a crown is yet to be won, Osusim, but i'll work no that
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Describe mental phases of static apnea (Beware, LONG post!)
- Thread starterDrowned Fish
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Mommy look, threadjackers! Well I don't mind. I believe the thread went off-track somewhere in the original post anyway.
Not to risk getting on topic again, what's the differences between AA and AIDA certification? There are sure to be some, or there would be only one. Not counting the other, often more local certifications.
Not to risk getting on topic again, what's the differences between AA and AIDA certification? There are sure to be some, or there would be only one. Not counting the other, often more local certifications.
My mind did almost explode trying to contemplate the practical differences, but I was saved because of low bandwidth. So it's really like smelling the same fart with two different noses? Good to know
Osusim: I've heard those names before. Thanks!
Hi Drowned Fish,
Interesting posts.
I'm glad you found DB, you'll have hours of enjoyable and educational reading here, and you'll find some great buddies here.
From your static description it sounds like you are getting into a nice relaxed state before the breath-hold. With the onset of 'early contractions' it shows you're still getting used to higher CO2 levels. Training CO2 tables will help you to learn to stay relaxed longer. Also working on diaphragm, chest and general flexibility will help much to endure the effects of high CO2.
Your story about deep diving show to me your beginners' inability to relax diving deep. This has to do with a lot of factors. For me the way to get (back) into deep diving shape, is to have long, slow, relatively shallow, FRC dives. As I see it one needs bottom time to get used to the environment physically and mentally.
Finding a buddy may be a daunting endeavour, but maybe you can have your scuba club interested in a freediving introduction course given by a world-class athlete like Bjarte?
Surely they'll recognise the benefits in a more enjoyable dive experience and lower air consumption?
Another option is to find some local spearfisher men and team up.
I have no doubt that a well articulated person such as yourself can find a buddy.
I fully feel the same when you in a way say freediving is such a big part of you that abstinence is not an option. Not freediving makes me grumpy, irritated, loosing focus, feeling like a zombie.
Love, Courage and Water,
Kars
Interesting posts.
I'm glad you found DB, you'll have hours of enjoyable and educational reading here, and you'll find some great buddies here.
From your static description it sounds like you are getting into a nice relaxed state before the breath-hold. With the onset of 'early contractions' it shows you're still getting used to higher CO2 levels. Training CO2 tables will help you to learn to stay relaxed longer. Also working on diaphragm, chest and general flexibility will help much to endure the effects of high CO2.
Your story about deep diving show to me your beginners' inability to relax diving deep. This has to do with a lot of factors. For me the way to get (back) into deep diving shape, is to have long, slow, relatively shallow, FRC dives. As I see it one needs bottom time to get used to the environment physically and mentally.
Finding a buddy may be a daunting endeavour, but maybe you can have your scuba club interested in a freediving introduction course given by a world-class athlete like Bjarte?
Surely they'll recognise the benefits in a more enjoyable dive experience and lower air consumption?
Another option is to find some local spearfisher men and team up.
I have no doubt that a well articulated person such as yourself can find a buddy.
I fully feel the same when you in a way say freediving is such a big part of you that abstinence is not an option. Not freediving makes me grumpy, irritated, loosing focus, feeling like a zombie.
Love, Courage and Water,
Kars
Welcome Drowned Fish,
thumbs up for your general viewpoint on freediving in terms of safety, passion, and to your goal to support freediving through instructional acitivites. I myself started freediving april this year and am therefore am very newb to all this, so following statemants are not for granted :b
For lacking of apneaists even in a larger city and around (half million peepz) and even in the diving clubs I also started of my own exploring diving in pools and stone pits. Knowing safety gotta go first. Best thing is to have a competent buddy. There is certainly somewhat possible with a proper sense of safe and unsafe moves. Getting myself down to 17m deep (which isnt deep at all) slowly meter per meter... As student I will never ever be able to effort a FRV, but hey i might be lucky cause of getting a potential buddy in the future. Posting announces in Forums and local press worked somewhat. So two guys "joined" with some interests @apnea, and I hapilly share everything I have learned with reading/researching.
My maingoal is to have fun and enjoy the apnea's as much as possible. I dont wanna and will never break records ^_^
To my subjective static dry apnea: (5min15sec hold so far as longest; nothing special as others get far more)trainingmoves leading to it:
after hold: continue living
A side note: Sorry for bad ranges and inbetweens, but all I wanna do during dives is not to keep track of time. I Check start and end time, and well the contraction times because i made holds just until them and then watched it up. Whether pool or dry the best thing is to forget the time and just go ahead, and don't try to forget the time as it wont work. Best feelings are when the wall scared me for beeing suddenly there
To the 3 purges before hold: it pushes my first contraction from 1:30 to 2:15 or 2:30. Reading others holds i have realised a hold should be 1:1 as comfort:struggle at least. E.g. 3min hold has 1m30s comfort and 1m30s struggle. If its more comfort then struggle then oververntilating might have been the case imo. Thats basically why I suggest to not purge, or only if the struggle is the right amount.
@Kars: thx for your frog flow-thingy. I totally stole the idea and like to do it quite a lot...Its a really pure apnea-esk thing to me
long post is long... see yous
edit: the headword-list got lost while submitting so sorry about that :[
thumbs up for your general viewpoint on freediving in terms of safety, passion, and to your goal to support freediving through instructional acitivites. I myself started freediving april this year and am therefore am very newb to all this, so following statemants are not for granted :b
For lacking of apneaists even in a larger city and around (half million peepz) and even in the diving clubs I also started of my own exploring diving in pools and stone pits. Knowing safety gotta go first. Best thing is to have a competent buddy. There is certainly somewhat possible with a proper sense of safe and unsafe moves. Getting myself down to 17m deep (which isnt deep at all) slowly meter per meter... As student I will never ever be able to effort a FRV, but hey i might be lucky cause of getting a potential buddy in the future. Posting announces in Forums and local press worked somewhat. So two guys "joined" with some interests @apnea, and I hapilly share everything I have learned with reading/researching.
My maingoal is to have fun and enjoy the apnea's as much as possible. I dont wanna and will never break records ^_^
To my subjective static dry apnea: (5min15sec hold so far as longest; nothing special as others get far more)trainingmoves leading to it:
- Chest/Diaphragm/Breath exercises every day
- Relaxing once a day at least (autogene training);and before sleeping; coolest thing is to get a state between awake and sleeping and walking the edge like a knife; for few seconds dream pictures apper to me but still I can coincious decide to whether let go and fall asleep or stay in the mind or to bring me back
- CO2-Tables for a couple days then rest days (executionwise like efattah promotes it)
- calm down and dot the daily practised autogene training exercise to get in the mood (will be something between 5 and 10 min; not sure because the mood not the clock matters)
- just calm breathing like your body demands it and is closed as sitting on your couch and watch tv (granted u have tv, i don't :blackeye)
- making 3 deep purges with passive exhales (dont instantcopy its person specific i suppose)
- take the full (belly,sides,chest) inhale and make sure the clock counts ^_^
- 0-2min: is still comfort feeling and I "walk" down my body relaxing muscles and most important fingers and toes! toes you say thats nuts they dont move anyways, but really try it; you'll get a prickle feeling if you try because they are just used to be tensed alle the time no matter what; the heartrate spiked up a bit but I ignore it since it keeps beating itself most times
- getting close to 2min I feel CO2 bulding up little; its a semi warm feeling expanding over the whole chest; for me it leads to an urge "to move" which means to expand the chest(ribcage may be the correct workd?)
- somwhere between 2min and 2min30sec: through relaxing i'll let the expand urge accumulate till i cant resist anymore which is around 2min30sec. Then i'll happily do it, feel how the heartrate drops an extra bit (maybe 20bps?), and feel more comfort up from there. I guess this urge helps ventilate your air in the lungs better for resorption purpose. Which contractions do too.
- 2min30sec+: the expanding leads into an proper and strong contraction of the diaphragm. Times between those events around 2 to more seconds. It is best to extra relax after a contraction before the expansion has to happen again. Also, not just to expand and then immediately have the contraction happen, but rather relax it a bit out to make it fluctuate at the highest point. This pushes the static quite some time i noticed
- 4min-5min: all what happens until then is frequence of mentioned events and how fast they follow each other. In this intervall contractions become a constant event for me (like one per second); usuall the point where no more relaxing thought gets a grip :b and I just let it happen; have to open my eyes either to feel somewhat comfi; sitting myself up and look around; rarely walk around; whatever works as distraction for you is best
- 5min+: the point of releasing the constant tension and doing the recovery breathes like Erez Beatus propose it:HTML:
http://vimeo.com/2060317
after hold: continue living
A side note: Sorry for bad ranges and inbetweens, but all I wanna do during dives is not to keep track of time. I Check start and end time, and well the contraction times because i made holds just until them and then watched it up. Whether pool or dry the best thing is to forget the time and just go ahead, and don't try to forget the time as it wont work. Best feelings are when the wall scared me for beeing suddenly there
To the 3 purges before hold: it pushes my first contraction from 1:30 to 2:15 or 2:30. Reading others holds i have realised a hold should be 1:1 as comfort:struggle at least. E.g. 3min hold has 1m30s comfort and 1m30s struggle. If its more comfort then struggle then oververntilating might have been the case imo. Thats basically why I suggest to not purge, or only if the struggle is the right amount.
@Kars: thx for your frog flow-thingy. I totally stole the idea and like to do it quite a lot...Its a really pure apnea-esk thing to me
long post is long... see yous
edit: the headword-list got lost while submitting so sorry about that :[
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My mind did almost explode trying to contemplate the practical differences, but I was saved because of low bandwidth. So it's really like smelling the same fart with two different noses? Good to know
Osusim: I've heard those names before. Thanks!
It might be a misconception of Cause and Effect.
Some guys thought do dive slowly (taking 40 seconds for a 18m lap and then surcafe) makes it an apnea. But thats wrong. Your not doing apnea because of swimming slowly. The truth is your swimming slowly because of doing an apnea ;D
*true fact out of my diving club whilst their weekly exercise*
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AA teaches you how to dive and at the same time how to relax and enjoy your dives
don't know about AIDA
back on topic, this is my path in static (for a comp, or max attempt):
1- about 5 mins relaxing and concentrating
2- usually 3 warmup holds, increasing time: first just relaxing, coming out after few contractions (2 to 3 mins overall), second pushing a little bit, trying to extend relaxation through contractions (2'30 to 4), third even more relaxed, contractions beginning after 3' or so, enjoying the walk over 4', maybe 5'
3- another 5 to 10 mins relaxing and meditating, soft breathing, eyes closed, very close to sleep
4- max attempt: 3 to 4' trying losing consciousness, thinking about how easy it is, how beautiful is the darkness, i try to feel my body falling
then something happens and i awake, this is the moment i want to feel my strenght and i keep repeating "i am relaxed, calm, and serene", but i am also "strong, indestructible" and so on
i'm around 5', contractions growing, i have to decide what to do and say "hi ms contraction, how's life? thanks for what you do, you're asking me to stop, but i'm here to do more, please follow me"
6', feelings turn better and i can enjoy them again, even if it doesn't lasts much (20-30")
over 6'30, suffering, i speak again to myself "i am strong, i know when to come out, i only have to do it, anytime i want, i can choose the moment, let's choose another... another..." until i feel it's over
5- after the attempt: read back, write down feeling before, during the static, after it, then read back again, find what worked and what did not
I've had hours of enjoyable and educational time in this thread alone, so I don't think some more is unlikely.
Relaxed would be only the beginning. I fell asleep at the first try even though it wasn't even afternoon, but yes I think you're correct. I'm still a CO2 wuss. I think I give CO2 tables an honest shot. But can you describe how much better it may get? The worst moment on my PB static I would rate 14/10, where 10 is the worst I ever believed possible before getting familiar with the world of apnea. Some wake-up, believe me :blackeye
I believe I know what you mean. I actually feel really comfortable down there, but I think that my subconcious is forcing me up because of not having a buddy watching over me. Knowing that a SWB most likely wouldn't be more than an inconvenience with a well-trained buddy around might mean everything in terms of performance.
The local scuba club might be a good starting point. I'm beginning to get to know a few in the bubbler community and most of them have at some point or another been doing low-lever freediving or snorkelling. Anyway, soon arrives a winter with other things needing to be done, so I'll probably try to get some couching from mr. Wonka in Phuket in march/april on a long-planned backpacking trip. If I'm lucky I'll arrive home with AIDA**** tattooed on my buttcheeks.
Good to know that I'm not alone. Well, I never really believed that either. I think that freedivers in general might be quite like-minded on that area.
/Ronny
Hi kanthand!
Thanks a lot for your in-depth (pun not intended) summary of your apnea and reflections around your techniques, and your thoughts about freediving in general of course.. It seems that you are doing well with what little you've got. I'm sure as you get deeper (pun still not intended) into the diving communities where you live you will soon have 6 buddies, 3 trained safety divers and one professional instructor keeping you safe as you progress.
Unlike you I actually has a TV, but I'm never using it. I just bought it because I didn't have one the last six years of my life as a student. But I could try watching my computer. Something relaxing is bound to be found there.
By the way, 5m15s can't be too bad knowing that you've only been freediving for 7 months. My ambition is to push 5 minutes in... like ever.
That is bulls**t! I downloaded the vid, made multiple copies on an external HDD which I then took to my local pawn broker telling him that it was pure gold and that he could have it for $12.000. I was almost beaten with a moss covered walking stick!
Ok, kidding aside, that was actually one of the first freediving instructional movies I did see but thanks for bringing it back up. I picked up a lot of missed stuff.
/Ronny
I believe you would have trouble making a layman understand that, but I do think I'm beginning to grasp it. A little.
Thanks for this insight. It's interesting to see how you are focusing on the mental control. Considering that you are meditating and extremely relaxed before your max I do believe that you are doing a lower form of self-suggestion. Many forms of meditation, like yoga, brings the mind pretty close to self-hypnosis although (for most individuals) some other steps are needed to complete an induction.
That's where things might become interesting. Normally there's a barrier between the consciousness and sub-consciousness to make us unable making direct changes to our sub-consciousness. This is obviously to protect us from ourselves, so to say. During self-hypnosis/self-suggestion the barrier is weakened enough that one can self-suggest conscious thoughts into the sub-conscious mind. Being able to force the unconsciousness into raising the CO2 tolerance might open up some no-nonsense doors.
I'm pretty sure that many of the top level freedivers knowingly or unknowingly reach an induction level strong enough to let them push through it.
Advanced self-hypnosis users are even known to override physiological functions. Not only the usual slowing heart rate, but sense of smell, sensitivity to ordinary pain and blood-shunting (manual diving reflex for christmas anyone?) to mention some. I'm not doing self-hypnosis myself, but I have tried and succeeded at some level.
For the average freediver I'm pretty sure that the trouble is not worth it, but meditation is not that different and a lot easier. Many even say it's the same, and they are not very wrong.
Just my $2 and late evening ramble
/Ronny
I think you are, reading from your static description I think you're suggesting things to your bodyparts.
I my book any self suggestion, or more precise - any talking to the subconscious self is hypnosis. Autogenic suggestion is self-hypnosis in my mind.
It's a big part of freediving and I like to believe every freediving education makes use of it.
On the CO2 tolerance training benefits, is simple you'll learn to stay relaxed better with higher amounts. Because or your better relaxation, less muscle tension, less O2 consumption, lest CO2 production, resulting in more comfortable dives and/or longer dives. Grace from England had great results from doing CO2 tables a few times a week, she went very quicky to a pb over 4 minutes.
I would love to know the difference in possibilities for low-level vs complete induction. Seeing as freediving is a very young sport/lifestyle I think we have only just scratched the surface of the mental aspect of it. Heck, we've only scratched the surface of modern knowledge of the human mind, so who knows how far we're still to go?
What I did during the 20 minutes prep before my max is basically one of the lowest forms of self-suggestion. Physically it is much the same as sleep paralysis, only conciously induced. Both are blocking muscle control (unless control is forcefully regained) and oxygen usage is effectively reduced to basal metabolic rate oxygen consumption. It also helps relaxing deeply. (and it is quite funny to try to move after completing the process)
I'm looking forward to increase my CO2 tolerance, but I would love to find out where my physical limit in STA is in my current form.
Is it even possible for beginners to push themselves even close to blackout (without hyperventilation of course)?
How far can an average guy with a normal activity level, quite a few pounds of extra "starvation salvation" likely keep conscious before blackout? Individual differences plays an important part, but we're talking about Average Joe here.
Indeed and it is introducing something extremely attractive to the freediving activity for me. Coming from competetive Jiu Jitsu to Table Tennis to Volleyball, nothing compares to the mental meditative state of an apnea that makes up like 90% of the whole thing. And how this mental state is affecting the whole rest of the day rather then just the dives. Find peace in yourself as you won't find it elsewere else (freely Rochefoucauld).
Speaking of good mental states:
HTML:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ngykt27WgwWill be interesting to see. There are even experts fighting about full inhale vs. FRC diving and which is better. What moves are best for diving responses and so on....
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Couple of points: I know the whole going no deeper on your own thing has already been mentioned, but don't forget that SWBO is caused by a drop in partial pressures of O2 in the lungs, and that the pressure change from 10m to the surface is half so this is the big step on pO2.
Also the CO2 tolerance: this can be trained / the receptors in the blood vessels / brain can be desensitised. This is seen in patients with some respiratory conditions. The CO2 sensors don;t work at all to trigger breathing and only O2 sensors trigger breathing.
Also the CO2 tolerance: this can be trained / the receptors in the blood vessels / brain can be desensitised. This is seen in patients with some respiratory conditions. The CO2 sensors don;t work at all to trigger breathing and only O2 sensors trigger breathing.
I think you meant the last sentence in respect to those respiratory patients? How do they determine when to breath? How does their 'urge to breath' feel?
For normal people CO2 is the main driver of the urge to breath I was taught. One could simply turn the O2 off and have a normal CO2 and the person would not feel a faint much of coming, other that some tiredness, sleepiness, light headedness. Is this correct, if not what is correct and why?