equalise never can tell if it's just a little sticky today or something more serious. We are all different so please don't make assumptions, based on personal circumstances, when you might not actually appreciate the difficulties that others suffer.
How do you police that?
Also what about getting DCS, should that result in a DQ?
My point is that if there is a medical problem we should do everything to encourage an athlete to seek treatment rather than discourage them by DQing them.
Finally, as some one with crap ears I am incredibly jealous of those fortunate souls that can read their ear drums to the point of perforation. Those of us that struggle to equalise never can tell if it's just a little sticky today or something more serious. We are all different so please don't make assumptions, based on personal circumstances, when you might not actually appreciate the difficulties that others suffer.
Matt,
My ears are among the worst in the freediving world. Valsalva has no effect for me, and BTV is also impossible. Yet, I still think that with good technique one can always equalize efficiently and rapidly.
When you say that we should encourage people to seek treatment rather than discouraging them by DQing them, are you saying that blackouts should be allowed, and we should encourage the athlete to seek neurological treatment for the brain damage, rather than discouraging them by DQing them?
My ears are among the worst in the freediving world. Valsalva has no effect for me, and BTV is also impossible. Yet, I still think that with good technique one can always equalize efficiently and rapidly.
When you say that we should encourage people to seek treatment rather than discouraging them by DQing them, are you saying that blackouts should be allowed, and we should encourage the athlete to seek neurological treatment for the brain damage, rather than discouraging them by DQing them?
that's more or less the idea. a doctor can either see a peforation or he can't. it's all fairly black and white. if the diver refuses treatment for suspected DCS then he's disqualified anyway... so it couldn't be sidestepped in that way.
it's not a question of how well you equalise. it's about realising and accepting that you can't equalise during a dive and turning around to minimize risk to yourself.
some people may be very susceptible to perforations due to various medical conditions. but perhaps in those cases they should seriously consider whether they are medically fit to dive.
it's not a question of how well you equalise. it's about realising and accepting that you can't equalise during a dive and turning around to minimize risk to yourself.
some people may be very susceptible to perforations due to various medical conditions. but perhaps in those cases they should seriously consider whether they are medically fit to dive.
I have a silly question, if Herberts baloon filling is legal in no limits, will it be legal for other events ?
My guess is the justification is that starting with an empty baloon mean you don't start with any extra air on the surface. Imagine static, use a bigger baloon, full packing, start your static and exhale into the baloon. You then get quicker dive reflex due to earlier hypoxia, then take little sips of air from the baloon. I'm sure that could add a couple of minutes extra to your static if you practised how to do it.
As for dq because of burst eardrums I think it's a little extreme. Sure you could turn around as soon as you can't equalise but their are times you can still go a few extra m, then turn and still be ok. Could be you just have things go wrong in your competition dive and you mess up your equalising. I think in a lot of cases people have pushed it and hoped they won't burst an eardrum but not meant to do so on purpose. Sometimes it worked sometimes not. The fact that Herbert only got one burst eardrum means he eqaulised the other one ok.
Cheers,
Wal
My guess is the justification is that starting with an empty baloon mean you don't start with any extra air on the surface. Imagine static, use a bigger baloon, full packing, start your static and exhale into the baloon. You then get quicker dive reflex due to earlier hypoxia, then take little sips of air from the baloon. I'm sure that could add a couple of minutes extra to your static if you practised how to do it.
As for dq because of burst eardrums I think it's a little extreme. Sure you could turn around as soon as you can't equalise but their are times you can still go a few extra m, then turn and still be ok. Could be you just have things go wrong in your competition dive and you mess up your equalising. I think in a lot of cases people have pushed it and hoped they won't burst an eardrum but not meant to do so on purpose. Sometimes it worked sometimes not. The fact that Herbert only got one burst eardrum means he eqaulised the other one ok.
Cheers,
Wal
Comments on Wal's ideas:
- Static by exhaling the air first, then slowly re-inhaling it, adds about 1 minute to my static time
- I also agree that one broken eardrum may be a sign of bad luck, but BOTH eardrums broken means you could have gone way past your limit
- Static by exhaling the air first, then slowly re-inhaling it, adds about 1 minute to my static time
- I also agree that one broken eardrum may be a sign of bad luck, but BOTH eardrums broken means you could have gone way past your limit
Great points Wal. I was wondering about the static thing as I've tried a similar approach and it adds almost 25% to my humble times given my relatively slow dive response on inhale with packing. For someone doing 8mins(not me) that would equate to being able to do 10mins with the balloon.
I'll admit to the sarcasm to a point, but I still think that if one argues for eardrum disqualification based on the seriousness of the incident, then what about alvioli rupture? Is that not more serious? Lots of divers spit blood after deep dives...should we make them spit in a cup and monitor the quality of their attempt to spit? "Did he really 'pull one up' out of his lungs, or was he faking?" :duh
It's not practical to measure some of this stuff and just adds to the subjectivity of the present DQ's, in my opinion.
And Sam's point is valid, that our physiologies are different. I know people that cannot even scubadive because they get nosebleeds and barotrauma on plane flights, for example
Peace amigos,
Erik Y.
It's not practical to measure some of this stuff and just adds to the subjectivity of the present DQ's, in my opinion.
And Sam's point is valid, that our physiologies are different. I know people that cannot even scubadive because they get nosebleeds and barotrauma on plane flights, for example
Peace amigos,
Erik Y.
Alun...
Last year, at the Swedish championship, I broke my left eardrum on my way up, 10m after the turn.... I guess they call it reverse block.
Should I be DQ after that dive, because of that?
/B
Last year, at the Swedish championship, I broke my left eardrum on my way up, 10m after the turn.... I guess they call it reverse block.
Should I be DQ after that dive, because of that?
/B
I think breaking an eardrum from reverse block should also be a DQ.
Reverse block can be avoided by:
- keeping the sinuses clean (requires staying healthy, which requires boosting your immune system with known methods)
- avoiding diving if the ears are sticky or the sinuses aren't clear
- doing BTV on the ascent if necessary, or, in a severe case, a reverse valsalva
Just my opinion. I still hope that one day divers will have several attempts over a few days, to make the dive. That way, they can stay out of the water on the days when their sinuses don't cooperate. One of the big problems these days is the 'one-shot' approach, where you have one year to train for one dive, and if you body isn't cooperating, most people will go for it anyway. But, if they could 'pass' on the 1st attempt and try the next day or two days later, maybe they would be less willing to have problems.
The problem is especially bad in the team championships, where sponsors are involved; the athlete has trained for the whole year, the sponsors are counting on him, his country expects a great performance, and whether or not he makes it to the bottom can have a huge impact on the development of the sport in his country.
In that situation many divers will break their eardrums to get the tag, since they only have once chance to get it. If you gave them two or three tries, they would have much more reason to turn early.
I remember in Nice 2000 (team championship), they even had a special area on the shore to treat all the people with broken eardrums. It looked like a hospital, with people lined up on the ground laying side-by-side.
Reverse block can be avoided by:
- keeping the sinuses clean (requires staying healthy, which requires boosting your immune system with known methods)
- avoiding diving if the ears are sticky or the sinuses aren't clear
- doing BTV on the ascent if necessary, or, in a severe case, a reverse valsalva
Just my opinion. I still hope that one day divers will have several attempts over a few days, to make the dive. That way, they can stay out of the water on the days when their sinuses don't cooperate. One of the big problems these days is the 'one-shot' approach, where you have one year to train for one dive, and if you body isn't cooperating, most people will go for it anyway. But, if they could 'pass' on the 1st attempt and try the next day or two days later, maybe they would be less willing to have problems.
The problem is especially bad in the team championships, where sponsors are involved; the athlete has trained for the whole year, the sponsors are counting on him, his country expects a great performance, and whether or not he makes it to the bottom can have a huge impact on the development of the sport in his country.
In that situation many divers will break their eardrums to get the tag, since they only have once chance to get it. If you gave them two or three tries, they would have much more reason to turn early.
I remember in Nice 2000 (team championship), they even had a special area on the shore to treat all the people with broken eardrums. It looked like a hospital, with people lined up on the ground laying side-by-side.
Eric,
Maybe they should add this "several attempts over a few days" in other sports as well, like athletic... marathon.
...last man standing (or coming up) is the winner.
:mute
Maybe they should add this "several attempts over a few days" in other sports as well, like athletic... marathon.
...last man standing (or coming up) is the winner.
:mute
I think AIDA rules should be updated as soon as possible to take into account an EQEX kind of device.
For which diciplines it is allowed, what is the max volume etc.
Personally I think for depth diciplines, why not...
For static, it would like an extra lung: you could pack way over your comfort limit and just exhale into the thing. I don't like the idea, but at least it should be specified in the rules...
Anyway, cool little invention that should be a great help for recreational FRC divers!
For which diciplines it is allowed, what is the max volume etc.
Personally I think for depth diciplines, why not...
For static, it would like an extra lung: you could pack way over your comfort limit and just exhale into the thing. I don't like the idea, but at least it should be specified in the rules...
Anyway, cool little invention that should be a great help for recreational FRC divers!
I'm not into the EQEX but maybe that should be another thread....
first Alun accuses me of being in denial and then implied I am not fit to dive .... nice..... I must be one of the most medically investigated divers around and my dive doc regularly calls me to find out how the freediving is going and has never had a problem signing my form (except for a couple of months ban after DCS!) I have had every hearing test known to man and despite their very interesting scarring pattern my eardrums still work perfectly....
and yes, drums don't necessarily go on the way down. I had a big rupture out in Nice a couple of years ago and it went about 10m below the surface on the way up.... the other worst one went at about 5m in the SETT tank when I was trying to dive on exhale..... neither time did it hurt (until afterwards)
if something has not happened to you, think yourself lucky but do not judge on something you have not experienced and clearly know little about
maybe we should also have a colour chart to hold up against a freedivers face to see if he is suffering too much pallour?
or hey - how about another judgement at competitions - well your obsession with freediving has clearly seriously damaged your social life which is after all, not healthy..... you are disqualified!!
(the lack of sleep and stress from spending so much of my life trying to sort out freedive politics and work at the moment is doing me a lot more damage than an eardrum hole!.........)
first Alun accuses me of being in denial and then implied I am not fit to dive .... nice..... I must be one of the most medically investigated divers around and my dive doc regularly calls me to find out how the freediving is going and has never had a problem signing my form (except for a couple of months ban after DCS!) I have had every hearing test known to man and despite their very interesting scarring pattern my eardrums still work perfectly....
and yes, drums don't necessarily go on the way down. I had a big rupture out in Nice a couple of years ago and it went about 10m below the surface on the way up.... the other worst one went at about 5m in the SETT tank when I was trying to dive on exhale..... neither time did it hurt (until afterwards)
if something has not happened to you, think yourself lucky but do not judge on something you have not experienced and clearly know little about
maybe we should also have a colour chart to hold up against a freedivers face to see if he is suffering too much pallour?
or hey - how about another judgement at competitions - well your obsession with freediving has clearly seriously damaged your social life which is after all, not healthy..... you are disqualified!!
(the lack of sleep and stress from spending so much of my life trying to sort out freedive politics and work at the moment is doing me a lot more damage than an eardrum hole!.........)
oh yes - and of course - we do all have medicals to see if we are fit to freedive (well those of us who compete or teach anyway - and if the eardrum damage really starts to be a problem, the doctor will not sign the form - so we don't need judges to look into this - our annual medical would disqualify us anyway if the damage was a problem.
The difference, in my mind, is that for depth you can pack as much as you can fit anyway, since the increasing water pressure will push your lungs back to normal in a matter of seconds.
But for static, try to pack absolutely full, to the painful treshold, and hold it in for 8 minutes...Not pleasant.
Where as pack absolutely full, exhale some, and after a few minutes inhale it again...That's a totally different story.
So in depth diciplines, the EQEX just gives you a bigger mouthfill and a faster dive reflex.
In static, it would actually allow you to take more air than you would without it...
So if it is to be allowed, it should be obvious that it's allowed only for depth diciplines..
While we're at it, let's ban masks for static
In general I'd like to think that the more extra equipment needed, the less "free" the diving is. But then again, who cares. In the case of no-limits, you already have more equipment then your hard core tech diver, what's a little empty balloon more...
But for static, try to pack absolutely full, to the painful treshold, and hold it in for 8 minutes...Not pleasant.
Where as pack absolutely full, exhale some, and after a few minutes inhale it again...That's a totally different story.
So in depth diciplines, the EQEX just gives you a bigger mouthfill and a faster dive reflex.
In static, it would actually allow you to take more air than you would without it...
So if it is to be allowed, it should be obvious that it's allowed only for depth diciplines..
While we're at it, let's ban masks for static
In general I'd like to think that the more extra equipment needed, the less "free" the diving is. But then again, who cares. In the case of no-limits, you already have more equipment then your hard core tech diver, what's a little empty balloon more...
Last edited:
Alun
I have perforated my eardrum quite easily without warning. I had no problem equalising, but the rate of my descent and a sudden hood squeeze made it unavoidable. I can assure you that I grabbed the rope immediately I felt the pain, and by then it was too late.
Mark
I have perforated my eardrum quite easily without warning. I had no problem equalising, but the rate of my descent and a sudden hood squeeze made it unavoidable. I can assure you that I grabbed the rope immediately I felt the pain, and by then it was too late.
Mark
Suffer from easily bursting eardrums? Or pain?
Learn to perform, what I call, Circular Equalizing.
http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?p=473057&highlight=circular#post473057
This link to assist with simplifying mouthfill technique:
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?p=544616#post544616"]Equalization problem in inverted position - Page 2[/ame]
Learn to perform, what I call, Circular Equalizing.
http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?p=473057&highlight=circular#post473057
This link to assist with simplifying mouthfill technique:
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?p=544616#post544616"]Equalization problem in inverted position - Page 2[/ame]
Sam, please don't take my comments so personally. despite what you think they are not directed at you. there is definitely some serious denial around that we can continue going deeper and deeper without improving safety standards and that everything will be fine and any serious incidents that may happen will be totally unavoidable. :head people seem to obsess about what's fair and what's unfair. from where i stand safety concerns often appear to come secondary to fairness in the world of competitive freediving.