CMAS is killing U/W sports

[laminar]

I think AIDA has its hands full with the depth, time, distance sport and getting a network of instructors and training opportunities and supervising world records. They are getting better and better at it and I think will continue to attract good people to the executive and most importantly, at the national and local levels.

Jome is completely right. You have to have the approach of offering events and services that people WANT to be a part of and you will probably succeed. In my mind, finswimming and spearfishing are very separate sports with their own cultures and histories. I would think they would be served best by their own organizations. Does AIDA know what spearos and finswimmers want? Probably not. Ideally, you'd have an organization for those sports run by professionals from that sport. Same as AIDA. I think that the Achilles heel of CMAS is the very fact that they want to be THE organization for all of the high profile underwater sports and activities. The Olympic carrot, no matter how far ahead of their outstretched hands, is their main motivation, I would imaginge. I think it would be a mistake for AIDA to seek the same goal.

My 2 cents.

 

[ggarrett]

...depth, time, distance sport... finswimming and spearfishing are very separate sports... Does AIDA know what spearos and finswimmers want?

Two of the three main freediving disciplines are pool events. When I entered freediving I came to it from the pool to find that most people come to freediving from the sea. On this continent, at least, I would guess that the majority of freedivers enjoy depth diving in the seas more than the pool disciplines.

In trying to establish freediving as a sport in the United States, the USAA looks to the scuba and spearfishing communities for prospective new recruits. The main event last for the USAA was DEMA to publicize this new sport. DEMA looks to be the centerpiece of USAA's 2006 calendar again as well. In the USA, it seems that the AIDA (USAA) feels it needs finswimmers and spearfishers in order to grow and survive. Therefore, separating these sports might stunt the growth of freediving as we know it on this continent.

In the USA, I believe most attendees at freediving clinics come from the scuba-spearfishing-finswimming communities. Right or wrong, that appears to be the market that has the money. So, it's not surprising that there's a turf war over who will sanction the sport, make certifications, train judges, teach clinics, etc. The answer, of course is to make a bigger pie so everyone can have their own piece of the action.

I agree with Peter that AIDA has it hands full with depth, distance, and duration. It would be nice if AIDA North America could focus on just those three disciplines, but that's not the world we find ourselves in. In the end, Apnea distinguishes the AIDA from CMAS. Keeping the focus on Apnea will assure AIDA of its identity. Apnea is what AIDA does best.

 

[donmoore]

Peter, you have some very good points. Likewise so do you ggarrnett. It maybe unrealistic to ask AIDA to hold other apnea competitions and events, but it sure is sad that we can’t either all be under one roof or at least in complementing organizations! As ggarrnett pointed out so well - AIDA needs the other apnea divers for growth and survival.

The other thing AIDA needs other apnea divers for is fan support. The only people who really care how long, far, or deep a diver can go on a single breath, are those who can relate. Those are people who have held their breath underwater. Only a small minority have the natural ability or will develop the ability to do well in an AIDA competition. But if there are other apnea sports they can do without looking ridiculous, then the may choose to participate and at the very least will be fans of AIDA athletes.

Where I live there are many tasty fish and almost everyone fishes. What potential freedivers usually want to know is with their limited skills (like 20 foot depth limit and 30 second breathhold) can they shoot a good eating fish. Fortunately the answer here is yes and if they go and try they quickly learn that although there are fish to spear within their ability, there are many more just out of their reach. That’s were many start.

I’m sure this is true in many parts of the world and the same desire to learn from pure discipline freedivers probably works for hockey or any apnea water sport.
don

 

[spaghetti]

As I wrote in this thread, i think that Cmas is unefficient, old minded, even ridiculous. But let me say, with no offense for anyone of you mates, three things pro Cmas and against all this easy pro Aida enthusiasm.
1-Cmas officials rejected "constant" not because they're pervert fools, but because they consider it dangerous for the life and health of the athletes and referees. There's a Cmas scientific board, composed by valuable doctors and officials, who responsibly stated that "constant" competitions can not be held in acceptable safety conditions, and that long-term consequences on human health have not yet been clinically tested enough to give green light.
2-Without one world federation recognized be the olimpyc committee, without one rule protocol valid for all, without credible medical-scientific certainties, freediving as a sport has no future. You may dive, you may set records, you may have fun. But this will never be an organized, respected,massively popular sport. By now, Cmas miserably has failed in achieving this goal. But I don't think that a private organization as Aida will succeed: what if, after aida, other private org's may be set, with different rules again, and others again? The best thing should be changing and modernizing Cmas from inside. Hard, I know...
3-Love it or leave it makes no sense to me. Cmas is a world comitee made up of national federations, and national federations have elective organisms, elected by local clubs and circles of divers, spearos and finswimmers. There could have been, and there could be, a democratic way to change Cmas, starting from the people. Trying this is better than fragmentation into private associations in struggle between them basically for $.

Respectfully, just my opinion. Please, feel free to tell me how i'm wrong.

 

[PoseidonSv]

How is CMAS going to change when the mass of people you say will be the ones who democratically decide from the bottom of the organization theough the club is infact 99.9% scuba divvers? I think they have no idea and dont give a dman about freediving or breatholding activities of activities when swimming underwater. This is the problem with CMAS it would be like if the soccer agency would start to decide over the rules for volleyball games.

 

[DeepThought]

I'll make a short attempt at a few:

1- Yes, this is what CMAS thinks, but I just disagree with their resolution (no constant). The researches I am aware of that helped CMAS shape that point of view discuss lung squeezes and long lasting damage from BO/LMC's.
I think most health risks in constant are due to the divers themselves. There are freedivers among us who consider a constant dive that was successful by the AIDA rules still successful if they spit blood afterwards. Same for broken eardrums (and not to troll this thread assume I mean avoidable ones). I also think some people might not consider their sambas and blackouts seriously enough.
CMAS's action was to stop constant and put JB on, what they got? (so I've heard) more blackouts and they weren't short on lungsqueezes as well - yes at 15m of depth. I think blackouts and apnea are too connected to be abolished by such a solution (if such a solution even exist!).
Regarding their referees risking their life, I think that's just plain arrogance from CMAS not acknowledging tech diving because it isn't a part of their organization. I think tech diving has a high enough safety record to claim we can support freedivers, I doubt people would have risked their life otherwise so some dude will get on top in some competition.
And beside that point, it seems to me that people who have been freediving for many years are healthier than most of ex-professional sportsmen, all those runners/football/hocky players with ruined joints and ex-athletics with legiment problems and lets not start with boxers and grand-prix drivers...
At the end of all, I am anyway willing to accept those minor risks left for my enjoyment.

2- I don't care about the olympics, and If only AIDA would deal with freediving (as it should from CMAS's act) and the IOC will want freediving inside the olympics being AIDA and not CMAS shouldn't disturb them much in my opinion (I find it hard to believe that agreement is binding forever under all circumstances).

3- So one should stop doing constant weight while waiting for the change to come within CMAS? admireable if you're willing to do this, I wouldn't have. Their draconic rule feels to me like a stab in the back of any person who appriciate freedome of choice. I would've let them kick me out for not going with their rules (so I'll be a part of their statistics).
Although I find their scuba array to be of better quality than PADI's I'm actualy ashamed I have a certificate of an organization that will do such a thing.

 

[PoseidonSv]

Regarding CMAS and Tech diving.

In my country there is Tech oriented courses that is possible to go and get a CAMS certification in this. I think CMAS has finally understood that deepdiving is not to be made on only air.

 

[fpernett]

1-Cmas officials rejected "constant" not because they're pervert fools, but because they consider it dangerous for the life and health of the athletes and referees. There's a Cmas scientific board, composed by valuable doctors and officials, who responsibly stated that "constant" competitions can not be held in acceptable safety conditions, and that long-term consequences on human health have not yet been clinically tested enough to give green light.

I'll not compare freediving with other sports that are more dangerous, by far. But, I really want to know what evidence they have to ban it (which is not a good way to improve the safety). The main concern as mentioned before are lung edema (lung squeeze) and long term effects on Central Nervous System.

The lung squeeze is not exclusive to constant ballast, in fact, the main literature reports are from spearfishing. There is no evidence that is related only with depth, but in diving habits of the victim, behavior like huge depth increases (seasonal diving), contractions, amount of exercise or eves stress, among others, can make you prone to lung squeeze. So it's not a depth only related problem, and deserves more investigation.

The long term adverse effects on the brain has been studied in Amas and is mainly related with Inadvertent or Sub-clinical Decompression sickness. Again, this is not only related to extreme depths. Again, the reported cases are from spearfishing divers (nothing against spearos, just an example to make my point). It's mainly related to the type of diving (inhale, full pack, FRC), depth, underwater time, surface interval time, dehydration, etc. So just blaming Depth as the Evil part is not fair.

I'm aware that with increasing depths we must redefine and test our security systems in order to respond to deep blackouts or "not-so-shallow black out".

CMAS is taking an ostrich attitude, education and research will make it safer, not banning

 

[SanSan]

CMAS is taking an ostrich attitude, education and research will make it safer, not banning

Yes, but if they are banning it then nobody can't point a finger and blame them. I haven't seen any effort from cmas to make the UW sports better, safer... No they are just what they like regardles of any athlete. They'd like to join all under them but nobody would like to work to make things better and something like this is the result:
A finnswimming competition got canceled again yesterday because of CMAS politics: http://www.h2oteam.com/index.php?menu_item=hppp
And the organizer said he will stop organizing it for good.

A 4 round championship, that was well organized and most imoprtantly cheap for the athletes is now gone. There were ower 300 competitiors on each round for 14 years, this year I think only about 50 registered.

I know our finswimming team is falling to peaces. Without propper competitions they can afford to attend they wont last any longer, as I think is the case in most other countries.

 

[jome]

I only read the full translation of the CMAS "ultimatum" from that link now and I have to say, it is ridiculous. They want to have full monopoly of all uw-activities.

I don't see it as a problem for scuba-divers and free divers. They can just laugh at their face and move on to another organization. That's what I will do anyway, if being forced to choose, and I'm sure the majority of my country men would choose similarily. My affiliation to someone sitting thousands of kilometers away, making money off my back is a fragile bond, which is solely based on MUTUAL benefit of this relationship. I have absolutely no problems severing it and saving a few bucks in the process...I don't pay them to tell me what to do, I pay them to enable me to better do what I like doing (and will keep on doing) anyway.

It is a problem for sports like finswimming and uw rugby, because there is no alternative. Either CMAS or no international federation (as far as I'm aware). I can only hope that people "see the light" and decide that no federation or rebuilding a new one is better than this utter bullshit. And I use the word bull***** because from the tone presented in that ultimatum I get the feeling that we are not treated in a nice and civil manner, so I see no reason to respond that way either...But finswimming is alread a pretty big and established sport. Just tearing it down and rebuilding it would be a very tough thing for the top athletes...

I don't see AIDA taking those sports under it's wings anytime soon. But maybe they could do a sort of a gesture to encourage some to choose a side. Introduce a new dicipline, such as 50m timed dynamic apnea. All it would take would be half a paragraph more in the current rules and we'd have something to offer to pissed of finswimmers... All it would take then is the desicion of a few idealistic elite swimmers to go with that and CMAS would probably start moving back to the "real world" from what ever "bizarro world" they're living in...

It would be funny if AIDA issued a parody of that message, mimicing the style and structure, but the message would be something like:
"AIDA whole heartedly welcomes everyone interested in underwater activities, of any race, nationality, religion or affiliation to join our common love of all things underwater. Let the recreational divers as well as professional sportsmen unite in peace love and harmony and celebrate the busum of mother earth, also know as the ocean" Or some new age hippie rhetoric like that...

 

[miguel]

This is an interesting discussion, my personal opinion is in spanish :vangry , we invites to all underwater comunitty in spanish to writes about this thread in our spanish forum

http://www.sportalsub.net/portal/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&Itemid=43&func=view&id=37&catid=20

Esta es una discusión interesante, my opinión personal va en español, invitamos a toda la comunidad subacuática de habla hispana a opinar acerca de este tema en nuestro foro en español:

http://www.sportalsub.net/portal/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&Itemid=43&func=view&id=37&catid=20

Aqui va mi opinión acerca de este tema:

Estimados usuarios, quería compartir con ustedes una discusión que se ha creado, en torno a la decisión de la Confederación Mundial de Actividades Subacuáticas (CMAS) referente a la participación de atletas y federaciones afiliados a las CMAS en eventos de otras organizaciones no avaladas por esta Organización.

Para quienes desconocen del tema, las resoluciones publicadas por CMAS a finales de 2005 en su sitio web http://www.cmas.org son las siguientes:

Participación a unas competiciones non CMAS

Si unos atletas, miembros de federaciones afiliadas a la CMAS, participan en eventos organizados por organizaciones no afiliadas, y si las disciplinas practicadas allá son las mismas que las normalmente organizadas por la CMAS, se propone que:

1- la licencia deportiva C.M.A.S. de estos atletas sea anulada hasta el 31 de Diciembre del año civil siguiente,
2- si la participación de estos atletas es asegurada y aprobada por su federación afiliada, una amonestación oficial se enviará a esta federación comunicando de poner fin a la participación de sus atletas en estos eventos.
3- En caso de rechazo y reincidencia la federación quedará excluída
a- de la correspondiente comisión a la primera reincidencia
b- del Comité Deportivo a la segunda reincidencia.

Afiliación a unas organisaciones non CMAS

1- las federaciones que se encuentran en esta situación de doble pertenencia pongan fin a esta doble pertenencia, dentro del 31 de Diciembre de 2006 lo más tarde, decidiendo a cual organización confiar la defensa de sus intereses y decidiendo a la que quieren estar afiliadas.
2- si la federación opta para la afiliación a otra organización o si a falta de contestación en un plazo razonable, esta federación perderá sus derechos adquiridos dentro de la C.M.A.S.


Estas resoluciones tienen diferentes interpretaciones, principalmente relacionadas con la participación de los apneistas en los eventos organizados por la Asociación Internacional para el Desarrollo de la Apnea (AIDA); sin embargo muchas personas relacionadas no solo con ésta, sino con otras actividades y deportes subacuáticos como el rugbysub, pescasub, natación con aletas, han expresado su inconformidad con respecto a estas reglas de CMAS.

En uno de los principales foros de discusión en inglés existen varias opiniones al respecto: http://forums.deeperblue.net/forum12/thread64836.html

Muchos de los planteamientos se centran en la necesidad de los apneistas de crear su propia Federación Internacional o Mundial de Apnea, separada de la CMAS y los demás deportes subacuáticos, ¿creen ustedes que esta sea la vía que deban tomar los deportes subacuáticos? ¿a quien compete la apnea como deporte Organizado? ¿debería cada una de estas actividades: Apnea, Pesca Submarina, Rugby Subacuático, Hockey Subacuático, Natación con Aletas, Fotografía Submarina, tener su propia Federación Independiente?

A lo largo de los años han existido muchos planteamientos y diferencias entre los atletas y directivos de las organizaciones que rigen estas actividades, debido a que al parecer la CMAS no ha sabido llevar una correcta política deportiva con el manejo de estas actividades, siendo la principal organización reconocida a nivel mundial.

El caso de la natación con aletas, deporte olímpico reconocido desde los años 80 y aún no ha sido incluido, ¿debería ser una modalidad que debería ir a la FINA (Federación Internacional de Natación)?

La Pesca Submarina, que es una actividad que ha sido muy criticada por grupos ecológicos, ¿debería ir a la Federación Internacional de Pesca Deportiva? con las otras diferentes modalidades de pesca deportiva

Estos son algunos de los planteamientos que se han escuchado a lo largo de los años, los apneistas opinan que cada deporte subacuático tiene sus características propias y por eso deben ser regulados por diferentes Federaciones Internacionales, sin embargo, existe el caso de deportes y federaciones que manejan numerosas actividades y sin irnos muy lejos, el caso de los Deportes Acuáticos (FINA) que organiza: Natación, Natación Aguas Abiertas, Saltos Ornamentales, Polo Acuático y Nado Sincronizado; que son actividades diferentes, pero complementarias a la vez; lo que que pudiese ser el caso de los deportes subacuáticos, por las características del medio y los equipos que se utilizan, por poner solo dos factores en común. Un apneistas realiza entrenamiento de Natación con Aletas (Monoaleta) para mejorar su técnica, así como un pescador submarino debe manejar técnicas avanzadas de apnea para lograr mayor profundidad, igual pasa con Rugby, Hockey Subacuático, donde se realizan entrenamientos que pueden ser comunes para muchos de estos deportes.

Tal vez la respuesta a todas estos planteamientos e interrogantes se vean con el tiempo, sin embargo, habría que concluir: ¿los deportes subacuáticos tendrán un papel más protagónico en el contexto mundial si se separa cada una de estas modalidades o si se fortalecen y se unifican criterios entre las diversas organizaciones que los manejan y los regulan?

Quisieramos conocer la opinión acerca de estos temas por parte de nuestra comunidad de actividades subacuáticas en español. Así como sus puntos de vista al respecto de esta situación.

Gracias por su atención.

 

[DeepThought]

I think gathering up all national organizations under a different federation isn't impossible. The reason AIDA and FREE never united was due to different rules and the inability (or willingness) to discuss.
With finswimming and WU rugby/hocky the rules are already homogenic for all the organizations under CMAS, so all that is left to do is connecting all national organizations under a new flag. A few votes and a lot of work for those elected might just do it (and ofcourse the redirection of money from CMAS to this new organization).
If there are enough devoted people who see this ideal they can make it happen.
Once all are united under a new organization all that is left is to either join back with the defeated CMAS or approach the IOC independantly. Since sport is made FROM THE PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE IT I think the IOC will act against it's own spirit not to acknowledge this new organization.
Might take a few years but might be worth it.

 

[CarlosC3]

Hi Friends
I´d like to give too much ideas and opinion about this topic, but my english is not enought to explain good. I´m show you my opinion in spanish for now.
Is time to work, work for freediving free of CMAS.
We need to organize, need team work AIDA ,FREE, Athleets.
WE NEED A International Freediving Federation.
See you in the sea...

Hola Amigos del Mar
Mi opinión es la siguiente, es verdad que los deportes que agrupa la CMAS son similares y complementarios entre si en muchos casos, sería muy bueno que pudieran convivir de manera armoniosa y dejando que cada modalidad se desarrolle sin obstruir a las otras.
El caso es que la realidad es otra, y es suficiente con investigar en la historia de la CMAS y la AIDA para saber por que se esta llegando a este punto crítico en la historia de nuestro deporte.

Hay que aclarar algo antes de continuar: desde el punto de vista de un pescador o nadador con aletas, no se justifica mi renuncia a la FVAS y la necesidad de independencia que tenemos los apneistas que competimos en AIDA. ¿Por que esos atletas no se ponen en los zapatos de nosotros?

Carlos Coste no pretende con su actitud debilitar a la CMAS, ni dividir a los atletas subacuáticos, simplemente esta luchando por que se respete el deporte de la APNEA con sus bien establecidas 8 (OCHO) modalidades deportivas.
Que se respete el trabajo de la AIDA, que ha sacado este deporte adelante a pesar de la actitud prohibitiva de la CMAS y retrograda.

Acatar el llamado de la CMAS y sus respectivas Federaciones Nacionales a practicar la apnea dentro de los lineamientos por ellas establecidos, simplemente sería un gran retroceso deportivo, organizativo y un acto de cobardía y traición a los pioneros que fundaron y desarrollaron realmente la apnea contemporanea, o sea la apnea AIDA. En resumen estaría traicionando mi filosofía, la apnea como un todo en las profundidades y en la piscina.

Es cierto que la FVAS contribuyó al desarrollo de la apnea en Venezuela, apoyando a los atletas (incluyendome) para asistir a eventos AIDA, organizando competencias de apnea profunda a pesar de no estar avaladas por CMAS. Pero han estado ocurriendo cosas graves, actitudes irresponsables, irrespeto a los atletas, etc.
Yo me cansé de eso, simplemente ya no estoy para la gracia, de seguirle el juego a ciertas personas que representan esa institución. Por otro lado la FVAS le rinde cuentas a la CMAS, y ya sabemos por donde vienen.

Hay algo que dicen muchos atletas y es que la FVAS es la que tiene el dinero para apoyar, pero, vinimos a hacer apnea o a recibir una beca? Prefieres competir donde estan los peces grandes de mar abierto, o en un acuario?

Imagina una federación especializada unicamente en apnea, tendría poca burocracia, no tendrías que pelear presupuestos con pescadores, nadadores, rugby, etc. Los federativos estarían concentrados en la Apnea y su desarrollo, nada más. Los logros de los deportistas serían retribuidos directamente a los deportistas y su federación, no a otros deportes. Las competencias estarían más organizadas, con total seguridad.

Este es el momento de tomar posición o es chicha o es limonada. Dejamos amarrada la apnea a una organización como la CMAS en la que tiene más peso la política que el deporte, más peso lo que dicen los pescadores que lo apneístas, en donde no entienden ni aceptan que la apnea es para ir a las profundidades...
O trabajamos por nuestra independencia, la apnea de por si, son 8 modalidades, no queremos complicarle la vida más a pescadores y nadadores, necesitamos nuestro propio espacio en armonía, todos en el agua, pero no revueltos.

Esto va a ser un trabajo de años, pero mientras más pronto comencemos mejor.
Desde el fondo...
Carlos Coste

 

[fpernett]

Bienvenido Carlos
Me alegra que escribas en este foro.
Somos muchos los que apoyamos tu decision y creo que las decisiones que tomemos los practicantes de este deporte, son las que decidiran la historia de el.

Forza Carlos

 

[CEngelbrecht]

2-But I don't think that a private organization as Aida will succeed: what if, after aida, other private org's may be set, with different rules again, and others again? The best thing should be changing and modernizing Cmas from inside. Hard, I know...
Respectfully, just my opinion. Please, feel free to tell me how i'm wrong.

I think you might have misunderstood a few details about AIDA and her basics. First of all, AIDA is NOT a private organization like PADI or similar. AIDA do NOT seek to gain a profit from its activities (and to be fair, neither does her rival FREE).

This is really important. Back in 1994, when AIDA was formed by a group of freedivers from France, Germany & Italy, they included the word 'development' in AIDA's name, indicating that they sought to develop competitive freediving, now that CMAS refused to do it. Also, their aim it seems was not necessarily to outcompete CMAS, but to further build up the game if suddenly CMAS changed her mind. Despite a couple of child deceases, AIDA seems have prospered in that job.
AIDA politically was from her start a copy of CMAS and IOC. AIDA's Executive Board is elected by the Assembly, who has two representatives from each national federation, who must operate through good old-fashioned democratic principles towards their members. All of this is how IOC, and CMAS, and FIFA, and what have you, works, as well as AIDA. Again, AIDA is not PADI.

Now, obviously CMAS made the political decision in the late 1980's to run away screaming from these 'Apnea' activities. If CMAS hadn't made that decision, AIDA wouldn't have been formed. To be fair, CMAS faced some huge challenges of risk assessment at the time. Aparently too huge for some people.
Let's not kid ourselves, freediving is a risky business. The tragically stupid death of Audrey Mestre again proved that.
But CMAS should IMHO have compared these risks with the risks of motor racing, road cycling, skiing, etc. etc., hell, even scuba. Jacques Cousteau and his buddies did some silly things in the early days of the automated lung out of ignorance to the risks, and suffered countless cases of DCS. How silly would it not have been for divers today if they had fleed the challenges from back then?

IMHO, CMAS made a wrong decision 15 years ago, and AIDA emerged and prospered out of necessity. CMAS issuing this decree now can only come out of trying to muscle down the rebellion, instead of admitting defeat. So be it, pride is human.
As I see it, CMAS will finally lose out on this one, from a Ghandian* perspective. Screw it, when CMAS is ready, CMAS is ready, and if it has to take generational change of a cast of over-proud leadership, then so be it. Hell, I'll even try not to gloat when it happens and instead try to remind myself of their initial reasons.

If CMAS for some peculiar reason would suddenly change policy radically and inaugurate time, distance and most importantly deep freediving, as AIDA and others has struggled to develop it this last decade ... fine by me. I don't care what name is on the cap, as long as I'm allowed to conduct a magnificent game in a magnificent activity in a magnificent environment. AIDA's own goal is more or less that her existence one day no longer is needed.

Now, I personally really don't like the idea of AIDA starting to conduct finswimming, spearfishing, underwater hockey and rugby, in direct competition with CMAS. I don't see that CMAS has yet lost it completely in these activities, and it actually gives me hope that CMAS leaders on a basic level actually means well and are prone for some kind of constructive dialogue. I'd much rather keep lobbying for CMAS to wake up and face a few errors, than to provoke an attack of sorts. There's enough political idiocracy already in the underwater world of humans, and we should weed that out in stead of piling up more. If it takes gut and tears, so be it.

Another cent: It's not necessarily bad to have a huge heap of sports activities gathered in one body. The IAAF governs countless track & field events every year, and seems to be doing a good job at it. Why not have CMAS govern all underwater sports, as long as she's good at it?


Anyway,
Chris Engelbrecht
Copenhagen


* Ghandian, as in:
First they ignore you,
Then they ridicule you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.
- Mahatma Ghandi

 

[jrgian]

La solita tempesta in un bicchiere d'acqua!
Non so scrivere in Inglese e spero che ci sia qualcuno capace di tradurre.
I concetti che devo esprimere sono complicati per affidarmi ad un traduttore automatico.

Consentitemi di individuare alcuni errori alla base delle vostre discussioni.
Libertà
Storia

LIBERTA'
La stragrande parte di voi non sono freedivers organici alle Federazioni Nazionali ed alla CMAS.
Se ciò è vero, è anche vero che le regole della CMAS NON sono per voi che LIBERAMENTE NON le accettate.
La CMAS non si occupa delle regole nelle quali vi riconoscete, perchè voi ritenete giusto fare il contrario per le regole della CMAS?

Libertà è senza dubbio la possibile scelta che si fa PRIMA di aderire ad una Federazione Nazionale ed Internazionale.
Le regole piacciono?
Si aderisce.
Le regole NON piacciono NON si aderisce!
Che si affermi la CMAS voglia ricoprire il ruolo dell'AIDA è sciocco.
Potrebbe essere esattamente il contrario, non è la CMAS ad invitarvi, la Federazione Internazionale non si rivolge a VOI ma alle Federazioni Nazionali, invitandole a seguire un percorso ritenuto sicuro.
NON vi piace?
Legittimo, non aderite e continuate per la vostra strada, dov'è il probema?
Fra di voi possono esserci persone che vivono la vita delle Federazioni che possono affermare ciò che desiderano attraverso il gioco democratico INTERNO alle Federazioni Nazionali ed Internazionali.
Basta partecipare e fare senza chiacchiere inutili.
Ho letto di cose assurde fatte passare per vere della CMAS di gente che crede di sapere delle cose ma non le sa o peggio ancora mistifica fatti che sono assolutamente falsi.
L'AIDA è forte bella e migliore?
Bene, perchè allora vi preoccupate?
Fate come avete fatto sempre continuando per la vostra strada, la politica della CMAS, state tranquilli, non si rivolge a voi.
Il campo che coltivate è vostro e nessuno intende togliervelo.
Alla CMAS, semplicemente, NON interessa.

STORIA

E' semplicemente ridicolo affermare che la storia dell'apnea sia sovrapponibile a quella dell'AIDA.
L'apnea sportiva è nata nella Federazione Italiana che si riconosce nella CMAS ben prima che uno solo dei fondatori dell'AIDA venisse al mondo.
L'assetto costante ed il variabile regolamentato sono stati scritti dalla FIPSAS, almeno nelle prime stesure.
Era il recordismo storico, quello che pare figlio di puttana ma che ha padri e madri che solo voi fingete di non conoscere.
Questi tentativi di mistificazione sono tanto sciocchi quanto inutili.
Ho già scritto che nessuno intende togliervi nulla.
Se un giorno la CMAS dovesse scegliere di fare il costante sarebbe assolutamente legittimato a farlo e non dovrebbe nulla a nessuno.
Se volesse farlo potrebbe farlo sin da ora.

Il vostro errore, almeno secondo me, è nello stabilire che l'apnea siete voi, solo voi.

L'apnea, secondo la CMAS è tante cose, è l'apnea della velocità, è l'apnea dei giochi, è l'apnea della pesca ed è l'apnea competitiva.
Bene chi vuole entra nelle Federazioni e lavora per lo sviluppo di queste discipline chi non vuole e preferisce l'AIDA entra nell'AIDA e contribuisce allo sviluppo dell'apnea come piace a voi.

Libertà e tolleranza per averle occorre riconoscerle anche agli altri.

Il lavoro peggiore che si possa fare è la confusione.

Serenità!

 

[jrgian]

Scusate ma mi è partito due volte lo stesso post.

 

[jrgian]

La solita tempesta in un bicchiere d'acqua!
Non so scrivere in Inglese e spero che ci sia qualcuno capace di tradurre.
I concetti che devo esprimere sono complicati per affidarmi ad un traduttore automatico.

Consentitemi di individuare alcuni errori alla base delle vostre discussioni.
Libertà
Storia

LIBERTA'
La stragrande parte di voi non sono freedivers organici alle Federazioni Nazionali ed alla CMAS.
Se ciò è vero, è anche vero che le regole della CMAS NON sono per voi che LIBERAMENTE NON le accettate.
La CMAS non si occupa delle regole nelle quali vi riconoscete, perchè voi ritenete giusto fare il contrario per le regole della CMAS?

Libertà è senza dubbio la possibile scelta che si fa PRIMA di aderire ad una Federazione Nazionale ed Internazionale.
Le regole piacciono?
Si aderisce.
Le regole NON piacciono NON si aderisce!
Che si affermi la CMAS voglia ricoprire il ruolo dell'AIDA è sciocco.
Potrebbe essere esattamente il contrario, non è la CMAS ad invitarvi, la Federazione Internazionale non si rivolge a VOI ma alle Federazioni Nazionali, invitandole a seguire un percorso ritenuto sicuro.
NON vi piace?
Legittimo, non aderite e continuate per la vostra strada, dov'è il probema?
Fra di voi possono esserci persone che vivono la vita delle Federazioni che possono affermare ciò che desiderano attraverso il gioco democratico INTERNO alle Federazioni Nazionali ed Internazionali.
Basta partecipare e fare senza chiacchiere inutili.
Ho letto di cose assurde fatte passare per vere della CMAS di gente che crede di sapere delle cose ma non le sa o peggio ancora mistifica fatti che sono assolutamente falsi.
L'AIDA è forte bella e migliore?
Bene, perchè allora vi preoccupate?
Fate come avete fatto sempre continuando per la vostra strada, la politica della CMAS, state tranquilli, non si rivolge a voi.
Il campo che coltivate è vostro e nessuno intende togliervelo.
Alla CMAS, semplicemente, NON interessa.

STORIA

E' semplicemente ridicolo affermare che la storia dell'apnea sia sovrapponibile a quella dell'AIDA.
L'apnea sportiva è nata nella Federazione Italiana che si riconosce nella CMAS ben prima che uno solo dei fondatori dell'AIDA venisse al mondo.
L'assetto costante ed il variabile regolamentato sono stati scritti dalla FIPSAS, almeno nelle prime stesure.
Era il recordismo storico, quello che pare figlio di puttana ma che ha padri e madri che solo voi fingete di non conoscere.
Questi tentativi di mistificazione sono tanto sciocchi quanto inutili.
Ho già scritto che nessuno intende togliervi nulla.
Se un giorno la CMAS dovesse scegliere di fare il costante sarebbe assolutamente legittimato a farlo e non dovrebbe nulla a nessuno.
Se volesse farlo potrebbe farlo sin da ora.

Il vostro errore, almeno secondo me, è nello stabilire che l'apnea siete voi, solo voi.

L'apnea, secondo la CMAS è tante cose, è l'apnea della velocità, è l'apnea dei giochi, è l'apnea della pesca ed è l'apnea competitiva.
Bene chi vuole entra nelle Federazioni e lavora per lo sviluppo di queste discipline chi non vuole e preferisce l'AIDA entra nell'AIDA e contribuisce allo sviluppo dell'apnea come piace a voi.

Libertà e tolleranza per averle occorre riconoscerle anche agli altri.

Il lavoro peggiore che si possa fare è la confusione.
La CMAS non uccide nulla di VOSTRO ma tenta solo di costruire qualcosa possibile per se stessa e le proprie Federazioni nell'assoluta e piena legittimità esattamente come fa l'AIDA.
Prendete esempio dalla CMAS e non occupatevi delle cose altrui.

Serenità!
__________________
Gianfranco Ciavarella

 

[Ted Budion]

I'm not a freediver, an apneist per se, I'm a spearfisher instead. Allow me to shed more light to this discussion.

CMAS killing U/W sports is old news, maybe not for freedivers whose organizing efforts are relatively recent. This prohibition was enacted in 1996, motivated by a Brazilian CMAS vice-president worried about his domestic politics losses. In Brazil, a non-CMAS spearfishing federation http://www.cbcs.com.br was founded in 1990 and all major athletes joined it. They started to be invited to many import tournaments abroad. So what CMAS does? Instead of recognizing them, they tried to ban them. The results is that 99% of competitive spearfishing in Brazil is done by this new body, not to mention with much more enviromental conscience than CMAS' rules

Now that even in freediving their incompentence is showed--I read their first "freediving world champs" were a joke, lest almost a tragedy--, it became very convenient weapon to threat everybody. Yes, not freediving, other UW sports guys are also pissed at them.

The result of this threat, in the spearfishing side, was more cracks on the wall: like AIDA, a new spearfishing-only international federation is being founded by major countries like France and Brazil. It's called FIPSA and it will hold its first World Champioships in Brazil, next March. Now you'll understand the timing of this threat, don't you?

Their major claim is that they're recognized the IOC. This means fundings in some countries through national olympic committes; funds that, as I far as I know, barely trickle down to athlete-divers. Do athlete-divers really need the IOC sanction? The latter, really, couldn't care less for us. It all boils down to greed and personal vanity.

Ok, let me get off the soap box now...

 

[jrgian]

Amico Ted,
il punto è proprio quello che tu hai indicato anche se lo vediamo da diverse angolazioni.
Chi vuole può fare liberamente le sue scelte.
Può scegliere liberamente di aderire all'AIDA o alla FIPSA e condividere le politiche di queste organizzazioni.
L'invito di Coste a spingere gli amici dell'AIDA a seguire l'AIDA lo faccio mio.
Che vadano pure, se pensavano di poter accedere ai soldi delle Federazioni per fare quello che gli pare hanno fatto i conti sbagliati.
Le gare devono pagarsele con i soldi propri e dell'AIDA.
Vale per l'apnea e vale per la pesca in apnea con la FIPSA.
Forza ragazzi andate e fate la VOSTRA strada, nessuno ve lo impedisce ma non guardatevi idietro e siate coerenti con le VOSTRE scelte.
Saluti


ps: la storia non è quella che indichi tu, amico Ted, ma poco importa ciò che vale è la capacità di scelta consapevole. Scegli, per la CMAS non esiste problema!