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Carlos Coste's record invalid?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Jorg

Sharkbait
Nov 15, 2001
793
96
133
I just wanted to post about this. Very curious to why it's not valid!
 

CEngelbrecht

Well-Known Member
Oct 31, 2002
618
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All I heard was that he had some equalising problems going up from 61m, and had to grab the rope, subsequently disqualifying the dive.
Stig Severinsen's dive aparently is ok'ed for now (awaiting drug tests). Means the record is his alone at present.

Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen
 

Jorg

Sharkbait
Nov 15, 2001
793
96
133
Grab the rope? And they just know this now? after almost 1.5 month? If so, strange... You would think that those kind of things are immediatly checked after the dive and that the official rectification will be depending on the dopingtest only and not again reviewing the video tapes by the AIDA board. The judges who where there should decide if the dive was technically okay... I hope that AIDA comes with an official statement about this.
 

Jorg

Sharkbait
Nov 15, 2001
793
96
133
Here the answer of Carlos Coste.... This is very sad!
-----------

Hello friends
Yes, we have a problem with my CWWF record. This id my personal opinion about:
The last Sept.28th, I brake a world record with official AIDA judges: Marcello De Matteis and Perry Gladstone, When I descent few meters before the plate I had a problem with an ear. I did once a single hold on the rope for balance, but I didn’t grip the rope again. Just touched the plate following the ascent.
The judges verified the tapes, they didn’t manifest doubts to the organizer or the phycisian.They said after reviewed the tapes: “The record is OK, you only touch one time, the Record is waiting for doping test”. Thirty three days later, appears publishing in the AIDA website, this record is not valid.
If the judges had demostrated some doubt, I have could try again, because the event finished one week later.
These actions show AIDA like a not serious asociation, with many rules, but with no professional judges able to recognize records around the world.

I have many questions about that:
·Why is the objective to designate two judges: one class A, and other class D?
·Are able the judges to homologate records?
·If they are able, Why other person from AIDA can change their decision?
·What is the sense to spend a lot of money paying all expenses to two judges?
·If the freediver broke the rules.Why the judges didn’t say anything about that during the event?
·If the judges made mistakes, Who is responsible for that?.
·Do you have any idea how much money, time and effort spend in an event to homologate records?
·Why the judges haven’t enough autority to validate records?.
·Why AIDA didn’t designate the judge of the judges for all records around the world, because at the end the last decision is from him?

I'm very sad for this problem. We lost very much time, training,money and esfuerzo y sacrificio por esta gran estupidez. Por si fuera poco mi imagen como deportista serio está siendo dañada ante la prensa por la falta de claridad en la decición.

Well, Bye

Carlos Coste From Caracas, Venezuela
[email protected]
http://www.carloscoste.com
 

Adrian

Deeper Blue Beachcomber
Supporter
Nov 23, 2002
2,691
533
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Originally posted by Jorg
Here the answer of Carlos Coste.... This is very sad!
-----------

Hello friends........
...........................
I'm very sad for this problem. We lost very much time, training,money and esfuerzo y sacrificio por esta gran estupidez. Por si fuera poco mi imagen como deportista serio está siendo dañada ante la prensa por la falta de claridad en la decición.

Well, Bye

Carlos Coste From Caracas, Venezuela
[email protected]
http://www.carloscoste.com

Translating that last part of Carlos's post for those who don't speak Spanish:

"We lost very much time, training, money, effort and sacrifice for this great stupidity. On top of it all, my image as a serious sportsman is being damaged in the eyes of the press due to the lack of clarity in the decision."


Adrian
 

Jorg

Sharkbait
Nov 15, 2001
793
96
133
The official answer of AIDA International:
-------------------

Dear Carlos,
We can understand your grudge and we do apologize for the inconvenients of this problem, but we would like to add some comments to your message.

The AIDA Regulations for World Record recognition clearly mention that only the AIDA Executive Board, usually representated by the AIDA Responsible for Records (Mr Dieter Baumann) or the AIDA President (me) are able to recognize definitely any World Record performances.

As these few persons are of course not able to go for each World Record attempts all around the world, the AIDA International Judges are sent in the attempts to observe and to check if the regulations are respected or not, if the measurment is correctely made or not, etc... And not to help the organization or to teach the athlete what he is allowed to do or not... Then, they send their official reports, with official videotapes, to the Responsible for Records, who definitely checks if everything was perfectely respected or not ?

And I would add that the Judges would be greatly helped if the athletes would also knew the Regulations, and take care about what they are allowed to do or not... So, you also aren't a serious nor a professional athlete as far as I can see... But you're right on one point, AIDA nor the AIDA Judges are professionnals, but only amateurs who work to try to help other amateurs in our sport... Like you, like me, and like probabely most of the persons reading this message.

Sincerely,

Sébastien NAGEL, President of AIDA From Lausanne, Switzerland
[email protected]
http://www.aida-international.org
 
  • Like
Reactions: fpernett

fpernett

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2001
832
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A lot of words, but what was the reason to not validate the record?.
[thanks for the info Jorg]
 

Erik

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2001
4,731
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It really bothers me that a guy can spend hours and $$ and just get "invalid" posted on the web. How about an explanation of why? Or did I miss it somewhere?
Erik Y.
 

Walrus

Oz freediver
Oct 3, 2001
693
77
0
My first reaction was I thought it was unfair, he only grabbed the rope once. What I didn't know is you are only allowed to grab the rope AT THE BOTTOM. Apparently they re-wrote the rules within the last year:-


6.6.3 The freediver must descend and ascend without fins or any other means of propulsion. He may not pull
on the rope during descent or ascent. Only a single hold on the rope without shifting the point of
support is allowed in order to stop the descent and start the ascent.

So yes Carlos broke this rule, so if anyone is to blame it would be the judges on location for not being %100 certain and checking if what Carlos did is allowed under the rules.

It's a pity, Carlos is a great athelete and clearly made the dive clean. I know of at least one intance of a record being set when there was a very obvious line violation, yet it was Ok'd by AIDA ?!


:duh :duh

Cheers,
Wal
 

CEngelbrecht

Well-Known Member
Oct 31, 2002
618
97
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---
It's a pity, Carlos is a great athelete and clearly made the dive clean. I know of at least one intance of a record being set when there was a very obvious line violation, yet it was Ok'd by AIDA ?!
---

It IS a grand pitty for Carlos when working so hard setting up the whole spectacle and all the training and basically completing the attempt and all of that. But the things he writes are a bit out of line, if that's the verdict on the attempt, then so be it. Because it's a record, the absolute best human achievement for the discipline, the system of evaluation is aparently more strict than with regular competition achievements, which is why every detail of the dive is run over by a top forum and drug tests are mandatory. If Carlos at an instant closed his hand illegally on the rope without intention, then the dive must be nulled. I trust the verdict of the people responsible, and Carlos claiming that he didn't do anything wrong sounds to me like the regular ambitious athlete refusing to admit tiny mistakes.
Still...what the hell. Of course Carlos is frustrated, when it's such a little thing. He's forgiven. Carlos, be the big athlete you are, learn from adversity and get back into the game and try again.

And incidently, past AIDA maljudgings is not an excuse to make a new wrong verdict for whatever reason; the whole AIDA has the last couple of years revolutioned into not screwing up anymore on basic sports management. That'd be a ridiculous reason.

A thought: For the sake of cleaning the air of credibility (which AIDA has had her problems with), it might be a good idea if AIDA found room on her website to include each record attempt on video (if not only for a limited time), so people can download it and view the verdict for themselves. I don't know the technical and practical problems in doing this, but now I got it out.

Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen
 

ash

New Member
Nov 5, 2002
160
22
0
Chris

You are right. If an athlete does violate one of the rules that apply to the discipline, then the attempt must be declared a failure.

I don't think anyone has a problem with that, especially at the world record level.

The problem is the time it took for that decision to be made. I realize that the top AIDA officials must check the video evidence before the record can be ratified but leaving the athlete hanging for this long isn’t professional at all.

I think that the evidence should be checked quickly enough for the athlete to try again if the record is invalidated by a violation. I fully understand that this can be difficult when dealing with a remote location but surely it is possible to courier the videos to AIDA and have a decision in a few days, thus allowing a second attempt while the infrastructure (safety divers, equipment and judges) is in place? Setting it all up again is so much harder and more expensive than just having another go. Or am I just being unrealistic and idealistic?

As for the allegations of inconsistent decisions by the judges, the entire process should be transparent. If there is a reason for a record to be invalidated and the reason is on those tapes, then the footage should be made available to the athlete at the very least.

My 2 cents, for what it’s worth.

Cheers

Ash
 

Adrian

Deeper Blue Beachcomber
Supporter
Nov 23, 2002
2,691
533
218
67
Another possibility is to have a "check list" of all the violations, read and signed by the athlete, so he is sure of how to avoid them if a situation arises. This would reinforce and refresh the rules and no one could claim they didn't know. Maybe it sounds silly, or maybe they already do it, but it wouldn't be a bad idea for the judges to sit down ith the athlete and review the rules. A half hour could save a lot of headaches. Especially in trans-national situations where the judges are from different countries than the athletes. Does AIDA have their main documents translated (and updated) into different languages?

As for sending videos by courier, if there is a section of the video in doubt, just take the individual frames from that section, probalby less than a minute's worth, and send them by email as individual pics. Faster and cheaper than courier but one would have to have the software.

Adrian
 

rigdvr

Not Available in Stores
May 28, 2002
1,317
130
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is it just me or did the AIDA rep sound like an ass in that reply? Even when being attacked organizations shouldnt retaliate on a personal level...that was tacky and definately lowerd my respect for them as leaders in the sport.:hmm
 

Shadowkiller

Digital Hunter
Jul 30, 2002
1,272
266
0
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Originally posted by Jorg
The official answer of AIDA International:
-------------------
So, you also aren't a serious nor a professional athlete as far as I can see...

Sébastien NAGEL, President of AIDA From Lausanne, Switzerland

Yeah Rig, that is way out of line. People generally only stoop to personal attacks when they don't have a valid argument to put forward.

Certainly doesn't make me want to join AIDA...:hmm
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
155
35
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And I would add that the Judges would be greatly helped if the athletes would also knew the Regulations, and take care about what they are allowed to do or not... So, you also aren't a serious nor a professional athlete as far as I can see... But you're right on one point, AIDA nor the AIDA Judges are professionnals, but only amateurs who work to try to help other amateurs in our sport... Like you, like me, and like probabely most of the persons reading this message.

Sincerely,

Sébastien NAGEL, President of AIDA From Lausanne, Switzerland
[email protected]
http://www.aida-international.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Carlos,
Come to FREE, we don't talk to people like this.

David
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
155
35
118
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Originally posted by CEngelbrecht
---

A thought: For the sake of cleaning the air of credibility (which AIDA has had her problems with), it might be a good idea if AIDA found room on her website to include each record attempt on video (if not only for a limited time), so people can download it and view the verdict for themselves. I don't know the technical and practical problems in doing this, but now I got it out.

Chris Engelbrecht, Copenhagen

^^^^^^^^ What he said ^^^^^^^^
 

ash

New Member
Nov 5, 2002
160
22
0
Yep, I noticed that line in Sébastien Nagel's quote. I was hoping it was just a language thing and he didn't actually mean exactly what was said but the more I read it, the more disappointed I get.

I hope we're wrong and it is just a mix up, I really do because that's a very arrogant thing to say to one of the top athletes in the field, especially considering the federation is meant to be there for the divers, not the other way round.

Ash
 

ApneaBlue

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2002
155
35
118
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even if he thought it, he shouldn't have said it...not very professional IMO. And I belive he's a smart enough guy where the "language barrier" is not a factor.
 

Jorg

Sharkbait
Nov 15, 2001
793
96
133
The thing that bothers me the most is that without informing the athlete first they already put 'invalid' on the website. Everybody sees this posted and Carlos has to hear it from other people. Not very nice... And only after asking questions to AIDA they come with an 'official statement', wich in my opinion isn't that official when I read it. A little bit too much emotion when you ask me...
 
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