• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

CO2 compartment hypothesis

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
E

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
489
173
Just a few more results like Alan's, and the 'hypothesis' can be upgraded to a 'theory.'


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
donmoore

donmoore

New Member
Aug 19, 2002
958
154
0
62
There is some really interesting discussion going on here. Eric, thanks for sharing your hypothesis. Alan, thanks for experimenting with it and please keep us informed of further results. Unfortunately I won’t able to contribute with any meaningful data from my own experiences for a while, because I just had rotator cuff surgery, and with such a major body shock I wouldn’t be able to tell what different breathup techniques were doing what. Typing with one hand really sucks too!

One thing I find interesting about the four different blood/body alkaline/acid states, is which one would benefit different freedive disciplines the most. When Eric first presented it he left that alone. Latter he wondered out loud if the alkaline blood / acidity body state would be beneficial. The idea behind this is more oxygen could be loaded into body tissue from the blood during the breath up. O2 likes to travel from high ph (alkaline) to low ph (acidity) places. Temperature and particle pressure changes are the other two major factors affecting O2 binding and releasing points.

But what seems to be good in the breathup stage seems to be opposite during the hold. For instance after the hold begins acidity tissue would draw more O2 out of the circulating system, thus depleting our blood O2 faster. Now it seems to me, anyway, that it would be all right for the brain tissue to draw more O2 out of the blood in the later stages of the hold, because hopefully that would keep us conscious longer, at lower blood O2%, but it wouldn’t be good for the less essential body parts to draw more O2. It appears these other body parts can handle low O2 better. My guess is that the brain and the heart is going to take it’s share O2 from the blood almost without regard to ph, Po, & temperature, but that’s just a guess from a non-medical/scientific person.

Now if my above guess is true than the best ph balance for breath hold would be alkaline blood / acid during breathup, then quickly shifting to acid blood / alkaline body during the hold. This probably isn’t possible so we are left with choosing the state with the greatest benefits and least negatives. Alan choose acid blood / alkaline body and went for the slower draw of O2 from the blood during the hold. I think that's the direction I would experiment first in too.

Keep the good work up guys & gals,
don
 
A

AlanC

New Member
Nov 25, 2003
25
8
0
40
My p.b came after a fairly average patch and the session itself was nothing special so something has had a positive effect on my static apnea. Looking back over the last few weeks, out of laziness, i have been jumping straigt into breath holds with no breath-up before the first hold and using short recoveries. Looking at Eric's theory it seems to me that i wasn't allowing enough time to lower CO2 in the body water and this was resulting in below par times. When i started out i always did 5min prior to and between every breath hold and subsequently made quick improvements and set good times.

That's just a bit more info to help build on the theory but now i have a question for you guys. In the last week i have started a Creatine Monohydrate supplementation cycle for my athletic training. One of the 'side effects' is increased water storage around the muscles. This is a side effect in athletics cos it makes the muscles tight, but how would this additional water effect apnea.

Alan.
 
E

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
489
173
Alan,

Make sure you don't mix your creatine with an acidic drink, otherwise it will degrade into creatinine in less than a minute and do nothing except put a burden on your kidneys/liver.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
A

AlanC

New Member
Nov 25, 2003
25
8
0
40
It's cool, i mix it with water.

Alan.
 
alastair

alastair

Blue Member
Aug 30, 2002
157
33
118
This was my point too Don.

I know nothing about biology, but there seems to be some contradiction in the best breath-hold pH balance (alkali-body, acid blood) and what happens during the last minute 'oxygen loading' hyperventillation phase that Eric described.

This activity will surely blow off CO2 as much as it loads O2 and you're left with a high samba potential. The alternative is to go into the breath-hold with a good pH balance, but low O2 stores.

After the body-water alkalination phase there should be oxygen just about everywhere it can cling to - right? Then you need to bring your blood acidity to the point that it begins to slowly drive oxygen into the bloodstream. There is surely a set of conditions (The Fattah Profile?) under which CO2 is produced at basically the same rate that it is absorbed into the body-water, maintaining the pH at the perfect point. No contractions and no blackout.

So my question was and is, can these magic conditions be achieved, or must we always compromise?

I suppose there are 2 possibilities :

1. To find a technique for increasing the blood-water CO2 without reducing oxygen stored in the muscles or venous blood

2. To find a technique for re-storing oxygen after the final CO2 cycle without blowing off the CO2 aqain.

Am I making sense?

My uneducated and ill-informed guess is that technique 1 is more likely. Perhaps it would be possible to do it in the following way :

a. Put a rubber band around your left wrist, blocking the flow of blood (and oxygen) to your hand

b. Breathe deeply for some minutes in order to blow off all CO2 in the body-water and increase the O2 stores.

c. Meanwhile, pump your hand like crazy. This will create a lot of local CO2 and lactic acid without using your O2 stores in the rest of the body.

d. You now have alkaline body-water, alkaline blood-water and high O2 stores. You also have a hand full of acid.

e. This is the cool part... while packing for the breath-hold, take off the rubber band. The acid will course around your body, decreasing the pH of the blood-water and setting up the 'Fattah Profile' and initiating the 9 minute static!!!

OK, I'm sure this can't work, but one of you biology-types must surely be able to find a way. How about injecting lemon-juice directly into the blood-stream (the Alastair Plunge Technique).

Al

P.S. the lemon juice was a joke...
 
tylerz

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
114
133
Lots to think about here but I saw one thing I can offer so far regarding the blood circulation times brought up by Ben and Don. I have a reference that states the average volume of blood in a person is around 5 litres. The full volume of blood is circulated in 1min for an average person. This is based on the avg info of:

5 litre blood volume
Blood circulation 70ml/heartbeat
4.9 litre/min
70beats/min
 
donmoore

donmoore

New Member
Aug 19, 2002
958
154
0
62
Lemon juice

Al,
I think the acidity blood is crucial. It’s the key to getting as much O2 in the blood as possible. More O2 in the blood will have more of a positive (direct) effect on long statics than any O2 loading of body tissue. In a normal breath we are only drawing out fraction of the available O2 from the air in our lungs. The reason why is because we easily reach our blood saturation max. Raising the saturation max point, I believe, would have the most direct effect.

I might be crazy, but lemon juice, if I were capable of performing breathholds right now with little other changes, would be one of the first things I would try. Not injecting it -- besides that being crazy --, but drinking it right before the final breathhold. Remember blood acidity is what we (well at least me) want. We want a delayed alkaline reaction into the blood stream. How long from drinking it to, to it raising blood pH? Probably at least 5 or more minutes, which means you, could have acidity blood at the best time. In the meanwhile the lemon juice should have a direct effect on the alkalinity of the mouth, throat, stomach and kidneys and maybe decrease their blood O2 draw and maybe allow better CO2 absorption and blood off loading.

Lemon juice is not a band substance, which means it would perfectly legal and practical to have some in your water bottle. It may not work, buts it’s just to easy and practical not to test.

I have O2 blood %’s and hr measurements at different time points for about my last 50 dry statics. If I didn’t just have surgery I would be able to quickly determine if lemon juice or any of The Fattah Profiles worked for me. Somebody, please give it a try a report back.
don
 
tylerz

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
114
133
Don,

Hahah I was expecting this to come up about lemons. My mind was prepared once I saw someone mention grapefruits! Aniko is always telling me how I must have lemon juice to lower the acidity (increase alkalinity) of my body. I trusted her on this so now that it comes up towards diving, I have finally looked into it myself.

Here are the details I found:

From a Reams practitioner on lemon:

>Lemons are the only food which are purely anionic. The catch is that
this
is only true of fresh lemons.

>After about 30 minutes of exposure to air (oxygen), lemon juice becomes
>cationic. The confusion comes when one thinks in terms of acid and
>alkaline. Lemon juice would always be thought of as acid, but, while
>fresh, is anionic (which corresponds to alkaline). If you had an acid
>urine pH and you used Dr. Reams' lemon/water drink as he suggested,
>your pH would become more alkaline. This seems illogical when you think
>of lemon juice as acidic. But it's not, its anionic. In addition to
>fresh lemon juice, the only other thing that is purely anionic is pure
>calcium.

Now, although body alkalinity is preferred over body acidity for health reasons (supposedly very important since most health problems occur in an acidic state), if you are determined to increase statics this way, then lemon juice is not your friend! ;)

That being said I do not quite follow how the breakdown of lemons does not produce acid that is absorbed by the body. The lemon is broken down into water, carbon dioxide, and an inorganic compound (alkaline). But if CO2 (acidic) is being seperated then do we not absorb that as well? Or maybe it is such a small amount of the absorbed nutritional value?

Cheers
 
Last edited:
E

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
489
173
Citrus fruits all contain citric acid. When you drink citric acid, your digestive system neutralizes the acid and converts it into citrate, which is then fed into your blood. Citrate is a krebs intermediate (involved in energy production), but it is also a precursor to bicarbonate (the primary buffer in the blood).

Thus, drinking citric acid makes you more alkaline. I always drink citric acid (i.e. from either lemon juice, or pure citric acid), a few hours before max apnea attempts. Actually, you can also use sodium citrate, potassium citrate, calcium citrate, magnesium citrate, etc.., but taking too much of any of those can cause electrolyte imbalances, and also have a laxative effect.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
tylerz

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
114
133
Well I suppose I should say lemon juice is not your friend towards becomming acidic! If I understand correcly Eric, you are saying by taking the lemon juice your body will generate buffers more readily, which then can cancel out the acidity of the blood!?

Now does that not go against what you have proposed with the alkaline body water/acidic blood?

So I guess I should ask, under the idea you presented, how do you imagine increases/decreases in your body's buffers effect the equation?

Cheers
 
  • Like
Reactions: donmoore
E

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
489
173
The simplest way to think of buffers is to imagine two scenarios:

1. 50L of body water without buffers
2. 50L of body water with lots of buffers

First of all, before we even start, fluid #2 would have a higher pH (be more alkaline).

Now, suppose in each case we 'inject' a fixed amount of CO2 into both of those fluid volumes (1 & 2). The fluid in case #2 then would be only slightly acidic, while the fluid in case #1 would be very acidic.

So, buffers generally have a dampening effect on changes of acidity; they cause the fluid to accept acidic agents, but they cause a resistance to the change in pH.

Thus, an athlete with high buffers (either caused by CO2 tables or by drinking lemon juice), can have a lot of CO2 in his system with only a slight increase in acidity... so, his contractions are delayed versus a person with lower levels of buffers.

Buffers in the blood include:
- Bicarbonate (primary buffer)
- Phosphate, Sulphate, etc...

Citrate is a precursor to bicarbonate.
Hemoglobin only 'buffers' CO2, whereas the above three will buffer all acids including lactic acid etc...


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
Bill

Bill

Baron of Breathold
Oct 17, 2001
1,805
332
188
83
Eric
I've been waiting for a good opportunity and picked today. The plan was to try your new static prep but, stay close to what I have been doing. Started as usual;

Four stage lung stretch up to max pack
Six relax negative statics, one breath and 10 to 60 second hold
Two minutes slow ventilations (80%)/Two static
Three min. slow vent/three static
Four min. slow vent/Five minute static (light contractions before three)
Four min. slow vent
change of routine here!!!
for my record;
twenty exhale only vents in 15 seconds, two 95% vents, 10 packs and go
today;
one more min. vent
two min. static
one min. recovery and hyperventillate, fifteen packs and go

This was dry today. I had a good buzz for over a minute which was normal back when I used hyperventillation. Mild contractions started at 3:20 and by 4:30 had become as bad as ever. The 'gut it out mode' started about 5:00 (normal) and slid by very fast. The whole static it seemed that the watch was ticking faster than normal. I sat up about 6:00 and felt better than normal as it came up on 7:00. The veil came down fast just after that and I had a big samba.
This was my first try at your new method and I don't think I did it quite right but the time was almost as good as my last and would have felt great if the target was seven or less.
What do you think?
Aloha
Bill
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Pezman
B

bruno

New Member
Sep 15, 2001
63
12
0
59
Yesterday evening I tried :
breath up 15 min long and slow ventilation
first static empty lungs 2'50" with 5 contratction (never got there before)
5 minutes of long slow ventilation
second static : 5'15" contraction started at +/- 5' (normally at 3')
rest and +/- 5 minutes ventilation +1' hyperventilation (fast) gave me 5:30 with small samba - my buddy didn't see it, but I felt one (had no contractions, I stopped for fading vision)
5' ventilation + 1' breathold till fingers stopped tingeling,
third apnea of 5:42 (5:45 is PB) 30 sec of " nice" contractions, at the edge of samba

my conclusion so far : this kind of ventilation delays contraction very well, I still need some experimenting to know how far I can go in this ventilation without hypocapnia (blood), and certainly, with this breath up I'll have less "bad days"

bruno
 
donmoore

donmoore

New Member
Aug 19, 2002
958
154
0
62
correction

I think the acidity blood is crucial. It’s the key to getting as much O2 in the blood as possible. More O2 in the blood will have more of a positive (direct) effect on long statics than any O2 loading of body tissue. In a normal breath we are only drawing out fraction of the available O2 from the air in our lungs. The reason why is because we easily reach our blood saturation max. Raising the saturation max point, I believe, would have the most direct effect.
I made these statements earlier, but after some more study, I have discovered how wrong I was. When I originally studied my wife’s Human Anatomy & Physiology textbook I read how steep the saturation curve rises with changes in PO2 (Oxygen Particle pressure) and how a change in ph shifts the whole curve to the left or right. What I failed to see and understand is the curve rises steeply at low PO2. Normal alveolar pressure is 100 mm Hg. At this rate hemoglobin saturation is already 97.5%. From this point the curve rises very slowly to where it takes a PO2 of 250 mm Hg before it finally reaches 100% saturation.

Each hemoglobin can bind 4 molecules of O2. 97.5% saturation means that 75% of the hemoglobin molecules are already carrying their maximum amount of 4 molecules of O2, and the other 25% are already carrying 75% (3 molecules) of their maximum O2 carrying capabilities. The saturation curve is so flat toward the top that shifting it to the right by purposely acidifying the blood would have a negligible effect.

As blood makes its way through the arteries to tissue, the PO2 drops rapidly which puts the saturation curve in the steep part. Here a shift of the curve to left or right due to change in blood ph would have a much larger effect on how much O2 is released.

So to summarize, increasing the saturation of blood through acidity or temperature in the breathup to have longer breathholds, just isn’t going to do much, because their isn’t much room for improvement. Now this doesn’t say that the idea of oxygenating our body tissue is not valid. I don’t know have an opinion about that one yet. What this does seem to say though is that changing ph of tissue could have a much larger effect by decreasing the O2 drain during the hold. So in other words, instead of trying to get more O2 in, I think we should focus on trying to slow the amount going out.

That’s my current understanding. I hope I didn’t lead anyone astray with my comments.
don
 
alastair

alastair

Blue Member
Aug 30, 2002
157
33
118
So in other words, instead of trying to get more O2 in, I think we should focus on trying to slow the amount going out.

From what I understand (and I don't even have a book to read!), oxygen leaves the tissues when we consume what is in the blood (actually I don't know chicken-and-egg relationship between bood O2 consumption, blood-water CO2 production and O2 leaving the tissues). Anyway, the most effective way of slowing this down is probably to relax more. I think the most important thing is to avoid slowing it too much (by starting with low blood-water CO2) which makes us prone to samba.

Having low body-water CO2 (or high buffers from lemon juice consumption!) keeps the blood-water CO2 from rising too high (by giving it somewhere to go) and avoids nasty contractions.

I keep trying to ask this question and nobody answers. Please let me know if I'm chuntering on widly in the wrong direction, if I'm on track but I'm asking a difficult question, or if I've offended someone... but I suppose the ideal is to have low blood-water CO2 (long deep breaths), not too low blood CO2 (short statics) and decent O2 in the tissues. From my understanding, getting this high O2 is only possible through hyperventillation (or maybe drinkning bleach...) and I suppose this must effect the CO2 in the blood-water.

Must we therefore choose between High-O2, Low-Blood-Water-CO2, Low-Body-Water-CO2 (which feels good but we samba) or Low-O2, OK-Blood-Water-CO2, Low-Body-Water-CO2 (which is a low-contraction profile, but lacks precious oxygen)?

Or is there a technique that can be used to get all 3 factors positioned correctly?

Ciao

Al
 
E

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
489
173
Don,

Remember that while your arterial blood may be 98% saturated with O2, your venous blood (returning to the heart after a round-trip around the body) is probably only 60% saturated. By hyperventilating, your arterial blood stays at 98% but your venous blood can get up to 80% saturated or even more. This is where the extra O2 storage comes in -- Peter Lindholm did a nice analysis of this effect in his thesis. There would be no room for improvement once your venous blood is also 98% saturated. The slower you consume O2, the less O2 your blood offloads during a round trip. In the state where your body was consuming almost no O2, the 'drained' venous blood may be 96 or 97% saturated upon return to the heart. So, decreased metabolic rate actually increases the amount of stored oxygen in the blood as well.


Eric Fattah
BC,Canada
 
donmoore

donmoore

New Member
Aug 19, 2002
958
154
0
62
Eric,
I am so glad you brought this up. Where could I read Peter Lindholm analysis? I have read some of his work, but I could not find the one where he says hyperventilation raises “venous blood 02”. I assume venous blood is roughly 50% of total blood, so a 20% point increase in O2 there could be large.

The problem I have with this is its contradictory to my own experience and what Kirk and Martin taught me. With my own O2 tests I found that the more hyperventilation I did the more comfortable I was (less contractions), but the quicker my O2 dropped. This was accomplished with doing hyperventilation followed by slow breaths to regain composure, with 3 to 4 purges (more hyperventilation) right before mild packing. I did this for several weeks, before I finally determined I would never reach the same O2 as I was achieving earlier. The idea was to lower the pain from CO2, which was accomplished, but at the sacrifice of shorter times. All my best O2% at 4:00 minutes have been with little hyperventilation and a high amount of pain. It seems the more pain at the 4:00 mark, the better the O2.

I decided to go the other direction and reduce hyperventilation to none. One dry static I even eliminated the whole breathup and the warm-up holds. Just took one large breath, packed 5 times, and went. The pain was outrageous, but some interesting things happened. At 1:00 minute my heart rate was 51 bpm, at 2:00 minutes it reached an all-time low of 38 bpm, and at 3:00 it was 39 bpm. I have been down to 39 bpm about 6 times, but that was always around 4:00 and it slowly rises after that. The 2 and 3-minute marks were about 30 beats below average and 19 and 14 beats below the lowest I have ever recorded for those times. After that it rose to the lower 40’s.

My O2 was consistently the 2nd highest for the whole time of the hold that lasted until 4:30, which was the point I just couldn’t take the pain anymore. I have tried the no breathup technique since then. My results have been I can only get the super low hr and high O2 on the very first hold, but being able to handle the pain on most days, is currently not within my ability. I was a little crazy that day. After the first hold, my hr shoots up and my O2 drops.

The Performance Freediving Student Manual says, “Hyperventilation …. This does not store extra oxygen. On the contrary, if practiced too vigorously, it will actually rob the body of oxygen”. Martin told me that in preparing for his static world record, he cut the number of purges he did down and got better results. I think he only did 2 or 3, but I could be wrong. I have even been entertaining the thought that hypercapnia (CO2 increase) might actually cause some O2 conserving changes.

What are your experiences with your fire-breathing actually increasing your O2 levels at different intervals in your statics? Although I think its wonderful for someone to break their personal bp, I can’t help wondering if any new method that included more hyperventilation, caused them to hold their breath longer by lowering the pain from CO2 and not increasing their O2. Unless the person used an oximeter or held their breath to black out with both techniques, I don’t think we can draw any conclusion about their O2 levels being more or less.

My experiences with lots of hyperventilation go hand in hand with Pezman’s statement of “hitting the wall” and with Bill’s last post of feeling good, but then having an unexpected Samba. Not the hypocapnia concern at the beginning, but plain old low O2 at the end. But maybe this is from doing the hyperventilation wrong.
Look forward to your insights,
don
 
J

Johnny Arizona

New Member
Feb 9, 2004
11
2
0
78
What is packing. I'm new to the "science" of static apnea although I've been holding my breath for minutes at a time since I was in my teens.

My best time is around 5'40". I got that by breathing deeply, not fast not slow for three hundred breaths or so. I didn't time it.

I'm intrigued by the breathe for so long then hold your breath for two minutes, then breathe for so many minutes and go for x number of minutes.

I seem to go thru stages. 2.5 min. the maybe 3' 15" or so then 3' 45" then 4 something etc.

I need to find a way to get up there faster. All those stages tend to get pretty boring.

I'd appreciate any "non techinical" help you can give me.

Thanks.
 
E

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
489
173
Don,

Using my oximeters I also have found that I if I only take a few breaths, then hold, I have much higher O2 readings in the later stages, compared to hyperventilating. However, as Lindholm described, I'm sure that hyperventilating does store more O2 by various means. However, CO2 is a strong modulator of metabolism. High CO2 stimulates the vagus nerve, which slows your heart & metabolism. This effect causes O2 to be conserved so well, that you end up with higher O2 at the end, even with lower O2 to start off with, when doing high CO2 breath-holds.

Hyperventilating not only lowers CO2, but also increases your heart rate, and takes up a lot of energy; you can even end up with lactic acid in your breathing muscles from the huge effort. So, if you don't hypeventilate in an efficient way, you will start the breath-hold with more O2 stored, but you will have:
- Lactic acid (Oxygen debt) in your breathing muscles, which will quickly drain O2 from your stores
- Low CO2 levels, preventing the vagal stimulation which would normally conserve O2
- Higher heart rate & metabolic rate in general, from the vigorous exercise during the hyperventilation
- Decreased bohr effect from excessive alkalinity, preventing O2 release in the later stages of the breath-hold

For these reasons, the ideal static would be to do virtually no breathe-up, then simply resist the 1st contraction until the end of the breath-hold.

However, given that most people can't do that (except yogis), we are forced to find methods which allow us to push ourselves closer to the limit. In so doing, we have lower O2 levels in the later stages, but we can actually push to a B/O or close to it.

Many of the negative effects listed above can be overcome by a 40 to 60 second static apnea right after the hyperventilation, and right before the max hold. This is somewhat in line with the body water hypothesis; and I've had great results with that lately -- i.e. the 40 to 60 second hold after the hyperventilation, but before the max breath-hold.

I have lindholm's thesis in hardcopy; you can get it from him in PDF format if you e-mail him. I might still have it buried in PDF format on some hard drive, somewhere.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada
 
DeeperBlue.com - The Worlds Largest Community Dedicated To Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing

ABOUT US

ISSN 1469-865X | Copyright © 1996 - 2022 deeperblue.net limited.

DeeperBlue.com is the World's Largest Community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving, Spearfishing and Diving Travel.

We've been dedicated to bringing you the freshest news, features and discussions from around the underwater world since 1996.

ADVERT