Co2 Tables.

[Andrew.]

Is there a good resource, or post somewhere that I can read up on an effective beginners Co2 / o2 table?

 

[sanso]

Well, there's always our little write-up on CO₂ tables that will help you to decide what you want from them.

Here it goes: https://wefreedive.com/resources/training/2-the-evolution-of-co2-training-tables

 

[Andrew.]

Thank you Sanso,

That was exactly what I was looking for and so much more as well.

 

[J Campbell]

I believe in "one-breath" CO2 tables.
Here is a link to some stuff on that:

https://forums.deeperblue.com/threa...m-in-between-breath-holds.104204/#post-950207

 

[Andrew.]

Well, there's always our little write-up on CO₂ tables that will help you to decide what you want from them.

Here it goes: https://wefreedive.com/resources/training/2-the-evolution-of-co2-training-tables

Have been playing around with these different ideas since you showed me the article.. can finally get through a set of 8 after playing with the repetitions a bit , and the times.. my c02 table now is as follows.. one breath - 12 contractions - 8 repetitions.

I have never felt so much c02 in my life, my body is having some strange reactions to the table.. I am sweating profusely when I do it and I feel a little dizzy afterwards.

Interestingly, as the contractions come sooner after each breath they become easier to manage, I find each time that the last repetition is the easiest to get through.

Thank you! Hopefully I will see some results when I get back in the water next year.

 

[sanso]

keep us posted on the results!

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[3joern]

Hi, I hate the tables so I train since one year with the pranayama apps like apnea trainer (10s breath in, 40s hold, 20s exhale for 20 min). After I see your one breath advice I change to the custom option in the app to 9s breath in, 60s hold, 18s exhale aaaannnnnd 9s hold (for 15 min). This rocks and I will test it for a longer time and the effort in pool training, thanks

 

[Jo_duiker]

I kind of hate tables too, but you really should try the tables mr. Wonka posted on his site (be it maybe altered to your abilities). I recently did a table of 8 holds with one breath between them and the holds had 40 seconds of contractions in them. Whew! The problem is: I don't know whether I was lucky to be able to do it - will I be able to repeat this? Don't know for sure. I'm coming rom 30 seconds of contractions in each hold, so I have a long way before I can do 60 seconds of contractions. I'll be crying long before I can do the"Whitcher" table, I guess. It's good training, but it does seem a bit like a certain amount of self torture. Well, at least you can never say it gets really comfortable.

 

[sanso]

the goal of co2 tables is to make your peace with high co2 levels.

as long as you tell yourself that you "hate" it and think of it as"torture", you're not even giving yourself a chance to find out that there's actually noting wrong with having contractions.

It is a self-fulfilling prophesy: Fighting contractions is unpleasant and a "struggle" is by definition not a comfortable state, so fighting your contractions in fact is what _makes_ them uncomfortable.

contractions themselves - if you choose not to fight them - are no worse than a hiccup

Richard Wonka
wefreedive.com -- richardwonka.com -- fb.com/TheRichardWonka

 

[Jo_duiker]

Thanks for your reply, mr. Wonka!

as long as you tell yourself that you "hate" it and think of it as"torture", you're not even giving yourself a chance to find out that there's actually noting wrong with having contractions.

Quite right! I admit "torture" is too strong of an expression to describe how I feel about contractions at the point where I am at now. I know enough about contractions to realize they're actually rather a good sign than a bad one. I used to think otherwise, but with training (dry, due to circumstances) that changed.

That's why I didn't say I "plainly" hate CO2 tables. I said I "kind of" hate CO2 tables. Indeed, I AM coming from "I HATE it!" But now I'm at a point where - for now only sometimes! - the first few (4-6 or so) contractions in static even feel (both pysically as well as mentally) like refreshing breaths, if that even makes sense to you. Hope it does. There are times I'm struggling to NOT hate it, I admit, but there are other times I really appreciate the training. One problem of mine is: I'm alone (no club, no buddy), doing only dry training (safety first), and so motivation is not fed by fellow freedivers and so... That's tough, I have to say.

It is a self-fulfilling prophesy: Fighting contractions is unpleasant and a "struggle" is by definition not a comfortable state, so fighting your contractions in fact is what _makes_ them uncomfortable.

The mind is powerful indeed as I experienced only last week, doing a PB of 4:40 in a dry static on my bed.
When I said it never gets really get comfortable, I meant comfortable as in "wow, this 3* Michelin diner tastes to good, I want to experience this every single second, starting now until forever!"

However true that may be, I do realize that thinking it will never really get comfortable is a negative mind setting and very much NOT preferrable. Maybe it's more positive to start by the thought that it gets less uncomfortable with the right focus, mind, training, etc. ?

As for "fighting" contractions: I really try not to. I relax: my mind, my body, my muscles. I let the contractions come and go like waves, I don't tense up my muscles (belly, stomach, etc.). I pay attention to every part (shoulders and neck are classic). Even my jaw and tongue. Of course, that's physically - and I realize I'm not there yet. Mentally I still have LOTS of work to do. In my 4:40 dry static, contractions began at 2:45, so I AM proud I did almost 2:00 of contractions. But I admit that nearing the end I really thought: "man, this is freaking uncomfortable!" Of course you can not hold your breath forever with a smile, but still... My recovery was quite fast and very clean and strong: I got my breath back after 10 seconds already, making me think I could have gone longer.

the goal of co2 tables is to make your peace with high co2 levels.

contractions themselves - if you choose not to fight them - are no worse than a hiccup

I tend to misinterpret things rather easily, so I must ask: you aren't saying that enduring contractions is as easy (and fast) as flipping a switch, are you? I think not, otherwise, why would we have to do CO2 tables, right?

 

[Frenzyfinder]

I find I get more contractions when doing static holds than doing dynamic holds (elliptical machine). During my dynamic holds, around 60s on elliptical, I have more of an inhale reflex than contractions. I guess you could call it s contraction though.. While during static I will get the classic stomach contraction


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[sanso]

Thanks for your reply, mr. Wonka!
...

I tend to misinterpret things rather easily, so I must ask: you aren't saying that enduring contractions is as easy (and fast) as flipping a switch, are you? I think not, otherwise, why would we have to do CO2 tables, right?

i have found that after significant training, CO2 was a perfectly neutral item during my statics. i didn't care if they were there not (still don't). i used them as a gauge when it was useful and other than that they had no impact my state (peace?) of mind.

I'd wager that this is how little the significant players of the static game feel about them, too.

That means there is nothing to "endure", only the question if i understand my situation well enough to stay in the water.

CO2 tables are only needed to get over ourselves freaking out at something we don't understand yet, once that is done, there is no need for them any more.



Richard Wonka
wefreedive.com -- richardwonka.com -- fb.com/TheRichardWonka

 

[Frenzyfinder]

i have found that after significant training, CO2 was a perfectly neutral item during my statics.....

.....CO2 tables are only needed to get over ourselves freaking out at something we don't understand yet, once that is done, there is no need for them any more.



Richard Wonka
wefreedive.com -- richardwonka.com -- fb.com/TheRichardWonka

Static tables got me from sitting on a couch and pulling a 60s hold playing video games to making that same hold while on a elliptical machine.

I would say eventually static tables are out of the loop unless you're trying sport free diving. However I do enjoy keeping track of progress with dynamic tables with forms of movement in and out of water.

To each his own, or her.. Every form of training works well in some differing ways.

I get what you say when statics you have always only be in neutral levels of CO2. if your legs don't feel a burn towards the end of the breath hold table then it's probably not helping with whatever your trying to accomplish. I.e. Sport free diving and open water spearing 0.02


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[sanso]

... I would say eventually static tables are out of the loop unless you're trying sport free diving. However I do enjoy keeping track of progress with dynamic tables with forms of movement in and out of water.

This has little to do with the tables being static or dynamic. I have been training freediving for a little now and am conveying (part of) my experience from that training.

... I get what you say when statics you have always only be in neutral levels of CO2.

Hmmm, apparently not. Let me try to clarify.
I am in no way saying that my CO₂ levels are neutral when I perform a CO₂ table, that would not be a CO₂ table then. (Have you read my little blurb on them?)
The result of many, many of those tables was that my state of mind during those tables was neutral. Whether I had contractions or not had no effect on my relaxation or motivation. Massive amounts of CO are perfectly fine and the only significant effect (apart from a strong dive response) is a somewhat unpleasant headache.

if your legs don't feel a burn towards the end of the breath hold table then it's probably not helping with whatever your trying to accomplish. I.e. Sport free diving and open water spearing 0.02

You may want to find a good instructor near you and go through your understanding of CO₂, dive response, aerobic and anaerobic energy cycles and the related topics. - These are (or should ) be covered in any decent advanced freediving course, for example.

 

[Jo_duiker]

This has little to do with the tables being static or dynamic. I have been training freediving for a little now and am conveying (part of) my experience from that training.

As you probably read here before (more than once by now), contractions in dynamic apnea with fins are way(!) harder for me than they are in static. So much harder that whereas I'm starting to disregard them in static, in dynamic, I still totally hate them (and dyn CO2 tables as well! Even apnea walking.) For now at least, contractions in DYN really feel different than they do in static (physically, really): on every attempt where I managed my (lousy) PB of 50m, contractions started very early (after 25-30 m already), and they are very hard and frequent from the start. This makes me give up at 50m, every single time, not even being able to even only turn and push away from the edge.

This keeps me from really wanting to train dynamic apnea. I must admit that my fitness level is really nowhere. I recently got an app on my smartphone with a "7 minute work out" (You know, 1 min. jumping jacks, 1 min. plank, 1 min. push ups, 1 min. squats, etc. up until 7 minutes) and I barely made it. I did it once and since then: I haven't done it. My heart was pounding as if it would jump out of my chest. And it does so as well, after even only one 25 m lap underwater.
That's why I DO hate dynamic CO2 tables and my "best table" (the one I can actually do) is 8-10 laps of 25m with a HUGE amount of time between laps, which is ONE full mintue. And whenever I do this table (which isn't very often), I do it very reluctantly, even if I know I can do it.

There is a HUGE difference for me between static and dynamic...
:-/

 

[sanso]

... way(!) harder for me than they are in static ... still totally hate them ..., contractions in DYN really feel different ... (physically, really) ... PB of 50m, ... very hard and frequent from the start. This makes me give up at 50m, every single time, not even being able to even only turn and push away from the edge.

You create that difference yourself with how you react to them. (See self-fulfilling prophecy). Contractions in themselves are a harmless tick. Fighting contractions, however, feels terrible indeed and is very unpleasant. I have seen this effect quite literally hundreds of times in those of my students who had not yet realised this fact. And I have also see their reaction to and experience of contractions in DYN change to be perfectly harmless, even positive. What made the difference for those who succeeded was a change in their understanding of what was happening and a change in how they chose to react to that.

This keeps me from really wanting to train dynamic apnea. ... [workout] ... I haven't done it.... DO hate dynamic CO2 tables and my "best table" (the one I can actually do) is 8-10 laps of 25m with a HUGE amount of time between laps, which is ONE full mintue. And whenever I do this table (which isn't very often), I do it very reluctantly, even if I know I can do it.

There is a HUGE difference for me between static and dynamic...
:-/

As soon as you want to succeed more than you want to avoid an experience you don't like (admitting that something you thought you understood is more complex than you like) you will train.

BUT. I would highly recommend leaving the water for now and focusing on the classroom learning. Your problem is not CO₂, nor the difference between STA and DYN. You are missing the links between a number of points of knowledge that make the difference between remembering said items and understanding them.

In order to start learning, you will have to begin to question your current understanding of the topic. This admission is unpleasant for the ego. The ego doesn't like to hear that it's not fully in control and doesn't know things already.

You are currently insisting that it's different for you. It's not. This has nothing to do with your case being special. We are all as special as everybody else ;-)

I encourage you to re-read your posts and recognise all the hate you are putting forwards towards your training. That mindset will limit you in freediving.

That, by the way, no forum and no one else can do this for you, but a good instructor can ask you the right questions to help you understand and adapt the decisions you make.

 

[Jo_duiker]

You create that difference yourself with how you react to them. (See self-fulfilling prophecy). Contractions in themselves are a harmless tick. Fighting contractions, however, feels terrible indeed and is very unpleasant. I have seen this effect quite literally hundreds of times in those of my students who had not yet realised this fact. And I have also see their reaction to and experience of contractions in DYN change to be perfectly harmless, even positive. What made the difference for those who succeeded was a change in their understanding of what was happening and a change in how they chose to react to that.

As soon as you want to succeed more than you want to avoid an experience you don't like (admitting that something you thought you understood is more complex than you like) you will train.

BUT. I would highly recommend leaving the water for now and focusing on the classroom learning. Your problem is not CO₂, nor the difference between STA and DYN. You are missing the links between a number of points of knowledge that make the difference between remembering said items and understanding them.

In order to start learning, you will have to begin to question your current understanding of the topic. This admission is unpleasant for the ego. The ego doesn't like to hear that it's not fully in control and doesn't know things already.

You are currently insisting that it's different for you. It's not. This has nothing to do with your case being special. We are all as special as everybody else ;-)

I encourage you to re-read your posts and recognise all the hate you are putting forwards towards your training. That mindset will limit you in freediving.

That, by the way, no forum and no one else can do for you, but a good instructor can and will ask you the right questions to help you understand and adapt the decisions you make.

Thanks so much for replying, you are spot on. Another factor in me making myself hate training dynamic apnea is the very low frequency I can go to a pool: once a month when lucky. It's silly, but I mistakenly thought I could advance just as easy as someone going to the pool 2-3 times a week by training harder, trying to do more, demanding more of myself. Doing this, I exhausted myself, failed in tables which I set too hard for myself, etc. ... This led to more frustration of course.

So, I'll take your advice and leave the water as it won't be so hard to do: I'm not in it very often anyway.

I do have to thank you for your saying that "contractions, when you don't fight them, are nothing more than hiccups": in static, this is helping me tremendously! This is going against your advice about leaving the water, but maybe I should test some dynamic contractions in the pool, without really pushing myself, but still have enough of contractions to be able to analyze what it is I'm doing specifically (both physically as well as mentally) when I "fight" them in DYN in order to know what I should do differently, or even stop doing alltogether. (Of course, now I'm overlooking the highly probable possiblity that I'm also "anticipating contractions", which makes them come earlier than they would if I wouldn't be "waiting for"/expecting them.)
I'll see. I'll take it easy for now. I must say this IS confronting my ego indeed!

You are a tremendous help!

 

[sanso]

[emoji4] Glad to help.

i know the feeling very well when can i feel the first contraction coming on and i just want to give it a little nudge to get it over with.
[emoji1]

it seems that you have found a good way of thinking about this.

Trying _harder_ breaks things in freediving. Trying _softer_ tends to feel much better and leaves space for training success.

With that mind set, you'll be fine, as long as you _absolutely always_ have a buddy with you whenever you touch water.

Richard Wonka
wefreedive.com -- richardwonka.com -- fb.com/TheRichardWonka

 

[bboynaki]

Is there such thing as a Wonka O2 table? O2 tables seem to take a lot of time and what we care about is obtaining a hypoxic state while minimizing CO2 effects, right? Would that table just be an exhale O2 table?

 

[sanso]

Is there such thing as a Wonka O2 table? O2 tables seem to take a lot of time and what we care about is obtaining a hypoxic state while minimizing CO2 effects, right? Would that table just be an exhale O2 table?

Exactly! Glad to see the principle applied! Let us know how it goes!