Cycling shoes for monofin use...

[Apneaddict]

I'm loving the boa fastener. I can get out of the fin with 1-hand in 3-seconds!

Really nice even pressure when tightening.

You can go down 5-8m with neoprene socks on and get a tighter adjustment, quite easily!!

We'll see how it holds up over time.

 

[REVAN]

...I've been experimenting with two pairs of shimanos.... One flex 6 (composite) one flex 11 ( carbon ). They are vastly different!...
I'm suddenly realizing this is a huge variable!!!!!

Yet another reason to have the shoe validated with the monofin design by the manufacturer, and sold as a complete ready to swim system...

 

[noa]

View attachment 39490 Some of those new closures are cool. I haven't used them though. They need to be secure!

I've been experimenting with two pairs of shimanos.... One flex 6 (composite) one flex 11 ( carbon ). They are vastly different!

Rubber pockets on hyper fins flex as part of the design. That part of the flex is a swimmers choice variable on Lunocets we haven't talked of much! View attachment 39490look how much flex 6 bends with the pressure of one hand! I think a solid peduncle might work with these shoes!?!?? I switched to the flex 11's for tomorrow. I'll take a similar flex photo. They are nearly solid in comparison. The flex designed into the peduncle spring provides nearly all the total flex.

I'm suddenly realizing this is a huge variable!!!!!

These are very interesting observations and questions. Indeed much to be explored...

 

[noa]

That was my first thought, Chip, but then I noticed that the bottom strap actually starts at the toes, loops on the opposite side a little further up, and then up again to velcro over the middle of the foot. So it actually stands in the place of two straps. Seems elegant, thought I'm not sure whether it's as strong as the alternative. noa seems to like it.

noa, I would actually rather save a little money and go with the Riots, but I'm concerned about the composite sole failing, because I WILL be putting it under a lot of stress. That's why I was looking at the Vaypor--it's straight carbon weave, rather than the nylon+carbon composite. If I thought the composite would hold up, I would go for it.

As far as I can tell, the Riot is a full carbon sole. It looks strong and I don't think it would break all that easily.
However, given enough use, the upper on the Riot probably could.
Read through the Bont site and you will see how the new Vapor has an in between layer on the upper that is designed to decrease stretch and deformation. That would most likely work well in our application where we put quite a bit of pressure while having completely soaked a material that was not necessarily designed to withstand this use.

 

[Ichthys]

I noted that with interest, but I didn't realize it wasn't on the Riot. I guess that's another plus for the Vaypor. Still thinking about that Z strap. Seems to me you would be putting less stress on the straps in a standard configuration, whereas the Z strap might require the force of two straps in one. Has this been your experience, noa? I wonder if it could be an issue down the road, with me cinching it down all of the time. Is the strap pretty strong? Thanks!

Very interesting observation, Chip. I'd be interested to hear how the two pairs compare. Just off the top of my head, I would think it would be a good idea to leave the flexing in this application to something that is designed to handle this sort of flexing long-term--the Lunocet peduncle. Just one less reason for the shoes to fail, bearing in mind that this is not their intended use. On the other hand it would be very valuable to know what the difference is between a more solid shoe's interaction with this peduncle, and the more flexible shoe.

 

[Chipswim]

Good thought Revan. That certainly seems like one solid approach. I think shoe flex needs to be considered then optimized to get the best performance. I guess the customer and manufacturer have to both be in the mix to get it personalized and optimized.

Maybe I'm late to the party and everyone has been working on this shoe flex already.

Revan? Could you share which shoe or type of shoe you chose and why you choose it. Do you always use that shoe then design the orcas to compliment it. Do you intentionally incorporate shoes into overall flex. Do you have a device to quantify and verify overall flex to meet your standards? (Understand you may hold some of this as proprietary intellectual property!)

Started to consider this question because of a video Kars posted of a high level hyper fin sprint competition near the beginning of 2015 Lunocet thread. Before the race a competitor soaped up his feet put on his rubber foot pocket fin and sloshed it on the surface of the water. Clearly the rubber foot pockets and his feet were involved in the flex pattern. Got me thinking differently. Then I noticed Shimano (in very small print) prints a flex rating on the sole of shoes!!!! Hmmmmmm..... I've got a variable to play with! Only two choices so far 6 & 11.

Thinking back to an occasion when I sent a complete set up (carbon shoes and all) of an early Luno I really liked to Ted and he used a device to compare it's flex to others he was making. I sumize he is also working with overall flex but I haven't noticed the shoe portion discussed as a separate topic or recommendation.

I remember some price point shoes included or not discussions about the over all device but not performance in the forums.

Thinking most monofin shoe buyers are going to arrive at a shoe choice moment and wind up with a composite sole flex 6 for $100+ or a carbon sole flex 11 for $200+...... For the life of that pair of shoes their decision effects their exotic mono experience!

Maybe there is sufficient adjustability in the fin to make either work. ( That would be my experience so far. ) BUT The two are significantly different and one must ultimately be better for a particular swimmer and type of swimming compared to the other.

 

[Chipswim]

You can see the firmer flex in the top photo deflects much less than the softer flex pictured below.

Like everybody else I keep messing with the set up looking for a little more.

Just got back from timing the fresh shoe set up. In a nutshell it was another half a second quicker in 25 wide open throttle. Under 12 seconds for the first time.... And consistently. I'll post the actual times on the 2015 Luno thread.

Maybe softer would be better for distance attempts.... Maybe not. Need to try it.

I realize being huge and old ...... fast isn't as fast and far isn't as far as it is for many readers here but it gives you something to try for yourself.

 

[REVAN]

...Revan? Could you share which shoe or type of shoe you chose and why you choose it. Do you always use that shoe then design the orcas to compliment it. Do you intentionally incorporate shoes into overall flex. Do you have a device to quantify and verify overall flex to meet your standards? (Understand you may hold some of this as proprietary intellectual property!)...

Depending on the shoe size, I use the Shimano RT-32 or WR-35 shoe on the X-20, but they are not compatible with your fin, Chip. These shoes use a 4 hole bolt pattern and the Lunocet uses a 3 hole bolt pattern. The X-20 is specifically designed around these shoes, and the match is good enough that I have never had any shoes come apart on the X-20. It is a well-tuned integrated system, with good swimming performance.

Of course, other shoes can be bolted on, but that would be a bit of an experiment. Who know what little issues and interferences may be found? Although, it probably would be nothing serious, or that could not be remedied in some way.

 

[Chipswim]

Thanks for the insight!

 

[noa]

I noted that with interest, but I didn't realize it wasn't on the Riot. I guess that's another plus for the Vaypor. Still thinking about that Z strap. Seems to me you would be putting less stress on the straps in a standard configuration, whereas the Z strap might require the force of two straps in one. Has this been your experience, noa? I wonder if it could be an issue down the road, with me cinching it down all of the time. Is the strap pretty strong? Thanks!

Very interesting observation, Chip. I'd be interested to hear how the two pairs compare. Just off the top of my head, I would think it would be a good idea to leave the flexing in this application to something that is designed to handle this sort of flexing long-term--the Lunocet peduncle. Just one less reason for the shoes to fail, bearing in mind that this is not their intended use. On the other hand it would be very valuable to know what the difference is between a more solid shoe's interaction with this peduncle, and the more flexible shoe.

The a strap works well enough but not fantastically. It tries to kill two birds with one stone and does it just ok.
We have stated it many times before and one must always remember that, all these shoes are made for cycling, not what we do with them. So no matter what we do and which model we choose, we are mainly trying to minimize the compromise we need to be making. A shoe using cycling technology but designed for fin use would be quite different.

 

[Chipswim]

Could you say some of the qualities of the dream finning shoes as you are imagining them Noa?

 

[noa]

We had gone into that fairly extensively in one of the threads. Maybe it was somewhere in the 2014 Lunocet. Lots of interesting information was exchanged there.

 

[Chipswim]

I think the soles (flex especially) uppers and closure need to be fantastic and durable. Then the whole should be hydrodynamic.

Outside of that I don't ask for much....

 

[Grimorkin]

I notice most of the shoes talked about or shown here use ratchets.

When I was looking at what shoes to get for when my Lunocet turns up (*Praying Ted ships mine soon*) all of the ratchet closing shoes used plastic ratchets which, I'll be honest, didn't look quite up to the job of withstanding a full force monofin kick. So I went for a cheap(ish) pair of 3 velcro strap shoes for the time being and figured I could upgrade as and when appropriate.

I'm assuming that those people who have tried the new Lunocet with ratchet shoes aren't having any issues, like ratchets snapping or anything?

 

[Chipswim]

Ted likes the Velcro strips. I had some weak Velcro early... better since.

I have broken the plastic ratchet handles. Just replaced two... Actual strap and grip holding up well.

I think you'll be fine.

 

[REVAN]

I use shoes with straight velcro closures. It works great for the X-20. I figure the less metal in the system, the better. Springs rust notoriously fast, unless they are made from a really expensive shape memory titanium alloy, instead of the far more common spring steel. That is why I am not a fan of the rachet systems on shoes for use on diving fins.

 

[Chipswim]

Do you find that you like them very tight? I like VERY TIGHT. Still feels comfortable to me. So tight that the Velcro strap extends beyond the Velcro pad there to receive it. Rather than adding Velcro to the receiving area I've started using nice arch supports and thickening the tongue making the Velcro work better ( length wise) as it is.

I usually get the shoes wet then tighten because I can get them more secure that way. I find AA's tightening at depth to be clever.

Agree about the simple is better. I do like the ratchets though till I break them.

Both Revan and Ted are on the record as being satisfied with Velcro closures. That's about as strong a recommendation as you could get!

 

[Philip Fennell]

I was dragging around on the internet looking at aero shoe covers for cycling shoes, as you do, and I happened upon these new Mavic shoes with built-in aero covers for the boa binding system which I thought might be of interest to this thread:

Nice aren't they!

If the zip proved to be reasonably easy to operate I think they'd go some way to answering my safety concerns over shoe covers on your fin shoes. They've got carbon fibre soles but come at a rather natty price of £250 - £300. They'd better be worth something in effort for the price you pay.

That said, in reality, the distance/time we spend in a dive or a DYN I'd be surprised if the difference would be meaningfully measurable! When you get down to the finer points of hydrodynamics people well tend to point out that the difference in that area (the feet/shoes) is small compared to the lumpy and un-streamlined bit up-front (the rest of ourselves).

 

[finSailor]

I use neoprene covers to keep my feet warm while cycling during the winter. The cover has a zipper behind and a velcro strap over sole. It cover 90% of the shoe and would make any shoe fully hydrodynamic. Haven't tried it in water, just tested over one shoe on dry. Fits perfectly. Worth testing?

Sorry about picture quality, B/W is a challenge to mobile phone cameras..

 

[Philip Fennell]

...That said, in reality, the distance/time we spend in a dive or a DYN I'd be surprised if the difference would be meaningfully measurable! When you get down to the finer points of hydrodynamics people well tend to point out that the difference in that area (the feet/shoes) is small compared to the lumpy and un-streamlined bit up-front (the rest of ourselves).

@neurodoc pointed-out these Orca aero shoe covers in a comment of his on another thread

and you look at the claim of their effect on performance:

"8 watts savings at 48km/h (30mph) or 24 seconds over a distance of 40km (25 miles)"​

Now, I'm no expert in the fields of aero/hydrodynamics but I know enough to know the following:

• An example world record DYN speed of 1.2 m/s (Goran Colak's 273m record, 2011)
• From the above, riding a bike at 13.3 m/s
• Water density is approx. 1000 kg/m3
• Air density is approx. 1.2041 kg/m3
• Drag is proportional to the square of the velocity.
• The frontal area of a cyclist is much greater than a freediver.

So, if my thinking is correct, the cyclist is about 11x faster than the freediver for a duration that's 13x longer over a distance that's 147x further. After squaring the velocities (and this is probably badly un-scientific to do just that) you see that the difference between the cyclist and the freediver is 123x. But, water is over 800x denser than air (at the same temperature) so that 'should' have an overriding effect on the difference that streamlining would have on a freediver compared to a cyclist.

So this is where the clever people, who study this stuff, step in and pull holes in my half-baked assumptions but it would be interesting to get some idea about how much different/greater effect water density has, compared to air density on streamlining and hydrodynamics vs aerodynamics to know whether such notions of 'how streamlined our foot pockets or shoes are that we attach to our fins' and would it even be noticeable at anything less than the elite levels of freediving if at all there.


Philip