check this out!!!! monster fish shot at 425'

[Murat]

Top reason for this argument!!!!!

If you have big egos no doubt you will feel superiority against other, be freediver or scuba but at the end with this physicology you will not be good freediver or scuba diver. You will be either dead or alone. :hmm

So we should stop try to satisfy our egos here and dive more frequently.

 

[Amphibious]

However, I don't consider it a sport, but then again I don't consider scuba diving a sport, an nice hobby maybe, but not a sport. It's kind of like the difference between bicycling and motorcyling. One takes money, and a bit of skill, while the other takes lots of physical training. All one has to do is look out at the "athletes" you see on most dive boats, especially "tech-dive" boats rofl , and you can tell that the word sport doesn't apply.

I guess that pretty much sums up my stance too. I take a hard line on scuba spearfishing, and catch a lot of flak for it. to me it's not a sport, it's a harvest. you don't see net fisherman posing with their catch and calling it a sport. Sport involves challenge and physical ability. in the relm of recreational scuba diving I don;t see either of these applying. he harvested this brute legally. he's practicing a no-bycatch harvest. good for him. but I would not call it sporting. my original post was on the available info at the time, which was a guy on trimix open circut shot a huge grouper. the fact he is a comercial spearoo does charge my view of this harvest quite a bit.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Glad you clarified your statement.
Your 1.5 line paragraph reads differently, IMO.

Thanks for the welcome, but I may follow Mike, and leave before I get started.
Chad

Thats a real shame that Mike and you can only play with people who agree with everything they think and say. I haven't gone farther through the thread, but already there is evidence that some people have had their minds changed. Why not stay around and engage in a free exchange of ideas? Maybe you will convert some people.

I've already learned more about the entire thing here than I have on Spearboard, where anything but adoration was shouted down.

Regarding the scuba vs. freediving thing- its very old for me too. I used scuba most of my life, and only 10 years ago returned to freediving. Its just what I happen to like at this point in my life, but I really don't condemn anyone for using scuba. But I tried to express a different concern on Spearboard. I said that in the early 60s, I was able to shoot a warsaw grouper at 60 feet and no one thought that was unusual. Now it appears that you have to dive to hundreds of feet, so I asked if that was not evidence that they were getting scarce, and that continued use of technology to get them deeper might be a concern. I even started a separate thread so as not to rain on the parade of adulation in the thread reporting the catch. But even that was not acceptable. No one had to read the thread or respond, but it was taken down by management.

At least on this forum those same guys from Spearboard are willing to discuss the fact that the fish was probably not a breeder, say that it was sold to the market, and provide other details, but on Spearboard they seem so defensive and so in control of the situation that they feel free to just shout down or shut down any discussion.

I think its refreshing that this forum will permit a diversity of opinion, and I hope that doesn't cause them to leave. We really can learn from each other if we try to communicate.

 

[Spinal Tap]

I think this is an accomplishment...in tech diving, but nothing more. I read the divers account and felt a little embarrassed for him. Specifically when he said the fish came from 100' away to check him out. It then stopped and lit-up to challenge him. He then had enough time to shoot two spears into it's head. With the fish not dead, a powerhead mounted on a kill spike (assuming it is between 12-18" long) and detonated it in the head of the fish.

The best part of that thread was when the diver said his accomplishment isn't just for the team that took part in the dive, but it was for the entire spearfishing world. To me that was a little presumptuous, and reading the many posts here as well as the FDL, I'd have to say that much of the world has said: no thanks!

Regarding the fish and it's "end of life cycle", how was that surmised? Even the guy that shot the fish admitted that he knew of a person that got a Warsaw grouper that was 10.5' long whereas his was only 7.5' long, and that either he or the guy with the bigger warsaw grouper believe these fish grew to bigger sizes than even the goliath groupers. Also, this fish sounded like it was the biggest on that wreck because all the other Warsaws they saw were a lot smaller (40-100lbs). That tells me that fish was the dominant fish and probably still in it's prime.

I've seen 400-500lb Black Seabass while diving in Southern California. They too come right up to the diver, or they stay motionless with the exception of a few fins slowly moving to stay in place. They often do this to wait for the diver to approach. So shot placement on fish like these aren't exceptionally difficult, all you need is a gun with enough power to penetrate the skull. And these fish aren't reef bound. Admittedly, I know nothing about hunting grouper in wrecks, but I assume the homing instinct is so strong, even when shot and not dead, the fish usually finds a hole to hole up. This gives the diver time to reload and shoot it till it's dead or use a powerhead. A BSB does not hole up, so it's a kill shot or nothing.

I wish hunting for pelagics was as easy as Bigsy says, but the fact that there are no commercial spearos targeting free swimming pelagics (like there are for groupers in FL) is telling of either the difficulties or ineffeciencies of such an operation. For that matter, why don't scuba spearos target pelagic species (freeshafting or otherwise)? If I remember correctly, Greg Pickering spent almost two hours fighting his 300lb+ record YFT.

Lastly, Spearboard is a great community...if you're one of the guys that started it or a buddy of that group. If not then your posts, no matter how objective, will be deleted and probably laughed at over beers at one of the buddy's house...if they don't like you or what you have to say. For those of you that have gone over to look at that particular thread, how were the people who posed a dissenting view treated?

 

[biggsy]

I wish hunting for pelagics was as easy as Bigsy says, but the fact that there are no commercial spearos targeting free swimming pelagics (like there are for groupers in FL) is telling of either the difficulties or ineffeciencies of such an operation. For that matter, why don't scuba spearos target pelagic species (freeshafting or otherwise)?

I actually said I did not think it was very sporting and I did not see the challenge in it, but coming from me that should not mean much. I have not been around free diving very much but I have been trying to educate myself and keep an open mind.

The only Pelagics I target are amberjack and cobia and that is done on SCUBA and with a great deal of success (except cobias, still trying for one). Amberjack are indeed targeted by commercials. Cobias I don't know if they are targeted by commercials. As far as I know there is not a huge market for pelagics in the Gulf of Mexico other than AJ, so I don't think that statement applies to this situation very well.

As far as other pelagics, a lot of them are not allowed to be speared in FL. Tripletail comes to mind, but they can be hook and lined freely. As far as why SCUBA spearos do not target them, I don't know, personally, I don't even see them on this coast and this is where I dive so they are not targeted. Others that come to mind Dolphin, wahoo, kingfish, spanish macks, cero macks (I believe they are all legal to spear). I believe some of the charter boats fish for kings at night but I cant remember seeing any of these speared on this coast recently. White and blue marlin, sail and swords (I don't know the regs on these, but even seeing them on this coast is very very rare).

Lastly, Spearboard is a great community...if you're one of the guys that started it or a buddy of that group. If not then your posts, no matter how objective, will be deleted and probably laughed at over beers at one of the buddy's house on a Wednesday night...if they don't like you or what you have to say. For those of you that have gone over to look at that particular thread, how were the people who posed a dissenting view treated?

That's not true. Posts that are deleted are usually inflammatory, off-topic (politics) or the such. The moderators do their best to be objective and some of the more controversial members such as Bill McIntyre, I personally try and pull them aside and do my best to handle situations. That is just me, I cannot speak for the other mods.

Do you feel like you have been slighted by having some posts taken down? If you have issues send me a PM directly and I will do my best to handle it.

BTW...biggsy is with 2 "g"s

Regards,

John Biggs

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Do you feel like you have been slighted by having some posts taken down? If you have issues send me a PM directly and I will do my best to handle it.

John Biggs

You have a PM

 

[Spinal Tap]

John,

Apologies for the misspelled name. I don't believe any of my posts have been deleted by management, but quite a few posts that I have followed have dissappeared. When the owner of the thread questions about it dissappearing, I could only guess it was the owners(of SB), moderator(s), or someone else involved in SB who axed it.

In the "Do I shoot or do I run" thread on SB, a Canadian tech diver posted something (don't really remember what he asked), but it wasn't "holy shit" and alot of people jumped down his throat. What I remember most was one guy asking you "can't you do something about this..." I haven't followed up, but I believe most if not all his posts were deleted.

It's not what my experience is on that board, but the general atmosphere of SB . Name calling and threats are prohibited...but if those threats or names are directed at Bill McIntyre, well then it's O.K...

None of it bothers me. I only treat these websites as entertainment.

 

[biggsy]

The canadian tech diver was actually a post by a guy from Canada that was trying to get hits to his website. He is not even a diver. Here is the originating thread for that on the Canadian site. He was calling the fish a fake [ame="http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172141"]Holy!!! Look at the size of this fish!! - RedFlagDeals.com Forums[/ame]

The board then had some fun with him because he was mocking Americans...I split the thread let it run it's course and then took it down, no harm done, he started it. We thought he had enough press, now it was time to move on.

The Bill issues are touchy and I have talked to Bill at length in PM's and I have done as much as I can personally to help. In my opinion Bill does not help the situation much. I think if Bill stuck to diving advice, the world would be a better place and people would ignore him and the free divers could learn a lot from the man. I look up to him for his exerience, that's just me. Others have a different view. It obvious some don't like him, if they just did their best to stay away from each other, we would not have this.

If we stayed away from hot and heavy topics and talked politics and other silly internet issues in person, it would be better. I wish it stayed between the buoys more or was kept to light humor, that's just me.

I hope you have a good weekend, I am off for a tournament and then laying a memorial plaque in Miami for esmiami on spearboard. Should be a long weekend.

 

[Alison]

I think if Bill stuck to diving advice, the world would be a better place and people would ignore him and the free divers could learn a lot from the man. I look up to him for his exerience, that's just me. Others have a different view. It obvious some don't like him, if they just did their best to stay away from each other, we would not have this.

I too look up to Bill, I find him to be a really nice knowledgable guy and probably the least controversial person on the board. For my money this board is a better place with him here
BTW thats a hell of a fish!!

 

[Spinal Tap]

In my opinion Bill does not help the situation much. I think if Bill stuck to diving advice, the world would be a better place and people would ignore him and the free divers could learn a lot from the man. I look up to him for his exerience, that's just me. Others have a different view. It obvious some don't like him, if they just did their best to stay away from each other, we would not have this.

I hope you have a good weekend, I am off for a tournament and then laying a memorial plaque in Miami for esmiami on spearboard. Should be a long weekend.

I've learned alot from Bill. He took the time to answer my questions and send me pictures of riggings to go with instructions.

I believe SB is very lucky to have him on that board. You guys get a lot of newbie divers from CA going to that board and they all ask the same questions. Bill is the only person that takes the time to answer each one thoroughly and include pictures. There are guys with more experience and there are guys that are better divers than Bill, but he's the only one to take time to explain things to the newbies.

I also know alot of guys have privately emailed him and called him all sorts of names, but then in the next paragraph they have the nerve to ask him to take them out on his boat. These guys will also ask him to show them pictures of rigged guns or floats.

I've seen Bill's posts on various subjects including politics prior the the last presidential election. I got the feeling that most if not all his initial posts are his opinions on a particular subject, politician, law...etc. When guys reply, it's usually an attack on Bill and rarely a rebuttal of the subject. And Bill responds in kind to those attacks. Is that what you mean by Bill not helping the matter any?

What ever the case, I believe we should take this back to SB. We've suddenly become like that Canadian tech diver and have hijacked the thread to talk about SB.

Hope you have a nice weekend and a good time at the tournament.

Nate in SD

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Wow! Thanks for the kind words. I feel sorry for you that you feel the need to react so stongly to someone who simply asked you to stay on the board. I can't do anything about your hatred for me, but I hope you won't hold it against the board in general.

That's great that you have such a wonderful history here, and I'm sorry that you seem unable to tolerate what you sense as a change. It would be a hell of a thing to be exposed to differing opinions and have to rationally rebut them. I've never been on any internet forum where everyone agreed with me, but of course you know that. However, when I've been on forums where people were willing to discuss things rationally without getting up tight, I've actually had my mind changed.

I can't really comment on any change in attitude since I have just been here a short time.

I'm unclear on the principle that says I shouldn't mention your name. Both you and Chad said you were leaving because people were not always agreeing with you, and I mentioned your name as well as his because I thought both of you had a lot to contribute. And more importantly, by staying you seemed to have shown evidence of changing minds and could probably do more of that in the future.

After all, on Spearboard virtually everyone feels the way you do, and over there, you don't even seem to feel a need to justify the way you feel. In fact, justifying anything is actually seen as a sign of weakness since it at least theoretically allows for the possibility of a difference in opinion. Since this forum has a bit wider POV, you have actually offered justification for your POV, and I have felt like I learned much more about the warsaw shooting than I ever did there. Admittedly, I may have quit reading that thread a bit too soon for two reasons. First, I got tired of reading "Oh shit." But more important, I thought there was no room there for any question I might have. That guy is your friend, he is a hero, and any comparison of him with Neil Armstrong and their technical proficiency, their bravery, and the goal of all that technology and bravery is just not acceptable.

Anyway, in spite of the fact that you think I'm a grumpy old man, I'm only one of many subscribers here. I hope you will not tar them with the same brush, and will continue to contribute, educate, and even convert others to your POV.

 

[Amphibious]

wow..... 53 posts.....

 

[Steel Slinger]

Chad
Glad to see you married a 40 year old, 6ft2 100kg, Hairy Australian Male who dosent like spearing on scuba, each to their own i suppose.

Um, I believe he said, "You sound like my wife", not "look" like my wife. You really aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?

 

[Steel Slinger]

Lastly, Spearboard is a great community...if you're one of the guys that started it or a buddy of that group. If not then your posts, no matter how objective, will be deleted and probably laughed at over beers at one of the buddy's house...if they don't like you or what you have to say. For those of you that have gone over to look at that particular thread, how were the people who posed a dissenting view treated?

Uh, yeah. That's what we do.

For your information, this "buddy network" you refer to does not exist. We (the mods), get into heated debates, and try to keep things as diverse as possible. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Do you always talk out of your ass, with no basis for your opinions?

 

[Amphibious]

so you mods come over here to stir the pot? very proffesional.

this will always be the home of people that want to take their spearfishing to a higher level and not the weekend warrior or wannabe. for most of us here Spearfishing is not a hobby, it's a way of life. those that can, Spearfish. those that can't scuba.

Welcome to DB.

 

[Almostafish]

Well said that man! Spearfishing chooses you..

Still a hell of a fish though however the hell they caught it.

 

[Spinal Tap]

We (the mods), get into heated debates,...

...over a couple beers at a buddy's house? Or did you mean with members and visitors to your website? If so, aren't you suppose to keep an even keel as you MODERATE heated debates as opposed to join in these "debates" and call member names?

Do you always talk out of your ass, with no basis for your opinions?

To the members of DB, I'd like to present to you one of the moderators from Spearboard. If you too would like to have them follow you to another website just to make snide remarks or call you names then please join the "discussions and debates" going on daily on their website now.

 

[Steel Slinger]

Um, I haven't had a beer with any other mods in probably two years. And that was at a function when ALL spearboard members were invited. Again, you have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.

The irony of your insults is that the HEATED DEBATES we get in to is over how to keep the spearfishing forum the MOST OPEN. My philosophy is that even people who talk out of their ass should be able to post. It's a rule that protects people like you, who say things with absolutely no idea what you are talking about. These are the kinds of debates we get into. Sorry that you don't feel like you are part of some club.

As for "following" you to another forum. HA! You think a little too highly of yourself. I looked at this thread because it was about the warsaw. I am afraid I have got more important things to do with my time than follow some guy named "Spinal Tap", who I do not even know, around cyberspace. The only thing more ignorant that I have seen than your comments is that someone said shooting the warsaw was not sporting. NOT SPORTING? What a joke. I'd like to see that person go down to 400' and shoot a 400# fish.

Maybe it was a little crude to ask if you always talk out of your ass, but that is exactly what you were doing. You were making untrue comments in which you have no factual basis and no first hand knowledge. And that classifies as talking out of your ass.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

P.S.: I have to ask myself two questions. First, why didn't you have the balls to raise your grievances on Spearboard? You have to go to another site to trash talk? I can assure you, contrary to uneducated opinions, the thread would have been allowed to stay up. Second, why do you post on Spearboard at all? If the site is a good ole boy network, and all?

.

I can't let that one pass. I started a separate thread on Spearboard to inquire whether there should be limits on how deep we should chase surviving Warsaws and asking whether they were in danger. I said that I shot one in the early 60s at 60 feet, but now all I read about is fish at great depths. I said that I had great respect for the bravery and technical expetise of the divers involved. The thread lasted about 3 hours and was taken down after enough people had taken shots at me.

If you have the balls to question anything at all on Spearboard, you will get shouted down, called names, and perhaps see the thread pulled. That explains why there is very little dissent over there from the consensus established by a very few.

Fairly frequently I get PMs saying something like "you know I agree with you on that subject, but I can't say it in public because I'm tired of being shouted down."

I've said it many times before, but I think you should give serious consideration to the model used on Freedivelist. Any opinion or disagreement is welcome as long as you don't engage in personal attacks or name calling. Such an environment is so much more conducive to exchange of ideas.

 

[Amphibious]

The only thing more ignorant that I have seen than your comments is that someone said shooting the warsaw was not sporting. NOT SPORTING? What a joke. I'd like to see that person go down to 400' and shoot a 400# fish.

the DIVE was challenging. Getting a 400lb fish to the surface without dying is Challenging. Shooting something the size of a small car that is just sitting there at 10ft is not sporting. a 400lb fish has no predators. getting with range to shoot it would be very very easy if it were not for the extreme depth. next time someone dives the britanic will you tell them what a sporting dive they had? you'll tell them they had a challenging dive. if I shot a dairy cow in the head, 10ft away, with my rifle, should I tell people how sporting it was? if that same cow is at 10,000ft on the side of the mountain is it sporting? the shot isn;t any more challenging because of it's location, nor is any more sporting. the trip there certainly is a challenge.