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Descending in a Straight Line
- Thread starter blueface
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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sqnips,
I'm a bit surprised and mystified at an instructor making statements about exhale diving that are inaccurate and misleading. Controling your bouyancy with a precise exhale is not difficult, just takes practice to get precise, like anything else in freediving. Partial exhale diving, call it FRC or 1/2 lung or whatever, is a well established technique that, done properly, provides longer dive times, more comfortable dives and better safety. Try using the search function. There are 4 or 5 long threads that pretty well explain the theory and practice.
I completely agree with you on the importance of good entry technique. Its pretty amazing how much deeper you can get with less effort if your technique is good.
Connor
I'm a bit surprised and mystified at an instructor making statements about exhale diving that are inaccurate and misleading. Controling your bouyancy with a precise exhale is not difficult, just takes practice to get precise, like anything else in freediving. Partial exhale diving, call it FRC or 1/2 lung or whatever, is a well established technique that, done properly, provides longer dive times, more comfortable dives and better safety. Try using the search function. There are 4 or 5 long threads that pretty well explain the theory and practice.
I completely agree with you on the importance of good entry technique. Its pretty amazing how much deeper you can get with less effort if your technique is good.
Connor
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Thanks for the responses! I made a discovery today about my duck dive. My partner said that my leg was not straight (it was bent). When I straightened it out it forced me down much better and down I went at a good rate. I started at 1 meter per second but slowed slightly after about 9 meters. I ended up at the bottom (18 meters in 24 seconds) and went down straighter than before. Erics post really helped along with all here as well. Thanks!
Connor,
first of all, i think a private message would have been a better choice
as for exhale diving i sincerely don't think they can assure longer dives, comfort and safety (E. Fattah gives some strong advice on them in his document about mouthfill), but i will sure look for and read the posts you talk about, things may have changed, it would be nice to discuss with you on this later
i don't think i wrote something inaccurate nor misleading, as i do not recommend exhale dives to my students, not before they have almost perfect technique and great behavior in water
now, back on topic: the fact is, if you are looking for the right technique, you wouldn't try something harder to learn, nor something that cannot guarantee the same buoyancy conditions from dive to dive, like exhale dives
i'm proud
t) to say i'm really good in getting the static phase (especially in pool) with partial breaths, i agree it's not difficult to learn that, but an entire dive is something very different
first of all, i think a private message would have been a better choice
as for exhale diving i sincerely don't think they can assure longer dives, comfort and safety (E. Fattah gives some strong advice on them in his document about mouthfill), but i will sure look for and read the posts you talk about, things may have changed, it would be nice to discuss with you on this later
i don't think i wrote something inaccurate nor misleading, as i do not recommend exhale dives to my students, not before they have almost perfect technique and great behavior in water
now, back on topic: the fact is, if you are looking for the right technique, you wouldn't try something harder to learn, nor something that cannot guarantee the same buoyancy conditions from dive to dive, like exhale dives
i'm proud
t) to say i'm really good in getting the static phase (especially in pool) with partial breaths, i agree it's not difficult to learn that, but an entire dive is something very different
hmm not sure if i completely agree partial breath (that is FRC) if practised correctly can be far safer than full inhale diving, the chances of Black out are lower not to mention the bouyancy change at depth is less due to less variation in lung volume over the dive, it does take practise and you will have to start over again as far as depth is concerned but i really dont think we should be saying that partial lung diving is dangerous and that we chould always full lung dive.
personally i prefer very little weight (2kg at most) with a 3mm 2 piece suit and a 50% breath, nice relaxed descent with little bouyancy change and a comfortable ascent with out the need to kick HARD. as a note i'm not diving particularly deep no more than 30m in this way (not good enough to go deeper yet) but do find myself neutral at about 10m ish.
i do agree however that lighter the weight the better off you are in the long run and taking a course with an experienced instructor which has the qualifications to teach (not just a back yarder) will vastly improve both your technique, depth and enjoyment during the dive
DD
personally i prefer very little weight (2kg at most) with a 3mm 2 piece suit and a 50% breath, nice relaxed descent with little bouyancy change and a comfortable ascent with out the need to kick HARD. as a note i'm not diving particularly deep no more than 30m in this way (not good enough to go deeper yet) but do find myself neutral at about 10m ish.
i do agree however that lighter the weight the better off you are in the long run and taking a course with an experienced instructor which has the qualifications to teach (not just a back yarder) will vastly improve both your technique, depth and enjoyment during the dive
DD
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i don't want to start any flame upon exhale diving, but all strongest divers (Herbert, Carlos, Dave and so on) pack before diving (and no little pack: HUGE pack)
that is (my opinion) full breath guarantees the best performance
let's check for some more info and then we'll give those exhale dive threads a new, intense life
bye
that is (my opinion) full breath guarantees the best performance
let's check for some more info and then we'll give those exhale dive threads a new, intense life
bye
sgnips, you're putting out some ideas that make no sense and have been disproven many times.
Someone out for a day of rec diving should not be in a 5 or 7mm suit with no lead. Ridiculous. Not everyone is just training. A spearo with no lead? Please. What if I don't want to hunt at 40 metres in my 7mm suit (that\s what I'd need to get to, to be neutral)? What if I'm a reccreational freediver and I want to be able to relax at -5metres?
And FRC diving has shown it's benefits. Maybe read up on some of this stuff before making blanket statements!
I think you are probably a decent diver and mean well with your comments, but I don't believe you're thinking of the whole community of freedivers- as I said, not everyone here is in your training class.
Someone out for a day of rec diving should not be in a 5 or 7mm suit with no lead. Ridiculous. Not everyone is just training. A spearo with no lead? Please. What if I don't want to hunt at 40 metres in my 7mm suit (that\s what I'd need to get to, to be neutral)? What if I'm a reccreational freediver and I want to be able to relax at -5metres?
And FRC diving has shown it's benefits. Maybe read up on some of this stuff before making blanket statements!
I think you are probably a decent diver and mean well with your comments, but I don't believe you're thinking of the whole community of freedivers- as I said, not everyone here is in your training class.
not pretending to make a class here erik, just giving an opinion
just let me say your comment makes no sense: i never said it is always the best choice diving with no weight, just said this kind of diving is a good training
who minds a spearo with no weight? i'm not a spearo but experienced enough to know it's a nonsense: different weights for different activities (spearing, diving, deep diving, training, salted or fresh water... need to add more?), that's clear
as for frc dives, i've read some pages from this topic http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/78598-exhale-diving-average-diver-3.html but couldn't find any great benefit so far, lot of squeezes, instead, but please, let me read to the end and we'll talk on some basis
what i always wanted to say about frc (maybe my english doesn't make it that clear, sorry) is they are a good training for mouthfill, excellent warmup, especially before deep dives (suggested warmup for those who most suffer squeezing), but need more precautions than usual dives
i myself train frc when i have time and a good buddy
didn't want to offend anyone
just let me say your comment makes no sense: i never said it is always the best choice diving with no weight, just said this kind of diving is a good training
who minds a spearo with no weight? i'm not a spearo but experienced enough to know it's a nonsense: different weights for different activities (spearing, diving, deep diving, training, salted or fresh water... need to add more?), that's clear
as for frc dives, i've read some pages from this topic http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/78598-exhale-diving-average-diver-3.html but couldn't find any great benefit so far, lot of squeezes, instead, but please, let me read to the end and we'll talk on some basis
what i always wanted to say about frc (maybe my english doesn't make it that clear, sorry) is they are a good training for mouthfill, excellent warmup, especially before deep dives (suggested warmup for those who most suffer squeezing), but need more precautions than usual dives
i myself train frc when i have time and a good buddy
didn't want to offend anyone
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On training to go fast and economically strait down.
I and my buddy did practice our duck dives in a 3m pool a couple of months ago. What helped to get a sense of direction, while looking horizontal with the head in line with the swimming direction, is to hold a weight in the stretched out over head arms.
The arching back is usually a challenge with most divers, the result of looking down, causing serious misdirection and much wasted speed and energy through the various compensation moves.
You can play the game of target duck diving, where the goal is to fall, without a swimming movement, onto a target at the bottom.
The way you lift up you legs, one at a time or two makes a difference.
A little forward movement helps.
Dive 1,5m 'over' the line, and while getting deeper gradually swim towards it.
I like to 'roll' in, but the bending and speeds are to be taken into account.
It's always good to practice those basic, but vital skills every once in a while, and especially at the beginning of the season.
Now if I were to teach someone a duck dive, how should I go about?
I think the sense of direction is important to start with.
So some weight in hands, easy breath full lungs and target diving to maximum 5m.
Than gradually adding more technique refinement, less -compensation- movement is better.
Camera recordings are very helpful, because generally the diver's feeling doesn't reflect reality.
Anybody some good idea's how to teach a person how to do good duck dive?
Ending with a little personal story:
I remember when I was diving with my coach in a lake, and that after everybody left the water we continued training duck dives. When we got back to join the others, one asked why we spent so much time duck diving since every duck dive looked already perfect...
My coach replied there was still lot's of room for improvement.
In other words there is a lot that be improved though many wouldn't see what to improve.
Love, Courage and Water.
Kars
I and my buddy did practice our duck dives in a 3m pool a couple of months ago. What helped to get a sense of direction, while looking horizontal with the head in line with the swimming direction, is to hold a weight in the stretched out over head arms.
The arching back is usually a challenge with most divers, the result of looking down, causing serious misdirection and much wasted speed and energy through the various compensation moves.
You can play the game of target duck diving, where the goal is to fall, without a swimming movement, onto a target at the bottom.
The way you lift up you legs, one at a time or two makes a difference.
A little forward movement helps.
Dive 1,5m 'over' the line, and while getting deeper gradually swim towards it.
I like to 'roll' in, but the bending and speeds are to be taken into account.
It's always good to practice those basic, but vital skills every once in a while, and especially at the beginning of the season.
Now if I were to teach someone a duck dive, how should I go about?
I think the sense of direction is important to start with.
So some weight in hands, easy breath full lungs and target diving to maximum 5m.
Than gradually adding more technique refinement, less -compensation- movement is better.
Camera recordings are very helpful, because generally the diver's feeling doesn't reflect reality.
Anybody some good idea's how to teach a person how to do good duck dive?
Ending with a little personal story:
I remember when I was diving with my coach in a lake, and that after everybody left the water we continued training duck dives. When we got back to join the others, one asked why we spent so much time duck diving since every duck dive looked already perfect...
My coach replied there was still lot's of room for improvement.
In other words there is a lot that be improved though many wouldn't see what to improve.
Love, Courage and Water.
Kars
sqnips,
There is a lot of reading in the larger exhale diving threads, take your time. The "average diver" thread doesn't go so much into the theory of frc, which is really simple and logical, but so counter intuitive it was very hard for me to grasp. Check out what Sebastion Murat has to say. Some of it is heavy going because he has a hard time writing simply, but the meat is there if you work at it.
FRC happens to fit my kind of diving perfectly, laid back spearfishing and sightseeing with a bit of line diving thrown in. My comfortable limit on FRC is 80 ft(can't mouthfill) and I seldom go past 110 ft full lung. If extreme depth is your thing, packing and all that goes with it may be necessary. There are some other high intensity forms of diving where FRC doesn't seem to work, at least for me. For the kind of diving I usually do, frc gives me substantially longer, more comfortable dives. I come up much fresher than full lung and, on the rare occasions where I am pushing it, much more clear headed, also more clear headed at depth. Recovery times are shorter, even considering the deceptive feeling you get recovering from an frc dive. All this comports exactly with frc theory. Having been doing frc extensively for over a year, I'm quite certain that it makes for safer diving. Nice extra is being able to dive longer and get less tired.
None if the above is to suggest that doing frc wrong can't be dangerous. Dive with 1/2 a lungful, swim down hard, keep swimming and don't give your reflex time to kick in, and the diver might end up dead. At the very least it won't be a very good dive. FRC is a technique that takes practice and control. It doesn't fit all situations.
Connor
There is a lot of reading in the larger exhale diving threads, take your time. The "average diver" thread doesn't go so much into the theory of frc, which is really simple and logical, but so counter intuitive it was very hard for me to grasp. Check out what Sebastion Murat has to say. Some of it is heavy going because he has a hard time writing simply, but the meat is there if you work at it.
FRC happens to fit my kind of diving perfectly, laid back spearfishing and sightseeing with a bit of line diving thrown in. My comfortable limit on FRC is 80 ft(can't mouthfill) and I seldom go past 110 ft full lung. If extreme depth is your thing, packing and all that goes with it may be necessary. There are some other high intensity forms of diving where FRC doesn't seem to work, at least for me. For the kind of diving I usually do, frc gives me substantially longer, more comfortable dives. I come up much fresher than full lung and, on the rare occasions where I am pushing it, much more clear headed, also more clear headed at depth. Recovery times are shorter, even considering the deceptive feeling you get recovering from an frc dive. All this comports exactly with frc theory. Having been doing frc extensively for over a year, I'm quite certain that it makes for safer diving. Nice extra is being able to dive longer and get less tired.
None if the above is to suggest that doing frc wrong can't be dangerous. Dive with 1/2 a lungful, swim down hard, keep swimming and don't give your reflex time to kick in, and the diver might end up dead. At the very least it won't be a very good dive. FRC is a technique that takes practice and control. It doesn't fit all situations.
Connor
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No offense meant to anyone of course, just that information should be correct and distinct, otherwise it's taken verbatim.
Lots of new divers come here as it's THE resource on the net. Telling a brand new freediver that they should be diving without lead is not the best advice in my opinion.
By the way, I dive to 25 metres in a 7mm suit with 9kilos of weight when spearfishing. (and) But I don't recommend it for a new diver attempting to achieve his new personal best of 25 metres. (That statement informs everyone that it is not necessarily the best or only way to dive).
Salud,
Erik
Lots of new divers come here as it's THE resource on the net. Telling a brand new freediver that they should be diving without lead is not the best advice in my opinion.
By the way, I dive to 25 metres in a 7mm suit with 9kilos of weight when spearfishing. (and) But I don't recommend it for a new diver attempting to achieve his new personal best of 25 metres. (That statement informs everyone that it is not necessarily the best or only way to dive).
Salud,
Erik
erik mate i think there has been a little confusion here sgnibs said ,practice duck diving without a weight belt to improve his tecnique .he was using 9lbs to get down and not going down straight . speaking as a non spearo (yet) i too have always been taught to use as little weight as possible due to the fact its quite hard ,as a beginner, to get back up .
i think any advice she may have given may from the point of view of advising a beginner (dicouraging frc stuff ) as it is hard to control bouyancy (at first)
i personaly try not to give advice i always chicken out and try and direct them to some courses ,it leaves me with a clear conscience especialy seens i am only new to the sport , still in my wrapper , in fact
cheers bud
and good luck blueface
james
i think any advice she may have given may from the point of view of advising a beginner (dicouraging frc stuff ) as it is hard to control bouyancy (at first)
i personaly try not to give advice i always chicken out and try and direct them to some courses ,it leaves me with a clear conscience especialy seens i am only new to the sport , still in my wrapper , in fact
cheers bud
and good luck blueface
james
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I know what jay means about chickening out but I'm glad that some stick their neck out a little. It helps a great deal. There's a bunch of great stuff I learned from every one who posted here. Nothing could be better than direct instruction from an expert but until then I take what I can and try to be as safe as possible.
Thanks to all!
Thanks to all!
just some words from someone who is transitioning from beginner onwards: by reading too much here and not really testing, I spent a year with too little weight, struggling down. I would be neutral a -12 (i was spearfishing at about that). Now, with a Kg more, I am neutral at -9 or 10 and have great long dives. Practice and testing makes perfect.
BTW for some reason I always do the 2 fin duck dive, although the one fin looks more graceful (when others do it) it does not seem to sink me too much. I guess mine is:
- bend and waist, head down
- lift both legs straight up
- pull, as in breast stroke style, with free hand, then place same hand on nose and tuck elbow in
- stark kicking.
If I do it right both fins are completly submerged when starting to kick.
I must say though my more experienced buddies do the single leg (and follow with second) style and enter perfectly without a splash or sound. must learn.. must learn..
BTW for some reason I always do the 2 fin duck dive, although the one fin looks more graceful (when others do it) it does not seem to sink me too much. I guess mine is:
- bend and waist, head down
- lift both legs straight up
- pull, as in breast stroke style, with free hand, then place same hand on nose and tuck elbow in
- stark kicking.
If I do it right both fins are completly submerged when starting to kick.
I must say though my more experienced buddies do the single leg (and follow with second) style and enter perfectly without a splash or sound. must learn.. must learn..
Regarding sgnips posts I have to say something.
He´s an AA-Instructor. In AA courses they want you to work on your technique first. Depths or times don´t matter. And so you have to go into the sea without a weight belt for a few sessions per week.
Why do the do this? I´ve done two AA-stages so far. And yes, it´s quite hard diving without any weight at all. Ok, I´m wearing a Cressi Competition 2, 5mm all over. We had some guys who came to the no-weight sessions only in a 2,5 or 3 mm upper part of a suit. Ok, then it´s easy. But for me it was hard work. And so you´re simply forced to clean your technique. Otherwise your destroyed in the eveing. So; the better your duckdive is, the less exhausting it is to go deep. Your fins have to be in the water totally. Otherwise you´re kicking air and wasting energy.
No one from AA tells you to go for "normal diving" without weight (if you are diving in a suit). But they´re very very into the safety. So you´re told it´s better to use a bit less weight then to much.
Concerning diving without a full inhale;... hm. Why? Ok, if you´re going to 5 meters perhaps you feel uncomfortable with a stretched ribcage. Or you know that you won´t spend a long period down there. But if you´re going deeper, the problem of a stretched ribcage will be solved automatically thanks to the pressure. And concerning the time; I don´t know what you guys thinkg. But I personally feel uncomfortable diving without a full inhale. It´s a mental thing. It´s like there´s something in my mind, telling me all the time "You don´t have all the air you could have."
On the other hand, while static I like to inhale only to perhaps 85 or 90 %.
Duckdives;
whilst my first course we were taught to lie on the water. Then you perform an frogstyle armstroke. So you´re moving slightly forward in the water, your arms are alongside your body. Now you move your arms downwards into the water. This stops your forward movement, but at the same time it forces your upper body down into the water. Whithin this movement you bend your body into the water, stretch your legs completely. This pushes your body down. Your arms are already in the correct position. You have to wait a bit until your fins are completely in the water and then you can start to kick.
Last year another trainer told me the following. Lie on the water, hands in a forward-position. Now you perform a gentle dolphin-style movement. Also, if you´re using bi-fins. And now you have to think of a starting-jump in a swimming competition. So it´s one smooth move. It´s just like if you´re jumping into the water from the position at the beginning.
I personally can manage to do a better duckdive using this technique like if using the first one. It feels better. Whilst the first technique, you have the stopping moment while moving the arms downwards in the water. It works, of course. But I stops this, for me personally very important, feeling of an effortless descend.
He´s an AA-Instructor. In AA courses they want you to work on your technique first. Depths or times don´t matter. And so you have to go into the sea without a weight belt for a few sessions per week.
Why do the do this? I´ve done two AA-stages so far. And yes, it´s quite hard diving without any weight at all. Ok, I´m wearing a Cressi Competition 2, 5mm all over. We had some guys who came to the no-weight sessions only in a 2,5 or 3 mm upper part of a suit. Ok, then it´s easy. But for me it was hard work. And so you´re simply forced to clean your technique. Otherwise your destroyed in the eveing. So; the better your duckdive is, the less exhausting it is to go deep. Your fins have to be in the water totally. Otherwise you´re kicking air and wasting energy.
No one from AA tells you to go for "normal diving" without weight (if you are diving in a suit). But they´re very very into the safety. So you´re told it´s better to use a bit less weight then to much.
Concerning diving without a full inhale;... hm. Why? Ok, if you´re going to 5 meters perhaps you feel uncomfortable with a stretched ribcage. Or you know that you won´t spend a long period down there. But if you´re going deeper, the problem of a stretched ribcage will be solved automatically thanks to the pressure. And concerning the time; I don´t know what you guys thinkg. But I personally feel uncomfortable diving without a full inhale. It´s a mental thing. It´s like there´s something in my mind, telling me all the time "You don´t have all the air you could have."
On the other hand, while static I like to inhale only to perhaps 85 or 90 %.
Duckdives;
whilst my first course we were taught to lie on the water. Then you perform an frogstyle armstroke. So you´re moving slightly forward in the water, your arms are alongside your body. Now you move your arms downwards into the water. This stops your forward movement, but at the same time it forces your upper body down into the water. Whithin this movement you bend your body into the water, stretch your legs completely. This pushes your body down. Your arms are already in the correct position. You have to wait a bit until your fins are completely in the water and then you can start to kick.
Last year another trainer told me the following. Lie on the water, hands in a forward-position. Now you perform a gentle dolphin-style movement. Also, if you´re using bi-fins. And now you have to think of a starting-jump in a swimming competition. So it´s one smooth move. It´s just like if you´re jumping into the water from the position at the beginning.
I personally can manage to do a better duckdive using this technique like if using the first one. It feels better. Whilst the first technique, you have the stopping moment while moving the arms downwards in the water. It works, of course. But I stops this, for me personally very important, feeling of an effortless descend.
thanks dennis, really appreciated your words
i'd like to add we do not teach frc, we do not teach packing, nor reverse; inhale before static would preferably be 65-75% or so, and many other things, that focus on safety and relaxation during apnea
duckdives: we teach the first one, which seems to better perform, and the spearo variation with only one leg high
the only difference is the frogstyle armstroke should not make you move (we call that "neutral stroke") and is intended just to bring arms alongside your body (while bending at hips and approaching the vertical position), then we go on exactly like you described
i'd like to add we do not teach frc, we do not teach packing, nor reverse; inhale before static would preferably be 65-75% or so, and many other things, that focus on safety and relaxation during apnea
duckdives: we teach the first one, which seems to better perform, and the spearo variation with only one leg high
the only difference is the frogstyle armstroke should not make you move (we call that "neutral stroke") and is intended just to bring arms alongside your body (while bending at hips and approaching the vertical position), then we go on exactly like you described
Gabriele; Federico taught us version 1 of the duckdive in November 2007, after we didn´t manage to perform a proper duckdive using version 2. Yes, it helped. And it works, too, of course.
Last November Marco was my instructor. But as the instructors change Davide showed up at our group. And he tried to explain method 2 to us. And sometimes it just makes "click" in your brain, if you can visualize something right. And his explanation did this for me.
After all I realized, I was using very less weight. I had 3 kilos all the week, except the last two days. Then I used 4 kg. And I was still slightly positive at 20 meters.
Last November Marco was my instructor. But as the instructors change Davide showed up at our group. And he tried to explain method 2 to us. And sometimes it just makes "click" in your brain, if you can visualize something right. And his explanation did this for me.
After all I realized, I was using very less weight. I had 3 kilos all the week, except the last two days. Then I used 4 kg. And I was still slightly positive at 20 meters.