Competitor Decline

[Nikkey]

I didn't know it was possible to look back on the other comps on CAFA's website, pretty interesting.
Are there any spearfishing comps in Canada?
Personally I don't see myself spearfishing anytime soon, the last time I killed a fish I was 7 and cried for two days lol..But I definately see why spearfishing competitions would feel more even and rewarding.

 

[naiad]

I agree about the 'one-shot' rule. That is one factor that makes me less likely to compete - I am not going to go abroad or put a lot of time, money or effort into a competition, when a simple mistake, not necessarily my own, could spoil my performance.

 

[Jon]

There was plenty of talk about this at last weekend's Freedive-A-Palooza.

We had over 30 freedivers, and their families, show up to camp and dive all weekend long. Everyone seemed to have a great time and many are planning on coming back next year- even if it means flying.

Contrast that to what some people said about the last few comps they attended in California, Vancouver, and Hawaii where they were lucky to get even 5-6 athletes to show up and I'm now convinced that these "diving jamborees" are the way to go when it comes to growing the sport.

Having a group of 50+ people show up every year, and it's still growing, compared to a group of maybe 6 showing up to compete should speak volumes about the state of the sport.

Any ideas on how many people show to the average spearo comp? It seems like the spearing trip to Telegraph cove last year drew in more divers than the last Canadian comp- if I have my facts straight?

Jon

 

[cdavis]

I think Jon is on to something. I'd like to compete, but not enough to travel a long way and spend money to enter an event where every move seems a bit micro-managed(sorry, but I am terminally unable to take orders from anybody). Freedive-a-palooza, on the other hand, was fabulous. Pretty much, nobody gave any orders, best chance to do some depth with good safety that I've had since the PFI clinic, all the diving you could do, almost any piece of gear under the sun available to try, lots of good divers to learn from, available for long periods and willing to answer a zillion questions, great comradery, campfire stories, etc, etc, etc. Its over a thousand miles from home and the water temp is mind-boggling for a Florida boy, but I'll be back next year.

Jon, you are definitely going to need a longer rope.

Connor

 

[laminar]

Yep, you're right Jon. Fun events draw more than competitions, unless the competition is in an awesome location and attractive for other reasons...like side trips.

I have been working on an idea for a competition that doesn't feel like a competition. Something to sink your fins into if you have a competitive streak or something to complete for the fun of it. Scalable for any number of competitors. It's half done, and what I think I'll do is post a draft on my website soon, link it to this thread and a new one, and then if it captures any interest, make a wiki for easy contributions and stuff. Hell, I'd even organize one for next summer in your neck of the woods if it is appealing.

I hope to find some time to finish it in the next few days.

 

[Jon]

Liability insurance will keep me from ever turning Freedive-A-Plooza into a competition- I checked into a couple of years ago and it's not worth the headache, or the cash outlay, to me. Things may be different in Canada or other countries. I know that when I have dove throughout the Caribbean there are huge differences between the various islands on what they will, and will not, let you do in the water.

I still like to read about all the world records going on, but that's not what I want to do with my spare time, nor is it what most of the freedivers I know want to do. It certainly isn't want I want to spend my spare time planning, or insuring

What I DO see people wanting to do, is to extend their personal bests in as safe an environment as possible- which is often only available to competitors. I think that offering some kind of safe depth option during any of these events will draw in people.

I think this is the reason the PFI clinics have been so successful. People don't go their to become the next world record holder. They go there to learn how to dive deeper under the watchful eye of Kirk and Mandy so they can do it as safely as possible.

Jon

 

[laminar]

Insurance and liability is a good point, Jon. PFI has liability insurance, of course, and perhaps they stretch it to include the competitions they hold - I don't know for sure. Finding insurance for competitions is still a losing battle, even in Canada, and, as we know, nails in the coffin in the US despite many other sports in existence that are more "extreme."

 

[land shark]

Jon
you are on the right track its called a club or an org. develope a healthy club and the competition will follow naturally.

just my .02 cents

 

[Jon]

I've heard that things have changed (with insurance) but last time I checked into it, through the USAA, they wanted me to run the comp through my instructor's insurance. Now, I am certified as an Advanced Trimix Diver, which allows me to dive to 300, but my teaching credentials limit me to 132'- which wouldn't be much of a competition if everyone was limited to that.:head

I called up a few of my friends who are trimix instructors to see if we could USE their insurance to push the max depths down to 300' and they just shook their head and laughed- while mumbling something about how they couldn't risk loosing their house, shop, boat, and kid's college fund to help out with my little adventure.:head

I, briefly, thought about getting my instructor rating for that, as I am already a trimix gas blending instructor, but it just wasn't worth it for me financially, and it wouldn't make sense to do it just to run a freediving competition.

As far as clubs go, all the scuba clubs I know of are dying a slow, and painful, death. We see plenty of the old clubs out on my father-in-law's charter boat. These are groups that could put 20 people on a boat every time they booked in the past and now are struggling to put together even 6 people for a dive.

The local scuba clubs are a faint shadow of their former selves. I've stopped even going to meeting because no one dives- and they certainly don't freedive. Our underwater hockey club used to get 20 people a week and last winter there were some nights that we just canceled because only 4 of us showed up.

The editor of one of the regional scuba magazines made a comment that in the past 6 years the number of dive shops in the Midwestern part of the US has dropped from over 600 to less than 250. The industry as a whole is in decline and no one wants to talk about it- least of all PADI. For him that meant fewer shops he could hit up for advertising dollars, for local scuba shops it means that business is drifting away for many different reasons.

We discussed much of this, over a few beers,this past weekend as well. There are many different reasons: including and aging population, weak personal economy, increased expense of the sport, competition from the Internet, the rapid decline of the environment- that anyone who has been diving for at least 10 years has seen. Add in shorter attention spans, competition interests, and Ted turning into a warm water wuss, and you've got a plethora of reasons why things are on the decline for the dive industry.

I think that competitions are just at the razors edge of this trend.

Sorry for the rambling post, that went WAY off topic, but these are all things that were just discussed this past weekend.

Jon

 

[Walrus]

Interesting thread,
I have noticed in most countries there is a really big gap opening between people starting out and the seasoned competitors already in top 20 world rankings and/or even world record holders. I agree with Peter it doesn't make sense the Newbie's have to compete against that level?!

There isn't anything stopping National AIDA's to introduce their own categories such as age or Novice. I know that USAA already have a Masters division. Like other sports the normal world rankings and National records would be the "Open" division" which is recognized by AIDA International, nothing changes there. The other categories competition results/records would be recognised by the AIDA National itself.
Anyone have ideas of what sort of categories and how many ?
With most National competitions having less then 20 competitors it wouldn't make sense to have too many categories.

How would a Newbie/Novice category possibly work ?
A Novice has never done a competition ?
1 competition ?
2 competitions ?


I think a Junior and/or Novice division is what it needed most to encourage newer people into the sport. Age groups are tricky when starting at 18, in order to have a Junior division needs to have at least a few years there to have a reasonable sized group. I have been watching the Tour the France , they have a White Jersey for best young rider - under 25. In the Tour the under 25's really are the Newbies. That sort of age isn't too far off for freediving, there aren't many top freedivers under 25, Alexey and Guilliame are the odd ones out I can think of. By far the bulk of really good freedivers are in the 25+ age group.

The minimum number of age groups might then look something like this :-

Junior 18 - 24
Masters 45+
Open

Then could still have Novice/Newbie ?


Any thoughts/ comments ?

Cheers,
Wal

 

[ggarrett]

Interesting thread...,
I know that USAA already have a Masters division.....,
Anyone have ideas of what sort of categories and how many ?....,
I think a Junior and/or Novice division is what it needed most to encourage newer people into the sport.....,
Junior 18 - 24
Masters 45+
Open.....
Any thoughts/ comments ?.....

A couple thoughts and comments..

Think "Meet" not "competition." I have found that these get-togethers are not really competitions between freedivers. Rather, freedivers meet at these events to do what we all enjoy. Like a Swim Meet, I like to think of these events as Freediving Meets. Meets are about the people and that's what's it's about in the end. The only competition I have experienced in these "meets" is going for records. Even then, there's a huge camaraderie between "competitors" because, in the end, a freedivers are not trying to beat the other divers, they're trying to beat the record which may even be their own. We all cheer when someone has a good performance. So, think "Meets."

Regarding the Master's Division: as the almost sole person in this division, I find it virtually meaningless. (Bill, get into the swim this year and don't leave me hanging here.) When a 59 year old or a 70 year old can hold the National Record for all ages, a Master's category seems kind of like a consolation prize. I know it's well intentioned but that's how it feels from this side. This age phenomena is an interesting aspect of the sport which will only become more so when people like Stig and Natalia age another 20 years.

Junior category: I think the 18 to 24 year olds might feel put down to be called "junior," but let them answer for themselves.

My best suggestion is to adopt an attitude that "the newbie at a freediving meet is the most important person there." We, freedivers, who have been at meets before need to welcome these new folks and openly share our knowledge and experience with them. We should share our joy of performing with them and everyone else. Newer people will come to the sport as more and more publicity develops. We need to be ready to welcome them. Just an idea...

After traveling to a lots of meets in Vancouver and spending enough doing so, I have found that I do much better if the freediving meet is not my sole reason for traveling. So, I now I try to make these excursions into vacations and try to get my wife to come along. For a guy from Wyoming, places like Hawaii, Japan, Vancouver, and Slovenia have been some of the greatest travel experiences of my life. If it's all about the two minutes that a swim DNF, it's too much stress and not worth it. So, selling the venue may be as important as selling the event. I have to admit freediving has the most interesting people in some of the most interesting places.

Take what you like and leave the rest. Thanks.

In peace,
Glen

 

[Walrus]

Thanks Glen,
yeh your'e right "Junior" is probably not the best name
Could just be "Under 25's" or something. If you do have categories and like you said with the Masters there are only 1 or 2 people in it it's not that useful. There are many different reasons why people compete, I'm like you traveling and catching up with other freedivers is part of it. I also know some people are put off from competing if the standard is too high. Perhaps the beginner comps like Benny was talking about offers another alternative of encouraging new people, with the experienced divers not taking part. Most comps I've been do they do a reasonable job of welcoming new divers with people being encouraging and sharing information. Have to say that having complicated rules are one of the least welcoming things.

Wal

 

[ggarrett]

Thank you Wal,

A couple more thoughts and comments about public interest and competitions...

In my humble opinion, DNF offers most and best potential of becoming a major competitive and a possible Olympic sport. And as such, DNF probably offers the greatest potential for growth and newcomers. The reasons and realities for this include:
- the dynamic disciplines offer the best spectator experience over STA and CWT/CNF. STA is too long and boring to the average view. DYN can be even more exciting due to the speed and distance. But for reasons listed below, I still believe the DNF offers more.
- the dynamic disciplines offer the best events to televise, both in terms of set-up and coverage. CWT/CNF is hard to setup and hard to watch at greater depths.
-DNF is available to almost everyone, everywhere with a 25 yard or 25 meter swimming pool in their community. Pools provide a safe environment to train. So, just about every swimmer can give it a try. Those swimmers who take to it can train anywhere, yes even in a place like Wyoming without and ocean and train to a world-class level.
-DNF requires no special equipment. Those fins can get expensive for the the beginner. CNF/CWT requires a lot of set-up, people, expense, coordination, and a special place with the right conditions just to train for a safe dive- not to mention a meet.
-People can directly relate their own experience to DNF. Not so, with fins or CWT/CNF. Most people who swim have tried a length underwater. Not everyone can even get themselves into situations for DYN, CWT, and CNF.
-just about anyone of any age has a chance to rise to the top (at least in some places) or at least give the younger set a run for their money.
-DNF was an olympic sport at one time for a lot of the above reasons.
So, given all that, just about everyone in first world has access to DNF, I believe it has the biggest population base for growth. The fact that the Japanese have found a national television market in DNF freediving and no other discipline is proof of the potential of DNF as a sport for commercial and mass comsumption.

Others may find this offensive and disagree. But, having said all this, I have to acknowledge that in the USA most freedivers find their way to the sport via scuba diving and spearfishing, not through their local swimming pool. I think the reason for this goes to Kirk Krack and PFI. And the other reality is that the greatest populations in the world live on the coast lines. So, the market for CWT/CNF is still there. CNF/CWT are just not as telegenic.

The other reality that I observe to that a lot of people really like technology and all of the equipment that goes with DYN, CWT and CNF. A lot of folks like the suits, the low volume masks, the special fins, the weights. This equipment means manufactures and sellers, and thus potential sponsors. DNF can only get sponsors who sell goggles and swimming suits.

So, there's a couple more ideas to toss around.

In peace,
Glen

 

[cebaztian]

Organizing competitions seems to have different challenges in different countries.

Many of the problems adressed in this thread I actually feel my organization has found a solution to:

Nordic Deep
2004 13 athletes
2005 28 athletes
2006 about 38 athletes
2007 more than 45 athletes

About ten nationalities present.

The competition is held in dark cold water where burning jelly fish roam.

So why do people come? Of course many has their own personal reasons, but as a organizer I see it this way.

If you are a student and second year vistor from another country and register early you can pay as little as 70 euro (Others could pay as much as 185 euros), for this you get (during a period of 5 days):

- 6 aida ranking competions (incl freedom to chose!)
- Three fun competions not based on maximum achievements
- Chances to win some nice prices not based on points
- Scientific tests and lectures
- Film/discussion nights and maybe some fire at the beach
- Yoga by "instructors" most mornings
- Cheap homecooked food at low price.

Of course this is not the only reasons, there must be something I would call added value.

- Everyone living close to each other so that social interaction is easy.(13 euro a night).
- Enough people showing up so that it feels like an event.
- Athletes bringing their "good mood" and "stories" and "help" e t c
- Some local stars showing up inspiring the newcomers.
- An additional pointsystem that rewards points according to the difficulty of the discipline and that does not work in a way that if you loose one discpline you are down in the bottom.
- Good weather
- Retailers of gear might show up.
- Aida sweden might hold their annual meeting here.

As an organizer you could actually charge for these things (as you could charge for blue warm water even though it is not a cost for the organizer). FSE has chosen not to. This is more or less a break-even event.

It depends on a lot of free work. And this works as long as the crew feels they have fun.

It has no third liability insurance (since our country is not so crazy on sueing each other). As long as I as head organizer (and the Aida officials present) follow the regulations and make the right decisions when it comes to "weather cancel" and dive set up I feel it is risk worth taking.

Sebastian
Freediving competition - Nordic deep

PS. Still more assistants needed