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DCI and freediving

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
if not, it is a (pic1) and (pic2 )production.

I cannot make it simpler than this!

This is partly where I reference from. Of course I wont show extensive up to date company manuals. The last time I did in water deco and surD02 was 1999. (pic 3)its bread and butter stuff, ahhh the memories.

Sebastions thoughts may be all good theory/ practice but I say again.

If you get (pic 4) you need one of these (pic 5)

Good luck
 

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Let me be the first to tell you that DCS is being phased out this was due I believe to issues with signs and symptoms relating to treatments. Here is a link(not googled) to one of the world leaders in hyperbaric medicine in which you can see what the new format is like.

Diving doctor, hyperbaric oxygen therapy and decompression chamber London | Londonhyperbaric.com
As I said this started coming in over 10 years ago. Wikipedia and google are not ideal sources of information.
I see only a commercial website selling dry diving courses in hyperbaric chambers (a company you work for?). I did not manage to find anywhere on their website anything telling that DCS is no more an issue since ten years and that it has been phased out by DCI. Can you point us to that information?

BTW, Wikipedia is just fine as source of information in most cases, and certainly usually better than commercial websites. However, the definition od DCS vs. DCI is the same anywhere you look. Basically DCI = DCS + diverse barotrauma types. However, you denied both at freediving - you wrote DCI at freediving is myth.


Trux... How's that wheel coming along? Take a look at the original post 3rd paragraph. Particularly congested sinus. Could it be feasable that squeeze resulting barotrauma offers a viable direct pathway for air to enter the circulatory system, assited by overpressure with equalisation?

That would be still DCI. So you have to chose whether you tell DCI is myth, or whether you just want to deny DCS. However, regardless what you actually meant, in either case you are wrong. In case of DCI you contradict yourself, in one hand telling that freediving DCI is myth and in ther and telling it was a barotrauma.

And although in Herbert's case DCI is more likely than pure DCS, DCS at freediving is still reality and has been confrmed by detection of tear gas bubble formation, by Doppler, and by other modern diagnostics methods. It is enough to read through the links I posted earler in this thread.
 
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Trux, try the DCI section on the top tabs ...3rd along.

I have explained briefly why DCS is being phased out asI remember it, it was quite a few years back mind.

You wont find anything because it is no more.

Your sources are well dated mate.

I did not realise with my original comment that this is a step back to the dark ages.
 
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Trux, try the DCI section on the top tabs ...3rd along.

I have explained briefly why DCS is being phased out.
Sorry, I do not see anything telling DCS (bends) are phased out by DCI. As far as I can see DCS (bends) are still the subset of the wider term DCI, and the information on that website just confirms it. Can you post the quote showing the contrary?

Your sources are well dated mate.

I did not realise with my original comment that this is a step back to the dark ages.
My sources are just fine. You may want to start distignuishing between DCI and DCS.

However, all this is just unimportant childish playing with the words. The principal is that you still claim DCI at freediving is myth, which is a complete nonsense, but despite the offered evidence you are unable to admit you were wrong.
 
So you think when your website recently replaced all terms DCS with DCI, that it means DCS no more exists? That's a bit foolish. As I explained, under the term DCS are widely understood bends related problems, while the broader term DCI includes also barotrauma related issues.

However, your website replaced the terms DCS with DCI only very recently - still in 2010 (and possibly also later), they used DCS widely (and in fact incorrectly) everywhere on the website. They used them in exactly the opposite way than generally used - DCI for bends and DCS for the wider group of symptoms. That was actually incoherent with the common use of the terms already in that time. Just have a look at an archived page from this domain from July 2010: Decompression chamber / Hyperbaric chamber for divers with the bends / decompression illness, London Recompression & Hyperbaric facilities - The London Diving Chamber

So it was perhaps not the best choice using a website that used the "incorrect" and "so 70's" term still in 2010.

However as I wrote, it is completely unimportant whether you want to use the term DCS or DCI. From my point of view, you can call it Caisson Sickness or whatever else you want, but you are still wrong when claiming that freediving DCI is myth. Regardless whether you mean bends or barotraumas.
 
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It stems from this

Doc's Page

We no longer use the term "caissons disease"

Change is not an overnight process.

Write and tell them what you think. Maybe they will change it to what suits you. Persuade them to conduct tests, Get the evidence you need to put in place what freedivers need to support their dives in a commercially/sponsored etc environment.
You can do it.


Make of it what you will and good luck
 
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It stems from this
Doc's Page
Thanks for finally agreeing on the DCI and DCS definition as I posted. From your link:

"This term is proposed to encompass disorders previously known as Decompression Sickness (DCS), and Arterial Gas Embolism (AGE)."
and also
"Accepting the term "DCI" does not imply that the old terminology "DCS" and "AGE" should be eliminated."

In other words DCI is proposed to be used for the combined DCS and AGE (~ bends and barotrauma), but it does not mean the individual issues cannot occure individually. That's exactly what I write since the beginning.

Now just tell us what exacty you mean when you tell freediving DCI is myth. Did you mean only DCS/bends, only AGE/barotrauma, or really both encopassed (DCI)? If the accidents of Nitsch, Coste, Franz, Musimu, Maldame, Fattah, Petrovic, and countless others were no bends, nor barotrauma, hence no DCI, what were they according to you?
 
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How about the whole article then as your quote is out of context and you can already see renowned establishments starting to use it.You seem to have conveniently missed out the start with "time to accept reality" and the summation "However, when classifying an individual patient the inherent uncertainty is best reflected by the term decompression illness."
It is no wonder why you may be having issues coming to terms with this.

lol, You give a whole new meaning to the term "DCI Denial

Trux, be aware it could all change next weeK. When I go back here in a few months I will ask

The National Hyperbaric Centre

Here is the whole article:



Classification of the decompression disorders:

time to accept reality

Richard E. Moon, M.D. Durham, North Carolina

The constellation of signs and symptoms associated with a reduction in ambient pressure was first observed in compressed air workers in the 19th century and was called "compressed air illness" or "caisson disease." Similar signs and symptoms were subsequently observed in divers breathing compressed air and were referred to as "diver's paralysis" or "diver's palsy." Early in this century the elucidation of the pathophysiology of this disorder led to the terms "decompression sickness" (DCS) for in situ bubble formation caused by inert gas supersaturation, and "arterial gas embolism" (AGE) for intravascular gas due to pulmonary over-pressurization.

In 1960, in reference to compressed air workers, Golding classified decompression sickness as "type I," referring to cases exhibiting only pain, and "type II," in which there were symptoms other than pain, or abnormal physical signs, including neurological manifestations (1). This sub-classification (type I DCS, type II DCS, and arterial gas embolism) has been used by the US Navy (USN) as a guide to diagnosis and treatment. According to the USN algorithm, type I DCS is to be treated under certain conditions with USN Table 5, whereas type II requires USN Table 6. The recommended treatment for AGE was USN Table 6A. For the majority of cases this treatment algorithm has been efficacious, and it has been widely accepted. Epidemiologic data pertinent to divers have traditionally not been recorded in sufficient detail to allow a more specific classification. However, as long as the majority of cases were associated with commercial or military diving there was no need to do so. Prediction of outcome and triaging were unnecessary, since chambers were available on site, and in the vast majority of cases in which recompression treatment was administered shortly after the onset of symptoms there was complete resolution. As a descriptive and epidemiologic tool, however, the "type I/type II" scheme has been lacking. The type II classification encompasses a huge spectrum of disease, ranging from paresthesias to quadriplegia. Furthermore, a universally accepted definition of the two types of DCS does not exist. Whereas type I in the Golding scheme includes only pain, the USN definition encompasses skin and Iymphatic manifestations (2). Type II has also some times been extended to include type I symptoms that occur during decompression. Both types are mutually exclusive in the Golding classification while the USN Diving Manual refers to types I and II symptoms and allows both types to coexist. Because of such inconsistencies it is impossible to methodically compare published series of diving accidents, as authors often do not define the manner in which they use the classification. In recent years, the usefulness of this traditional classification scheme has declined, due to several factors. First has been the growth of civilian recreational diving and the associated accidents, where often 24 h or more delay before recompression therapy is typical, and the outcome after treatment is less than uniformly successful. Second is the recognition of the difficulty of accurately classifying cases of decompression-associated symptoms. The traditional classification scheme is frequently applied inconsistently and incorrectly, undoubtedly in part due to the difficulty of ascertaining the exact cause of a diving accident (DCS vs. AGE). The diver may not remember, and the buddy has often not observed the breathing pattern during ascent. The clinical picture may be similarly unrevealing: gas embolism superimposed upon tissues with a significant inert gas load may result in a clinical presentation that resembles DCS rather than AGE. Third, the distinction between DCS and AGE has been further blurred by the realization that arterial bubbles probably contribute to the pathophysiology of decompression sickness in settings other than pulmonary barotrauma. Finally, the previously close relationship between DCS classification and choice of treatment table has now become less distinct. Many civilian diving physicians now treat all types of DCS with USN Table 6, irrespective of their classification, and the US Navy Diving Manual now recommends that recompression treatment of both DCS and AGE should begin at 60 fsw (18 msw). Even in USN practice, the only remaining therapeutic use for the old classification is to decide whether USN Table 5 can be utilized (i.e., to classify decompression sickness into "type I" and "non-type I"). If the old classification is to be discarded, with what should it be replaced? To reexamine the issue of diagnostic terminology, a workshop was held in 1990 in which there was a consensus in favor of abolishing the classification based on etiology (AGE vs. DCS) (3). The workshop participants recognized the difficulty of determining accurately the pathophysiology of decompression accidents and accepted the all-encompassing term decompression illness (DCI). While no new concept is engendered by this simple semantic change, it permits reference to gas bubble disease without requiring any insight into pathophysiology, as is implied when "decompression sickness" or "arterial gas embolism" are used. It was further proposed that it would be more appropriate to describe DCI descriptively, according to onset, evolution, and some estimation (e.g., depth-time profile) of inert gas load. The various reasons for classification of any disease include the need to predict prognosis and susceptibility to treatment and to design treatment algorithms. Identification of subsets that are particularly amenable or resistant to treatment is essential for the design of clinical trials. In the literature on neurologic bends it is impossible to identify such subsets because such a wide spectrum of disease is lumped into the category type II DCS. However, recent studies have demonstrated the feasibility of identifying such subsets by sub-classifying neurologic bends according to severity (4,5). It is traditional in medicine to attempt to classify diseases according to causation. However, in the absence of a unified knowledge of pathophysiology, many classification schemes in current use in other medical disciplines incorporate symptoms or signs, for example schizophrenia, lymphoma, migraine, and leprosy. The availability of a specific diagnostic procedure which can differentiate subsets (the usual requirement for classification of individuals cases by etiology) is missing for such entities, as well as, for the present, the decompression disorders. Irrespective of whether the data structure suggested by Francis and Smith (3) is the best one, to allude to either DCS or AGE, "decompression illness" is unquestionably a useful shorthand term requiring no insight into the pathogenesis of a particular case of gas bubble disease. Indeed, it has been widely accepted as such. The term "DCI" has been embraced by organizations whose task it is to collect epidemiologic data as well as by scientists and clinicians. A literature search at the time of writing reveals 35 indexed publications using the term "decompression illness." The development of large databases containing detailed information about symptomatology now makes available the tools necessary to examine the possibility that a new classification system, for example, frequent clustering of symptoms, or even better, response to treatment and long-term outcome, might be more clinically useful than the present one. Just such an approach was used to develop a classification for the muscular dystrophies (6). Whether decompression disorders are amenable to similar analysis is an unanswered question, but even to attempt it would require more detail than is available in the present classification.

Accepting the term "DCI" does not imply that the old terminology "DCS" and "AGE" should be eliminated. These terms are unambiguous and perfectly appropriate for denoting the pathophysiologic concepts for which they were defined. However, when classifying an individual patient the inherent uncertainty is best reflected by the term decompression illness.

REFERENCES

1. Golding F, Griffiths P, Hempleman HV, Paton WDM, Walder DN. Decompression sickness during construction of the Dartford Tunnel. Br J Ind Med 1960; 17:167-180.

2. Navy Department. US Navy Diving Manual, vol. 1 revision 3. Air diving. NAVSEA 0994-LP-001-9110. Flagstaff, AZ: Best Publishing, 1993.

3. Francis TJR, Smith DJ, editors. Describing decompression illness. Kensington, MD: Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society,1991.

4. Kelleher PC, Pethybridge RJ, Francis TJR. Outcome of neurologicaL decompression illness: development of a manifestation-based model. Aviat Space Environ Med 1996; 67:654 65B.

5. Ball R. Effect of severity, time to recompression with oxygen, and retreatment on outcome in forty-nine cases of spinal cord decompression sickness. Undersea Hyperbaric Med 1993; 20:133-145.

6. Walton JN, Nattrass FJ. On the classification, natural history and treatment of the myopathies. Brain 1954; 77:169-231.

Return to table of contents
 
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Now just tell us what exacty you mean when you tell freediving DCI is myth. Did you mean only DCS/bends, only AGE/barotrauma, or really both encopassed (DCI)? If the accidents of Nitsch, Coste, Franz, Musimu, Maldame, Fattah, Petrovic, and countless others were no bends, nor barotrauma, hence no DCI, what were they according to you?


LOL, pal o mine

What do you think I am, one of those so called BS "distance readers" Its hard enough diagnosing with the casualty in front of you let alone after the fact and with no documentation/evidence to go by. Unless of course its obvious and like I say "his lungs are coming out of his nose and mouth" (not likely in freediving)

If they have suffered DCI are they aware that they are more prone to re-occurance? can really mess up a career this!

You have DCI, neurological cos you sure do miss whole sections. What table would you like to go on? quick now or its the morgue table!.

In this game bad decisions cost lives
 
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What do you think I am, one of those so called BS "distance readers" Its hard enough diagnosing with the casualty in front of you let alone after the fact and with no documentation/evidence to go by.
Well, I just thought you were one of those who can diagnose on distance. How else did you manage to know that all those cases were no DCI, but just a myth, despite the opposite diagnostics made by experts on site?
 
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My friend
"Experts" You assumed I am an expert and it is flattering. I am far from it in my opinion. Who is the "expert" and what is their diagnosis and how it was arrived at? You will see that "experts" keep their cards very close to their chests as that way they can be less subject to being confronted over their decisions and errors/mistakes are not exposed so as to question their status.
This in turn can protect that status and more often than not is directly proportional to income and future earnings.

Case in point years ago and may still exist were areas in the USN surD02 tables in which obvious errors were present. Attempts to have changes put into place were met with a whole lot of ego. Wether or not the changes were put into effect I have no idea. It is 1999 I last used these tables and should never again. If asked to I would turn around and walk away. This practice for me is now done away with.

The problem was in the field the divers were having to follow these tables verbatim to heck with the consequences to save some "experts" status and probably income. These are scientific "types" being dealt with in these issues and none of them wish to see their theory disproved or superceded making them obsolete. This however does not help the layman following procedure.

Here is a very simple analogy for you. If you were to need specialist surgery for an ailment would you check out your surgeon and what makes them a specialist? track record? and still this is no guarentee. Do not get stuck on this analogy and miss the point here.

Let me be very clear here. I am in no way confronting any "experts" on their opinions for diagnosis/treatment. I havn`t seen any. Given the nature of the task put on these what you are calling "experts" in the treatment and diagnosis of DCI I do not envy them . It is not an easy task.

However, from what I can see from the unconfirmed public information generally documented about the diver mentioned in the opening post on the correctly titled topic I, as in my original post am absolutely slating the procedures in place, whoever implemented them and any so called "expert" involved in them knowing that DCI is an issue in freediving. I would not have touched it with a bargepole!

This is of course... If DCI is an issue in freediving. Of course its a myth! Or else the only folk in the whole debacle with any brains are those making a profit, advertisers, sponsors, "managemet teams" (love that one) etc who can risk a persons life for profit and have zero liability and in their best case scenario even have their actions endorsed by the risk taker.

This is the dark ages...

Think about it the next time you sign an indemnify paper produced by whoever is taking your money in whatever risky pastime you pursue without evaluating or understanding the risk and procedures in place to manage it. More often than not they are useless and you expose yourself and loved ones to unbelievable risk.

No money, no indemnify no responsibility etc...do what you like.

Unfortunately in explaining the situation the point may be lost again(a reminder, its "experts", in relation to your use of the term in the previous post. I am guessing that this level of communication is due to....oh dear WW3. Mind you the peanut gallery all seems to have died from lack of interest we can probably say whatever we like!!) ie. Don`t
get caught up on "Dark Ages"

If caught in its early stages, supposed DCI in freediving could break the mould of these scandelously run ventures and lead the way forward. What do you think of the TC1000 as linked to in a much earlier post? It directly addresses all of the issues you raised in one post and many more you have not. Of course there are limitations as in the capabilitiesof the recieving chamber to permit TUP. taken care of in advance there is no issue and could prove cost effective and a big futere investment in safety and promotion. It is a positive step forward in my opinion.

Take it easy fella

I have been in waiting for a parcel all day...how annoying!!
 
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You assumed I am an expert and it is flattering. I am far from it in my opinion.

I think we all agree in that :)

I am certainly not expert at all in DCI etc, far from it, I know next to nothing about it and doesn't concern me with my dive profiles - but i think you are missing the point in my opinion. The whole point is to discuss, share experiences or theories and find ways to avoid DCI in the first place right? (same as in scuba diving)

The fact that there are advanced portable decompression chambers is interesting, but irrelevant. I certainly don't see anyone going freediving or spearfishing and taking their portable decompression chamber with them!

Not having a portable decompression chamber with you does not mean DCI does not exist. I have friends who got bend while scuba diving - accidents happen. There is always an element of DCI risk, you can't have portable decompression chambers around. Maybe for some high risk cases where the budget is available it would make sense but for the rest of the people it doesn't.

I did like your posts with the photos and references to the photos though :)
 
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Simos buddy,

If you believe you can go diving and not encounter DCI. You are in a fantasy world. If you cannot produce one relevent confirmed/evidenced/documented case of DCI, it is a myth/not proven. If you then continue to dive and and are encountering DCI and not put into place/have a regime to treat it, you may be considered reckless, foolish, etc etc etc. You are not proving me wrong but proving yourself reckless etc. Do you understand? Myth/not proven is irrelevent unless you are trying to convince someone to put into place a treatment regime. Of course try to avoud DCI and what Sebastion presents really well is as he says his thoughts. He mentions the latest "case". I look at the latest case and am shocked/disappointed etc. by the treatment regime. I saw mention of organisational bodies and sponsors. I saw mention of sponsors pulling out! why? wasn`t over the systems in place to manage risk was it? being associated with such a thing can be very damaging to reputations/sales.

Anyone can add a "danger" factor to whatever they do even ironing. To be paid/sponsored to do ironing and add a "danger" factor is...

If you believe DCI is an "accident" there is no point to continue here.

I really don`t mind if you wish to have your cake, eat it, tell everyone its great and sell it.

Bon appetite! Be aware though that over the fence we have our cake etc and have cream and tea with it!

I am glad you liked the pictures, the most important book of all is there!

Cheers now!
 
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Gentlemen. This is a Troll-fest. It appears that for Omega 3 it is about the engagement - not the merits of either argument.

When Omega's assertion regarding DCS in free diving being a 'myth' is challenged, he redirects to the theme of reckless disregard for safety in free diving in general - and so on, back and forth.

The gap in logic between these two non-positions need not be pointed out.
Omega 3 is also lumping sled diving in with other forms of free diving. This is incorrect - again for reasons that are obvious.

My point is that Omega 3s premises are, at best, muddy - and at worst merely intended to preserve the argument (as in the ACT of arguing). This last being the definition of a Troll on the Internet.

We can argue the rightness or wrongness of Herbert and team's judgement call concerning on-site decompression but the fact is it was their call.

This is one of the best threads on the subject to appear on DB - it is a shame that readers new to it will have to wade through Omega's meritless noise.

Let us, however, make an executive Summary:

Relatively mild DCS is encountered by deep free divers (sled diving is not free diving in this definition)
As it has been recognized measures have been put in place at competitions, where these depths and this phenomenon are encountered,
to mitigate and resolve it. (02 hangs, etc.) And they have been proven sufficient and effective.

It is neither a myth nor is it being recklessly disregarded.

Sled diving is a separate issue.
 
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Fondueset you are absolutely correct!


This:
If you believe you can go diving and not encounter DCI. You are in a fantasy world.

Directly contradicts
If you cannot produce one relevent confirmed/evidenced/documented case of DCI, it is a myth/not proven.

Mods! Do something!

Anyway I'm outta here... no point raising sleeping trolls.
 
You are right Fondueset.

I am sorry.

Would you like me to remove my posts?

Mods please remove my posts.
 
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"But the brain is exempt from the diving response, so the diving response alone cannot provide any protection from neurological DCS."

Disiagree with you Fitzy on this. The brain cools, and provided the DR is maintained this enhances gas solubility and limits bubble formation.
 
Hi Mullins,

Based on the results we got, the rewarming phase is as fast as the cooling, i.e., the duration of the dive. But, if you dive again cooling is reinitiated. There are also other considerations, related to unclamping of peripheral ciculatory tree, especially during extreme vasoconstriction under work conditions.

Some say that accent tachycardia helps offload N2, but its not so simple since hypoxia must also be managed; vital organ cooling is one way to mananage this.
 
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